Anybody know any good ones? I'm checking out lulu.com, but I'm sure there's better ones out there. Although I do like lulu.com because it reminds my of Printfection. Still, any suggestions?

By they way, I've never published a book before, just so you know.

why do you want to self-publish, instead of trying to get a paying publisher to take on your book?

are you prepared to have to do all the promotion and marketing of your book?... and do you realize that pod's like lulu set such a high price on the books that few beyond friends and family will want to pay that much for a paperback?...

i suggest you go to preditor & editors and look up the listings there for lulu and other vanity publishers, plus google for feedback and check out their websites, before making a decision...

http://www.invirtuo.cc/prededitors/

love and hugs, maia

I'd agree with Maia to be honest. Self-publishing is called vanity publishing for a reason- it is almost exclusively for people who only want to see their work in print. Cases of publishers picking up authors based on self published work are very rare. Just be sure this is what you want, before you jump in.

An alternate opinion...

http://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=8138&page=3

.....NaCl

I have signed with a literary agent and things are moving along quickly for me.
started about 3 weeks ago and now I am working with the editor they suggested and while I am doing that the agent is picking which publishers to send the end product to.
I figure I don't know what I am doing since this is the first time I have attempted to have others look at my work I will go with the people who know what they are doing and they can do the leg work. I wouldn't know where to have my legs start and am willing to admit it.

getting an agent is, of course, the best way to go, since they can get you a better deal with a publisher and handle all the details for you... and most publishers prefer dealing with agents... some publishers do take on unagented writers, but i'd always advise doing all you can to get an agent, first...

lessa... congrats on landing one!... i hope you 'vetted' the agency carefully before signing... which one is it?... and what does 'working with' the agent entail?...

Writers Literary & Publishing Services
and I work with the children's books side of it.
they listed all the types they are agents for.

Very few of the agents even bothered to answer my questions and those were on the phone but this company answered questions sent me all sorts of information (that I hadn't even considered asking for,)
They sent my story for a critique and then told me the publishers preference for having a professional editor working with the author for at least the first book and sent my story to Mark and he will be doing the editing keeping in close touch with email and phone calls. I hope more emails since then I have a chance to consider without him breathing down my neck.
The agent Hilary is already making a list of publishers to send my book to so that is making me feel rather positive.

I am also starting another Albert adventure I think it will be him learning things about human children through the internet.
Anything to get children to try new things is sort of my goal that and making them stretch their imaginations.
Who knows I may walk into a library some day and find a book I have written.

oh, dear!... i'm so sorry to have to tell you that's one of the biggest vanity publishing scammers out there... they're part of 'the literary agency group' and p&e, sfwa, and absolute write all warn writers about the parent company and all of its parts...

Writers Literary & Publishing Services Company, The (aka Writer's Literary Critique Division): Not recommended. A vanity publisher operated by The Literary Agency Group.

http://www.invirtuo.cc/prededitors/pebw.htm

New York Literary Agency, The: Strongly not recommended. Also a Top Twenty worst according to Writer Beware. A literary agency. A division of The Literary Agency Group.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:NCIivVrb-1MJ:www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D13517+%22the+literary+agency+ group%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

Writers' Literary Agency & Marketing Company (formerly The Literary Agency Group)

The Literary Agency Group, a business controlled by Robert M. Fletcher of Boca Raton, Florida, changed its name in February 2007 to Writers' Literary Agency & Marketing Company (a.k.a. WLA or WL Writers' Literary Agency).

This umbrella group includes the following:
WL Children's Agency
WL Poet's Agency
WL Screenplay Agency
Writers' Literary & Publishing Services Company (the editing arm of the above-mentioned agencies)
Other names the business has used include Sydra-Techniques, ST Literary Agency, Stylus Agency, Christian Literary Agency, Children's Literary Agency, New York Literary Agency, Poet's Literary Agency, The Screenplay Agency, and My Editor Is A Saint.

Since the business began operating in 2001 under the name Sydra-Techniques, Writer Beware has received hundreds of complaints and advisories of fee-charging, editing referrals, and other questionable practices. We're not aware that the company has a significant track record of commercial book sales under any of its names.

Writers who have had trouble with Robert M. Fletcher or any of the above-named businesses, and who are or were residents of the state of Florida, please get in touch with Ann Crispin at anncrispin@aol.com (or beware@sfwa.org, if the AOL address bounces), even if you have previously contacted her. Please provide complete contact information. Thanks for your cooperation.

http://www.sfwa.org/BEWARE/general.html



i wish i didn't have to be the one to pop your balloon, lessa, but i'd hate even more to see you taken by one of the worst creeps around... robert fletcher should be behind bars, along with all who work for him...

when you go looking for a real agent, make sure the ones that you approach are legit, by checking them out at the above sites, before going any further... then, check out their websites carefully, especially the contract info, as one can usually tell a scammer by his own words and appearance... here's one telling bit:

They sent my story for a critique and then told me the publishers preference for having a professional editor working with the author for at least the first book

the first part of this is not what any legit agent will do and the second part is an outright lie, as it's not true of any legit publisher... i hope you haven't paid any money to this outfit... and i strongly urge you to cancel your contract with them asap, demand your work be returned to you stat...

feel free to email me for more info on how to find a good, legit agent, if you want...

love and consoling hugs, maia
maia3maia@hotmail.com

Lessa,

I am one who sees self-publishing as a legitimate way to put one's writing into the market place.

