Note: If this is in the wrong forum feel free to move it. Placing worldbuilding stuff always confuses me ;)

During worldbuilding for my fantasy story (though this could be for any genre) I love the freedom of being able to create "stuff", people,places and everything else. But one thing that has really confused me is creating technology and magic. Therefore I have made this thread for us budding worldbuilders to discuss the creation of technologies and magic and hopefully our worlds will be a little better off because of it :D

Some questions I am curious about are:
1. What makes a good magic system.
2. A good way to name spells and technologies.
3. How far can you take technology in a fantasy world?

The third question is quite important for me because even though my world doesn't have televisions or space ships, they do have technologies similer to thermometers and geiger counters, as well as scrying glasses that are similer to advanced computer screens. (Like those computer screens in the Minority Report, but much scaled down a bit.)

Don't forget you can ask your own questions and we will do our best to answer them. :)

Thanks in advance,
Sywo

You might be interested in this site and its forum. It is a series of podcasts focused on worldbuilding. Perhaps some of the listeners would be more attuned to your needs.

http://www.imaginaryworlds.net/v2/ Main website, Podcasts
http://www.imaginaryworlds.net/phpbb/ Forum

I've listened to some of the podcasts but I didn't realize they had forums. I shall have to investigate. *takes out Sherlock Holmes outfit*

Never the less, it is good to have a wide range of opinions and ideas so the questions still stand. ;)

I have always believed that in a world you build yourself there is no fundamental difference between technology and magic. If you have an actual system of magic, it will be just as scientific and logical as the technology. It is just another source of energy and resources, and enterprising people will incorportate it into the machinery.

As for what makes a good magic system:

The best ones make sense. They take some rule or natural law from our world and expand on it. In The Magic of Recluse it was all based on order and chaos. The different mages were able to do different things depending on which side they were on. For example order mages are able to become invisible by arranging the light beams so they go around the mages body instead of bouncing off of it. Chaos mages can't do that because that is putting order into the system. The way a chaos mage would go invisible is they destroy the visual signal of a person as it travels from the eyes to the brain.

A good magic system clearly lets the reader know the rules and limitations early on in the story, and then adamantly sticks to them.

When you name something, start with what it does. Make the name show the function of the machine. That's how most of our things got their names. Microwave, fridge, even train.

You can take the technology as far as you want, just make sure it's balanced. I would doubt that a society advanced enough to make a car for example would lack the technology to make a gun.

Thanks for the ideas, they do clear up a lot of things for me.

Luckily, my MC meets a mage early in the story anyway, so no doubt the rules of my system should be easy to excplain at that point.

I think the key is to clearly define what is meta-physical and what is physical in your world. Anything metaphysical (beyond your world's physical reality) can be systematically dealt with via magic. Physical things can be dealt with both magic and technology. Now if you allow your technology to also influence the metaphysical, you need to construct what philosophers call a very strong supervenience law (how the physical supervenes on the non-physical). Do that and you have a complete cosmology.

1. What makes a good magic system.
2. A good way to name spells and technologies.
3. How far can you take technology in a fantasy world?

1. I am not sure what you meany by a "magic system"
2. I tend to use words from other languages, one of my favourites being Latin.
3. As far as you want, bearing in mind however, the time difference from now and when your novel is set. If you write about flying cars in ten years time, that may be slightly unbelivable, but if you write about flying cars in 50 years time, people could see how they have had time to develop.

I did something similar to what you have described with something I was writing a little while ago. Although they did not have televisions and cars etc, they had their own types of technoology using magic, but yea, anything can work really as long as it is wrote beleivably.

I personally just like to stick by the golden rule of making everything at least seem plausible in the world you're creating, whether it be technology or magic. But here's some amazing links about world building in regards to magic and technology.

http://www.elfwood.com/farp/thewriting/liljenbergworlds/day0.html
http://www.elfwood.com/farp/thewriting/liljenbergworlds/day1.html

Very detailed, to say the least.

A good magic system is based off of consistency, and should limited as well. For the most part, I agree with CDRW. However, I do not believe that it necessarily has to be based off principles of the natural laws we a subject to.