BUT!!!

Most of the true POD and Vanity Press companies, are liars...plain and simple. They sell a dream to starry-eyed hopefuls, until they have extracted all the fees thay can. It is not about selling your book; it's only about selling their services.

When I read your post identifying the "literary agency", I got in touch with them. Filled out their little summary request and sent it in. Within 24 hours (just as they promised) I got the email asking for the entire manuscript so they can "assess" my writing abilities. Imagine my thrill when they asked me for a lot of detail about my manuscript and for an electronic copy of the whole 140,000 document. NOT! Of course, they educated me about the importance of good "editing", before it goes out for publisher review....etc.

My point is, they don't really have a clue about the quality of my writing and they are already "managing" my career. I got the overwhelming feeling that these folks are totally BOGUS!

And, this is coming from someone who believes self-publishing is a reasonable alternative. But, I see a big difference between true self-publishing and these companies that sell a false dream. Be careful! Write NO checks! And, make sure you sign no contract giving them ANY rights to your book. Once they have your manuscript under contract, its NOT yours anymore!

Respectfully,

.....NaCl

OK here is my take on this.
I am putting it down to a learning experience.
It cost me $200 to get the lesson.
My story has gone to the editor so I will see
what they have to say.
If he helps my writing then it was money well spent.
If he doesn't then it will be a lesson well learned.
This is the first board I have ever felt comfortable
writing my stories in.
It is fun to have others read them and help me improve them.
So I am just learning to walk now and I will fall down a few times.
I have my husband Don and my son Domoviye to you but Danny to me
backing me up 100% and all the friends I have made here.
So if my experience turns out really badly I may come here and cry not
for the loss of the money not for being taken as a fool but for support
and a shoulder.
I have been married for 32 years my children are on their own now. My husband
has a very well paying job and the only bills we have are for fun things. House
is paid for cars are paid for so for now money goes for hobbies and this is one
of my favourites.
Most of the writers here are in university or high school with minimum paying jobs.
You could not afford to be taken in like I was.
So I will pay the price and get the word out to all of you wonderful writers so you
don't make the same mistakes.
I know Dom certainly would be eating homemade soup or kraft dinner or those noodles for quite a while if he made this mistake.
I do not want any of you to have to do that.
I am a mom and when I meet young people I sort of treat them like they were my own kids.
I lecture, I joke, I scold but most of all I care.
Maia is here so ask her advice.
before you make a big decision come and talk with someone here.
PM or open forum that is what this family is about, caring and helping each other.
So let them, like me they may have made the mistake and now know how to keep
others from making the same one.
It may help your ego, your pocket book, and your life style.
just some info and warnings from a mom.

Wise words, lessa.

Aww, i'm really sorry to hear about what might be happening Lessa. I hope that the are doing things legitimately, but if not then i'm sorry. Glad to see you're staying positive.

Kit Albert Einstien was a very intelligent man.

What a sorry world we would have if we never made mistakes.

my brother is a minister and once he stood up in his church and said simply
we have taken away our children's greatest honour.
silence of shock until he added
we have taken away their right to fail.

To me that is so true.
we have to fail in order to succeed.
if we don't make mistakes or fail
we will never know what real success is.
It can't be handed to you on a platter with a glass of fine wine.
you have to earn it or it isn't really yours.

Don't ever be afraid of making mistakes or falling down.
There is always someone around to offer advice and support.
So I hope everyone learns from their mistakes and their missteps.
It will hurt for a while but it will make you stronger.

i'm happy to see you taking it so well, sweetieheart!... it was a costly lesson, but thankfully won't put a major dent in your budget...

just please keep in mind that NO legit agent will EVER ask for a penny before they sell your work and then, they'll take their commission off the top... read all the info on agents you'll find on that p&e site, before going hunting for one again, ok?

http://www.invirtuo.cc/prededitors/pubagent.htm

and to all who read this thread:
LEARN the ways of the BUSINESS end of writing, before approaching anyone who offers a contract of any kind... and NEVER sign a contract without having YOUR OWN literary attorney look it over first...

love and hugs, maia [mom of many]

As a young man...yes, long ago...I heard the expression, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." It didn't make sense to me then, but it may be the perfect cliché right now.

A lot of hopeful writers get hoodwinked by companies like this, all the while, the aspiring author thinks he or she is accomplishing something good. Yet, their money feeds the monster, allowing it to continue finding victims...naive people chasing the hope (false hope) of a publishing contract that waits just around the corner.....ALWAYS.....just around the corner.

I won't bug you again about this...just wanted to point out to the general public that a decision to use one of these companies effects others as well. I hope you get at least your $200 worth of value in "professional" editing. Good luck!

.....NaCl

NaCl, the problem was she sent them the money two days before discovering the problem. So she will let them do whatever they want with what they have right now. If they ask for more she'll politely refuse.
Its trying to make the best of a bad situation. Because that money is as good as gone now. The thieves will have to be happy with the money they have because she will not send them anymore.
Normally I'd let Lessa answer this, but she's asleep and I've talked it over with her.

mom of many. glad it applies to someone else as well as me.
I have about 10 young adults who still call across the grocery store "Hi mom" even
while walking there with their real moms. I figure I fed them while they were teens so
they were mine for life. The parents get the problems and I got the fun of having them around.
Back to the agent thing.
they didn't ask money up front so I figured ok.
they explained that an editor was pretty much necessary so that sounded reasonable.
my CFO (take that as husband) sent the money by pay pal since it would be a pro's eyes view. Which it still will be if I get to see it.
We have done many different things in our life together but we have always had one rule. Never spend more than you can stand to lose. I think that is the good gamblers creed. But it makes sense..
They have the contract for the one story. So all I have to do is read what they want to do with it and if I don't like it then I tell them no. If they get enough no's they will give up.
I have many other stories and I will definetly keep up writing them and finding a way for little kids to enjoy them.
That is my dream and I will never give up on that.
Money is insidental with my stories, fame is not even on the horizon.
I just want kids to be able to enjoy my stories as much as I enjoy writing them.
If my experience can save even one member here from being taken in then that is wonderful and worth the costs to me.
Domoviye certainly found a wonderful place and I am glad that he loves me enough to open a place of his own to his mother.
luv and hugs mom to many.

As a young man...yes, long ago...I heard the expression, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." It didn't make sense to me then, but it may be the perfect cliché right now.

A lot of hopeful writers get hoodwinked by companies like this, all the while, the aspiring author thinks he or she is accomplishing something good. Yet, their money feeds the monster, allowing it to continue finding victims...naive people chasing the hope (false hope) of a publishing contract that waits just around the corner.....ALWAYS.....just around the corner.

I won't bug you again about this...just wanted to point out to the general public that a decision to use one of these companies effects others as well. I hope you get at least your $200 worth of value in "professional" editing. Good luck!

.....NaCl

NaCl
A dream is never a false hope.
It is a dream that you carry around with you to build upon.
It carries you through bad times and adds to the good.
Sure there will be set backs but the dream is still there shining maybe not brightly all the time but there to think about.
It gives you something to strive for.

So I goofed. So the company that attempts to make money from my dream gets a bit more in their coffers.
I know they will use it to pay for more ads for the poor authors who took the wrong turn and ended with up with the same company. There is little I can do except warn others to avoid them.
That does not mean I will give up and sit in my office or on my swing outside and say I will never try again.
I will get up brush my stories off and send them to other agents who are the step up for the dreams.
I have hundreds of stories running around in my head and someday probably sooner than later now that I was taken in.
I do not get angry I get even.
I will have my stories published and that will in my own mind rub the companies nose in it.
They could have had a great deal of success with me and they have blown that chance to have money added to their coffers.
It will now go to a legitimate caring company.
So now that I have had a good cry
a lot of good support
I will get on with what I do best.
I will improve the stories I have already written
I will get them published
I will write more stories
And I will not get angry
I will get even.
it is a win win situation.

My dreams will never be taken away from me by non dreamers.
My dad couldn't do it.
My mother couldn't do it.
Teachers couldn't do it.
and that was when I was alone in the world.
Now with my husband my two children my grandchildren.
There is no way in hell a stupid company can do it.

Dreams are our salvation.

I'm not looking for self-publishing for vanity. It's just that it seems much simpler to deal with and I really can't afford all those professional publishing contracts and stuff like that. And I don't wanna have to give up the rights to my story as some firms make you do, or at least I've heard they do.

So unless there's a pro firm that's affordable and doesn't take my copyright, I just want a good self-publisher.

Kylo check out the sites that maia has listed.
I am sure you will find ones that fit your bill.
good luck which ever you decide.

mom of many. glad it applies to someone else as well as me.
I have about 10 young adults who still call across the grocery store "Hi mom" even
while walking there with their real moms. I figure I fed them while they were teens so
they were mine for life. The parents get the problems and I got the fun of having them around.

actually, i meant that literally, as i have 7 kids and 18 grandkids [at last count], in addition to their friends during childhood, who considered our home as their own [or preferable to same], along with the thousands of 'mentees' who've 'adopted' me over the years i've been helping aspiring writers and other in-need folks, that make it 'figuratively' true, too... ;-)


Back to the agent thing.
they didn't ask money up front so I figured ok.
they explained that an editor was pretty much necessary so that sounded reasonable.
my CFO (take that as husband) sent the money by pay pal since it would be a pro's eyes view. Which it still will be if I get to see it.

i would take it with a hefty dose of salt when it arrives, since they're not known for hiring top-level reviewers...