Most certainly name things for what they are, resemble, or do. Remember to use cultural aspects when something is wholly unfamiliar, such as calling a colossal warship a floating mountain in the native language. Little nuances like that.

Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

A good magic system to me has penalties. Sure you can summon a demon, but at what cost? Severe physical strain? Fainting? Death? This makes it seam realistic with the thought of penalties, sort of like laws and rule breaking.

As far as naming, my magicians and wizards never shout Expeleramous! or anything, they just cast. I guess for technology in a fantasy, I'd go as far as steampunk: steam-powered machines, coal-powered machines, heavy use of iron and steel. Nothing post-modern.

~ The Essential Writer

As for punishment, the greatest of my magics are life threatening. Kill a god and you WILL burn.

As i said, steampunk could be a limit, though traditional weapons are still used (bows and arrows) but still have magitech that outclasses our own.

I guess and example of this could be the Northern Lights and the Subtle Knife, as it features advanced technology as well as magical thingslike the Subtle Knife.

Some questions I am curious about are:
1. What makes a good magic system.
A set of rules, which includes penalties, reqards and at least a semblance of balance. As a note: Don't "explain" just because you have a mage on hand. You can have a coherent system without spilling the beans and ruining the mystery, or, should I say, magic.
2. A good way to name spells and technologies.
After historical characters, with a conlang, occassionally with a natural language from earth.
3. How far can you take technology in a fantasy world?
As far as you want. Somebody mentioned steampunk. Urban fantasy is another good example. A thermometer is not as advanced as you'd think. Steampunk can easily handle a geiger counter analogue.

The third question is quite important for me because even though my world doesn't have televisions or space ships, they do have technologies similer to thermometers and geiger counters, as well as scrying glasses that are similer to advanced computer screens. (Like those computer screens in the Minority Report, but much scaled down a bit.)

Don't forget you can ask your own questions and we will do our best to answer them. :)

Thanks in advance,
Sywo


You've asked some fairly general questions. Actual answers would depend on the specific variabless inolved in each world and system of tech or magic.

First off, I think this topic goes on Plot Creation. And yeah, World Building is almost my favorite part when developing a story. Here are some answers:

1.- What makes a good magic system?
Something that's not cliched and, of course, limitations. If you don't add these, the many chapters where your Main Character traveled across the desert would be seen as stupidity, because he/she could simply teleport. You get the point don't you?


2.- A good way to name spells and technologies:
There are many, many ways. You can open two language translators and merge words that have different meanings to make a new word. Or, you can use words from ancient languages. Ever played Final Fantasy VII? Well, Sephirot's name comes from Sefirot, the supposed 10 attributes of God.
Or as simple as this, you may not even need a name. Check this URL, it might help.

http://www.elfwood.com/farp/thewriting/liljenbergworlds/day0.html


3.- How far can you take technology in a fantasy world?
It is your world, as far as you want. Of course, depending on how far, the subgenre may change. There is a point in which your technology becomes so advanced that it is almost impossible to dicern it from magic. As Etan Istar said, someone mentioned steampunk. Steampunk has the same technollogy advancements of Victorian or Edwardian Ages. Can't Remember.

A good magic system has to have some consequence for using it. That could range from a headache to death (if you go to far). You also have to set a limit on how far the magic can go (can you shoot lightning from your hand or can you only mess with someones mind).
A good way to name spells is by some ancient language in your world but be creative it could be anything!
And as far as technology is concerned I usually tend towards the highest technology being siege weapons of some sort. Hope this helped.

Hmm, I don't believe for magic thing you should allow the limit of only using Steampunk, it all depends on how it's written. Heck a good example in myths is Atlantis the technology of that city was to supposed of surpassed our technology today. And is it probable and most certain magic was used. Combining both, you have more possibility.

A good rule is too establish society then you can decide how magic then.

A good magic system to me has penalties. Sure you can summon a demon, but at what cost? Severe physical strain? Fainting? Death? This makes it seam realistic with the thought of penalties, sort of like laws and rule breaking.

I complely agree with penalties, limitations. If you dont have these in place, your character is just going to want to use them as often as theirs some difficult, small or big (or so you'd think). You wouldnt get too far if he could cast anything he wants without disadvatnages...would be a short story (or could). By providing limits your essentially creating a true character who's got to think whats best for him or her in the situation there at present gthat wont effect things to come (fatigue, possible death and so forth).