They have the contract for the one story. So all I have to do is read what they want to do with it and if I don't like it then I tell them no. If they get enough no's they will give up.

you can [and should!] nullify that contract right now... if you want some help to do this, let me know, as i've helped folks get out of bad contracts with 'baddies' of all sorts, including the nefarious publishamerica!...

I have many other stories and I will definetly keep up writing them and finding a way for little kids to enjoy them.

why don't you submit some of them to children's magazines?... if you can make a name for yourself in that realm, getting books published will be a lot easier...

if i can be of any help whatsoever, please don't hesitate to drop me a line any time...

love and hugs, your 'sister-mother'
maia3maia@hotmail.com

Kylo,

I'm not looking for self-publishing for vanity. It's just that it seems much simpler to deal with and I really can't afford all those professional publishing contracts and stuff like that. And I don't wanna have to give up the rights to my story as some firms make you do, or at least I've heard they do.

So unless there's a pro firm that's affordable and doesn't take my copyright, I just want a good self-publisher.

A legitimate publisher doesn't make you give up rights to your story. They pay you for them. They may pay you per word or a flat rate for first print/electronic rights to a story.

They may pay you royalties and/or an advance your novel, and in return you receive (levels vary for all of the following depending on the publisher)professional editing, distribution, marketing, ARCs and reviews, etc...and the potential of having wider distribution and earning more income from your work than you would otherwise. When the novel goes out of print (or some other limiting factor), the rights revert back to you, the author.

The goal is for both you and the publisher to distribute as widely and sell as many books as possible...and both make money and walk away happy. If you're a good/successful author, a publisher would want to keep you happy.

If you're approached by a publisher that 'takes your rights' or does not properly compensate you, the author--through a bad contract for example, then move on.

It's best to check them--publishers and agents--out (many places besides P&E) before signing and never sign anything you don't understand. Never signing something you don't understand is a rule to live by--leases, loans, whatever--period.

Terry

I'm not looking for self-publishing for vanity. It's just that it seems much simpler to deal with and I really can't afford all those professional publishing contracts and stuff like that. And I don't wanna have to give up the rights to my story as some firms make you do, or at least I've heard they do.

So unless there's a pro firm that's affordable and doesn't take my copyright, I just want a good self-publisher.

I share your feelings. I decided some time ago to be an entrepeneur and sell my own stories. My first novel is at the printers now and will be on the market next month. It runs 137,000 words and 440 pages in 5 1/2x 8 inch size paperback.

Here are the things I had to do:

1. Establish a "company" to operate on my behalf. Applied for a business license ($120), established bank account ($6000 initial deposit), applied for "Resale Permit" ($100 - this invloves collection of sales tax in California and allows me to pay printers on a wholesale basis, instead of retail), set up stationery, accounting and adequate work space for book storage as my other company (all "free" through my existing company).

2. Registered my publishing company with the Library of Congress and Bowkers (free). Purchased my own book of ISBN numbers ($245).

3. Book cover: Purchased book-cover layout and design software...$250 - one time expense. Graphic artist $900-1300.

4. Editing: I hired a local independent editor with 15 yrs experience in the publishing industry. ($400) This is very important if you decide to self-publish. Editors do not have any emotional investment in your story and they help you objectively "look" at the work...yes, it was painful! LOL!

5. Printing & binding: I shopped all over the USA and Canada. When I got my best quote, I took it to a local printer and they were willing to match the price so I am actively involved in the page lay-out and print editing process. Print cost for 1,000 books, $3,400. Binding cost for perfect binding, $800. These costs are for perfect binding and extra paper cost to add more "white space" on the pages...makes for easier reading. Shipping is free because I managed to get the local printer...BTW - they showed me numerous other books they produced and I was satisfied with their quality.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Up to this point, we're talking about creating a real book. Now, we need to talk about developing sales. Do the math yourself.

I priced the book at $12.99 retail. This gives me lots of wiggle room to lower price and still be very profitable. My cost per thousand for the first 1000 is about $5.50 per book (this was my goal price). If I am fortunate enough to print future editions, the reprints will average $4.00 per book because I have already amortized the costs of the book cover art, printing layout and editing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now, for marketing...it's not free either.

Website for my new company: $2000 initial cost with ecommerce capability and professional management. Less than $100 per month thereafter for hosting.

Webpage dedicated to the new book (with its own URL): $300 plus fees for graphic art...this cost is already covered in the original graphic art done for the cover.

PayPal account: No appreciable cost to setup but ongoing costs as a function of sales.

Yahoo payment account: same as PayPal

Amazon Books outlet...don't have the specifics yet, but I was told to expect around 30% of retail price. That means I still make around $3.00 per book profit.

Traditional book stores: Book brokers want 10% and the brick'n mortar stores ask for 40%. On a $13 dollar book, that still leaves me a profit but their "unsold return" policies frighten me so I don't expect to use this resource much.

Pre-sales: Because I have an established readership frm my years of magazine writing, I contact many of my fans and provided copies of the cover art and synopsis to stimulate immediate sales. I expect the first 200 books to sell overnight. Then, sales will fall off until my promotional activities generate more interest. I already have contacts with several local reading clubs...they love having authors speak to them. I also have a local talk-radio show that has invited me to visit. Now, I need a contact at Oprah!!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There you go. This is true self-publishing. No POD. NO vanity press. Just a writer who is willing to put his own $$$ at risk...classic entrepeneur.

.....NaCl

i have to ask... how do you expect to sell enough paperbacks at 13 bucks, to cover all those costs, when best-selling pb's by major well-known novelists cost only half that much?...

i have to ask... how do you expect to sell enough paperbacks at 13 bucks, to cover all those costs, when best-selling pb's by major well-known novelists cost only half that much?...

It's roughly the size of a trade paperback. Discounted (such as at Amazon.com or bookstores that mark best sellers down 10-15%), they sell for $10 to $12. Regular price is about $13 to $15. Some small publishers who rely on POD vs Offset print runs, sell the equivalent for $14 to $18 and are sometimes discounted (on Amazon.com for example).

So the overall coverprice isn't really out of line as far as I can tell.

Looking right on my shelf at the trade paperbacks in front of me:

Carry Me Home by Sandra Kring (260 pgs) retails $13.00 (Bantam/Dell)
The Book of Bright Ideas by S. King (307 pgs) retail $13.00 (Bantam/Dell)
The Book of Jhereg by Steven Brust (480 pgs) retail $16.00 (Ace)
Silenced Cry by Marta Stephens (279 pgs) $15.50 retail (BeWrite Books)
Memory of a Murder by Earl Staggs (265 pgs) retail $13.95 (Cornell Maritime Publishers)
Seven ArchAngels: Annihilation by Jane Lebak (271 pgs) retail 19.99 (Double-Edged Publishing)
Distant Passages Vol 2 -Anthology- (236 pgs) retail $17.99 (Double-Edged Publishing)
Loose Cannons and Other Weapons of Mass Political Destruction by J.D. Elder (256 Pgs) retail $18.50 (Lulu.com)

I just picked every trade paperback on the shelf above my computer as the sample. Each is discounted on Amazon.com from 10% to 22% (I just didn't want to list each discounted price). Some are physically larger (length and height) as compared to NaCl's work but still all would be considered trade paperbacks, I believe.

The selection listed above represents major publishers, small publishers, and one self-published.

Whether NaCl can indeed sell enough novels to recoup his investment (beyond the marketing time that is not factored in--but in truth nearly every novelist would have to invest some time in this) is a question that will be learned over time. Hopefully the calculated for second print run is in his future.

I really don't know what his novel is about, but if looks to be something that's of interests to me, I'll give it a read--one book sold.

Terry

the problem i see is that TPBs aren't bought by most bookbuyers... traditionally published [= the writer is paid by, not paying the publisher] books are issued in that format mostly as 'advance reader's copies' sent out by the publisher prior to releasing the hard cover version... i doubt you'd see them on the shelves of major book store chains, though you might find them in pb specialty shops and used book stores, as well as on amazon, which has no 'brick and mortar' stores...

and, at much higher in price than the pb's most bookbuyers invest a few bucks in, the market for a self-published book of that sort is severely limited...

Folks,

This is an experiment. I have 31 years of marketing experience and have been a self employed entrepeneur for most of that time. Nobody pays me by the hour. Nobody pays the lease for my company office building. And, perhaps most important, NOBODY ever guaranteed me a dime of profit. In fact, my old boss predicted I would go bankrupt within a year of opening my own business...31 years ago. I still have the original business and made enough money to start and sell two other businesses since then. I am an admitted risk taker...perhaps I should have said "addicted".

My new company, which I pompously named, American Writers Publishing Company, opened its "doors" a month ago. At this time, it reminds me of my month-old granddaughter; it just lies there sucking $$$ out of my bank account-teat while producing nothing but sh....never mind.

mammamaia: you are correct about high pricing, dooming sales. It was my greatest obstacle, negotiating a printing/binding contract.

Will this latest business survive infancy? Who knows! I am testing the waters. Is there room for another sci-fi book in the vast maketplace? Again, only time will tell. I priced the book to be competitive as opposed to the self-defeating prices of POD books. I also priced in competitive website-sale discounts...such as, Christmas gift specials (BUY THREE for $29.99, saving 23%!), Refer-a-Friend Discount (20% Discount!), Reading Group Discount (Register your reading group and members get 20% off!).....you get the picture.

If I sell off my website, I can offer discounted books for less than $10 (very competitive price!) and still earn more than 10x's what I would have received from a small traditional publisher for each book. After the first 500 books sell, returning my entire initial investment, everything else is profit! I've already got a couple hundred books pre-sold to my fan base from my magazine writing.

I posted my actual costs above for starting a true self-publishing entity. It is an honest look at the financial truth, for those who wonder about the alternative to POD and vanity press. I also hope it will serve as a detailed how-to map for the very few writers who might share with me, an entrepeneurial zeal. There is one other cautionary thought that I think I overlooked. The learning curve!

If I put a price on the amount of time I invested in learning how to do the following things, it would take far more than 500 book sales to begin making a profit. Fortunately, these things I learned are pretty much a one-time experience and should serve me for many years to come...plus, I haven't had this much fun "learning" anything in many, many years. It was a blast!

Here are the time-demanding things to deal with:

1) find the right graphics artist and negotiate the contract; followed by numerous consultations as the artist tweaks initial impressions to produce a finished product.

2) learning curve on CoverPro software that allowed me to produce a print-ready JPEG cover layout.

3) hours spent with the printer adjusting the print-layout to choose fonts, add white space, produce final page numbering, remove orphans and widows, complete final (LAST CHANCE!) editing before going to print.

4) arguing with the County inspector about where my printing press was hidden...no kidding! This complete butt-hole from the county dropped by my business, saying they would not issue my business license until they inspected my printer. I told him I didn't have one and he called me a liar. I even showed him the printing contract and he still refused to believe that I didn't have a printer hidden in my garage at home. I went over his head and got quick resolution after arguing with the inbred for an hour.

5) build a website: technical HTML guys can build any kind of site you can imagine. But, they have the artistic talent of a water buffalo! You pretty much have to imagine how your website will look/function and then spend a few hours guiding the geek team to your objective.

Frankly, I could have completed another 100,000 word manuscript with the time it took to build all this infrastructure.

Is the time commitment done? Nope. Now, I start the marketing process; passive sales through the 24-hour website and Amazon; active sales to my former fan base, book signings at reading clubs, e-signings (really cool new tool!), radio talk shows, etc. I plan to work my butt off marketing, just like I would have done for any traditional publisher.

Damn you mammamaia...after writing all this, you've made me look silly! I guess I'll have to sell enough copies to overcome your expectations! LOL!

.....NaCl

sorry, kiddo... wasn't my intent, as i hope you know...

If I sell off my website, I can offer discounted books for less than $10 (very competitive price!)

does that 'under $10' include shipping and handling?... if not, how much must the book-buyer pay to actually get your book in his/her hot little hands and how long will it take to get there?... and how 'competitive' is that, compared to a best-selling author's latest pb hit that buyers can walk into any bookstore for and walk out with for under $8?...

i'm still not trying to make you look silly, only trying to present the total reality of self-publishing, to people who might be considering taking that route, so they won't be unpleasantly surprised when these facts hit them after the money's been spent...

btw, i sincerely hope you can prove to be an exception and sell enough copies to at least break even... hugs, m

Mammamaia,

While one of the mainstays of traditional publishing has always been hard cover followed up by mass market paperbacks for those that sell well, especially in some genres, trade paperbacks are quite prevalent on fiction shelves. At least in the stores I frequent.

I am not one who personally favors self-publishing, but I think you're trying to compare a mass market paperback, which except for romance maybe, most first runs are trade paperback or hardcover for what is destined to be best sellers, which is what you're comparing his efforts against.

As an example, Sandra Kring's books (which I mentioned in a post above), she was a first time author, published by Bantam/Dell. Her first novel came out in trade paperback. It's into it's third printing and she's sold another novel, that came out in trade paperback as well. It was picked up by Target as one of their book club picks. The publisher decided that being first time out, as she explained to me, that hardcover would have been a tougher sell, but readers would be willing to pay for a trade paperback. Indeed they have. She'd earned a six figure advance after her first novel for two more. While that may sound like a lot, which it is in a way, it is also what she has to live on for her next two (her third is slated for October '08 release.) As a full time author, she has to live for two or more years on the advance, and until she earns through the royalties (although she is earning some on her first novel which is still selling moderately well).

Will NaCl have the distribution and marketing and backing of a major publisher? No. Will he turn a profit? Maybe. A big enough profit to make it a worthwhile venture? Maybe but a long shot, in my opinion. I think that he has pointed out very well the investment he has made in time and cash--what many self-publishers do not--in his bid to make it with his novel.

Will he sell 500? Maybe...and you're right, Mammamaia, in pointing out that each dollar spent on things like shipping and in handling and the like, is a cost in funds out of pocket and also time out of his life. He's even pointed out that the time spent in getting ready to sell this novel has cost him the opportunity to write another.

It may be that he is destined to sell only a hundred beyond the initial 200 he feels are likely to sell based on his contacts and current reader base. Maybe not.

I think what is different here with NaCl, compared to most writers who are contemplating self-publishing...either out of desperation, impatience, that they just want to have a book in-hand is what matters, or just because they are delusional as to how 'easy' it's going to be to sell their stock, is that:

1. He has done real research and preparation.
2. He has been willing to invest more than a marginal sum in his bid for success.
3. His experience in business, sales and as an entrepreneur.

Still the odds are steep, but they're better than for the vast majority who chose (or will choose) the publishing road he is about to travel.

You are right, Mammamaia, to point out that all but a very very miniscule percentage of self-published authors (except under certain circumstances--such as for example, a motivational speaker who sells books based on his program) and especially fiction authors sell more than 50 or 60 books, most of which go to family and friends and maybe as personal gifts by the author. The rest sit in a garage gathering moisture, or are POD ready but never ordered.

All that babbling of mine aside, I don't think that the book NaCl intends to sell is priced as to inhibit success. Of all the factors to overcome, that is not a barrier, I think.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this point.

Terry

Playing devil's advocate here:

Many people are avid gamblers. I'm not talking about the gambling addicts, but the ones who save up for vacations to Las Vegas or other gambling meccas, and carefully allocate what they can afford to lose. They know the odds are stacked against them making a profit, but they not only look forward to their next gambling vacation but look fondly back at past ones. They enjoy it, even without tangible profit.

Some self published authors could be viewed in a similar light. They know that they don't stand a good chance of recouping their investment, but meanwhile, they have a book, in print, their own creation. And every book that does sell brings a moment of joy.

Does this make any sense? I'm only theorizing, with no facts to back it up.

"Some self published authors could be viewed in a similar light. They know that they don't stand a good chance of recouping their investment, but meanwhile, they have a book, in print, their own creation. And every book that does sell brings a moment of joy."

Actually that makes perfect sense to me at least.

The gambler has a dream of striking it rich.
the author has the dream of seeing his babies make it into the world.
We all have a dream of some sort and if by self publishing gets that dream going
why not go for it.
Just remember the intelligent gamblers creed or mantra.
"never spend (or bet) more than you can honestly lose"

The key concept here is "eyes wide open". POD publishers and most Vanity Press are manipulative. They prey on insecurities, frustrations and desperation of unsuspecting writers who are struggling with "hope". I strongly object to such ethics...or better stated...lack of ethics.

When I contemplated true self-publishing, I knew it would cost a bunch. I did extensive research. I submitted my MS to a group of 10 Sci-Fi fans for review. I even invested money in an independent editior, giving her the MS and a deadline. No further communications. You should have seen all the red ink between the double-spaced lines. OUCH! I took her criticisms to heart...rewriting some sections, killing some darlings and making most of the changes she suggested. Ironically, when you spend a lot of money to put out a book, it makes you demand the best...even in criticism.

I would also like to say that this is NOT a gamble. This is a calculated business investment which includes risk. By the way, no risk=no reward. As such, I have a complete business plan (reviewed by my attorney and accountant), contracts for various services such as graphic arts, internet development, printing and a budget for marketing. And for the record, I won the last Texas Hold'em Poker tournament I played a few months ago! LOL!

One last comment: when I was a freshman physics major in college, my "career" counselor strongly recommended that I switch to electrical engineering because there were too many physics majors. She said I was unlikely to find employment after graduating. I went home defeated and depressed. When I told my dad, he said, "Son, let me tell you a little secret about life. The truth is..." He put his arm around my shoulders, guiding me into his den. "...there is always room at the top! If you are the best of the graduating class, you will find employment and some less accomplished person will be moved out."

Pretty brutal thought, but dad was right! Dad's dead now, but he still guides me.

.....NaCl

New authors are signed everyday. Plenty of small publishers that need material sprout out of the woodwork.

POD is the wrong way to go. I just read a study that said the internet has a relatively minimal impact on sales, as opposed to word of mouth and a sales representative. They studied the sales of cell phones, music and real estate and found only 10% of the buyers were influenced by the internet. Now imagine books. Do you honestly think there is much of an internet market for books?

Of course, this is speculating that you are counting on people to shop your book via lulu. You may have additional plans, perhaps marketing on your own terms, but I wouldn't rule out traditional publishing. If your novel isn't getting picked up, it's for a reason. Perhaps the writing is sub-par. Do you really want to self-publish a sub-par novel?

New authors are signed everyday. Plenty of small publishers that need material sprout out of the woodwork. And, what kind of support can a fledgling author expect from an equally neophyte publisher?

POD is the wrong way to go. I just read a study that said the internet has a relatively minimal impact on sales, as opposed to word of mouth and a sales representative. They studied the sales of cell phones, music and real estate and found only 10% of the buyers were influenced by the internet. Now imagine books. Do you honestly think there is much of an internet market for books? The nice thing about being an entrepeneur is you get to swim against the current. Its a challenge, and if successful, the rewards are great.

Of course, this is speculating that you are counting on people to shop your book via lulu. You may have additional plans, perhaps marketing on your own terms, but I wouldn't rule out traditional publishing. If your novel isn't getting picked up, it's for a reason. Perhaps the writing is sub-par. Do you really want to self-publish a sub-par novel? Sub-par writing! That is the risk, isn't it? Now, define "sub-par". One reader's tripe is another reader's treasure. I hate Shakespeare and romance novels for the same reason, they bore me. From a literary standard, they are lightyears apart yet they both fail to earn my $$$ as a consumer.

The bottom line with any new author is word-of-mouth. No novel, whether self-published or released by a traditional publisher, will succeed if it fails to create a "buzz" among readers. First-time authors carry most of the burden for creating that marketing result....book signings, radio talk show interviews, reading club visits, e-signings...and yes, interenet exposure! These are all tools to help "sell" books. It ain't magic. It's hard work and the publisher's name on the book will not make the story any more exciting for readers. Ultimately, readers decide the fate of a story! Not publishers. That is a risk I gladly accept!

.....NaCl

You want me to define sub-par? Go read some of the previews or free downloads of the books on lulu and you try to compare them to Shakespeare.

Much of your opinion of the field seems to depend on the success of a person's marketing skills. You regret to mention how extremely difficult it is for a self-published author to sell any of his books. You neglect to mention that a great deal. How are you going to convince a reader to purchase a bad book?

If you can't get picked up by a traditional publisher, your book just isn't good enough. It doesn't matter how green you are. If your book is amazing a publisher will buy it. There's no hidden agenda. These guys want to sell books. They'd like to sell good books. Whenever any of my manuscripts were rejected, I made no excuses. I knew the work was lacking. I revised and revised until I was picked up.

These hurdles exist for a reason. If you can't leap over them, you have no business being on the track team.

You want me to define sub-par? Go read some of the previews or free downloads of the books on lulu and you try to compare them to Shakespeare.

Much of your opinion of the field seems to depend on the success of a person's marketing skills. You regret to mention how extremely difficult it is for a self-published author to sell any of his books. You neglect to mention that a great deal. How are you going to convince a reader to purchase a bad book?

If you can't get picked up by a traditional publisher, your book just isn't good enough. It doesn't matter how green you are. If your book is amazing a publisher will buy it. There's no hidden agenda. These guys want to sell books. They'd like to sell good books. Whenever any of my manuscripts were rejected, I made no excuses. I knew the work was lacking. I revised and revised until I was picked up.

These hurdles exist for a reason. If you can't leap over them, you have no business being on the track team.

Hold your angry horses there, Wintermute. Did I ask you to spend a dime on MY endeavour? Did I ask you to even buy my book? These expenditures are solely mine, as is the decision to take this risk.

If you wish to view the world through there's-only-one-way-to-do-it glasses, then that's your loss. It takes people with vision and guts to explore "outside the box". Imagine if Christomer Columbus gave up on his quest because he listened to the naysayers. You obviously feel quite comfortable inside your narrow view of "traditional publishing"...BTW - I might point out that mainstream publishers are presently struggling with the "New World" of publishing. More and more people have stopped reading books in favor of getting their entertainment on the internet.

This article was written by the President and CEO of a traditional publishing company. He speaks with a refreshing honesty about the future of his industry. It's a wake-up call.

http://www.michaelhyatt.com/workingsmart/2005/12/the_death_of_tr.html


And, as far as your attempt at personal insults: "If you can't leap over them, you have no business being on the track team." You don't get it...I intend to leap over the whole damn traditional publishing building! Besides, I'm not the least bit interested in affiliating with any "team", if it is comprised of self-righteous, condescending members who show no respect for others who are trying hard.

So, you're welcome to your myopic view of the world. It serves you well, and believe it or not, I wish you great success as you follow the clearly marked trail through the forest. But I'll take my axe and blaze my own trail...if for no other reason than it is, as my kids say, hella fun!

.....NaCl

go for it, kiddo!... you certainly seem to have your head on straight and not be wearing blinders, so why not try for the brass ring, if you really have your heart set on it and are ready/willing to do the work?... best of luck with it all... i hope you sell enough to make this guy eat his words!...

m

Truth is mammamaia, I've already succeeded. I learned so much in this process that it has been wonderfully exciting. There's a lot more to building a publishing company than I ever expected. And it takes you away from "writing"...ironic huh? That's my only regret.

As far as anybody eating their words, I don't empower negative people. I genuinely hope he makes a good living with his own writing. I would hope he showed the same good will towards me. But if anyone is so entrenced in a narrowminded point of view, I don't care. OMG...does that make me arrogant too! LOL!