Technolgoy should be reletively loose in fantasy realms, though it really depends on the genre. High Fantasy probably has practically no technology while some variations may have the steampunk tech ( victorian era style machines: coal, iron, steam-powered )

Do what ever you like man. I have read some stories where magic users can't have any modern tech and the extremly complicated tech messes up magic. I have seen other where magic fuels technology, almost like magic were the electrical current. I can imagine a world where a wizard can cast spells, or pump raw magical energy into a suit to charge it and make it fight his enemies. It would be like a golem but a clever man could rewire it to plant fields instead of killing men. it is all how you want to do it.

TwinPanther, you have hit the nail on the head, ideas like that are exactly what I'm aiming for.

As for penalties and such, my main character doesn't really approve of over powerful magic due to an experiance when he tried to bring someone back to life, the effects of it mking him phobic of powerful magic such as teleporting as well as emotionally scarring him as eventually he loses trhe love of his life to magic. (As i said before, kill a god and you will burn)

Also, what do you think about the idea of making an encyclopedia of your world? Creating different folders on a computer and filling them in then adding to them as your story progresses? For or against?

Also, what do you think about the idea of making an encyclopedia of your world? Creating different folders on a computer and filling them in then adding to them as your story progresses? For or against?

I've pretty much got one going myself. If im bored and have a question about my character, world, time frame, etc i just go and create an answer and store it somewhere (Mind you i always keep the idea that those ideas will change, so if i keep a record i can modify it)


I mainly use them for reflection, if i lose perspective (when im critically reading over my work).

Remember real world science to make it seem realistic.

E.g. where does the energy and matter involved come from, and go to?

I always liked the idea of magic just being another form of energy, like kinetic energy or heat energy or radioactive energy.

World Building: This has to be the bane (or brain baby) of any author that decides to try and build one.

The First question you asked: What makes a good magic system:
They main answer is: "Consistency"

Consider Magic to be it's own thing. It does not need to play by the laws of physics or the physical world, but that does not mean it is not bound by laws of it's own right.

Take Gravity: It is a Law; It will happen, and it will happen in a specific manner: It is constant, is consistent and it is easily seen and felt - but it is is only fully understood by the people that have taken the time to gain full education, take college and post grad courses in physics to fully grasp the nature of something so seemingly simple as gravity, because it is not as simple as it seems. Even if almost anyone can "play with it" most do not fully comprehend it.

Magic should be treated the same way. People can see it, feel it's effects and know that it is there. There are rules and laws regarding how it will behave, but only those that study it, fully grasp it.

What those laws and rules are, are yours to create and make. Do spells require some innate ability? are they learned? is magic some primal raw power, or a gift from fickle gods?

Those are the products of our imagination, what we build the world to be, how we set the rules down.

As far as names go: Well, think the table of elements? or the means by which we measured Electricity (Watt and Joule, candle power). Gravity as a name or "The Laws of Motion".

Perhaps inventor names, or what they do, or even how they relate to the world around them. There is no set standard, even just where it was "Cast" might be enough (Like fossils get named by location - on occasion)

Your last question is a fun one:

How far can you take technology in a fantasy world: As far as you want is the ideal answer. Piers Anthony has flying carpets and taxi cabs in several of his books (Incarnate of immorality), where in worlds like Warhammer there is a blurred line between Technology and Magic (depending on the race)

In this front, it is more about what role you want magic and technology to play in your world then it is a standard as to where you need to stop.

I hope some of this helped.

When you say Warhammer, I assume you are referring to the Skaven, what with their amazingly unreliable warp-lightning cannons :)

As for where the magic energy and such comes from, I had the ideas of an existence of nothingness, (Lovingly named, "The Pit") where magical energy is totally free and untamed. A big free well of magic :) Its also how the greatest buildings are (or were, time gets confusing in my story) bigger on the inside then the outside, because people started building in the pit instead of reality.

I really need to control the amount of info i splurge out lol

The pit sounds good, a big well of magical energy. But I'd have to repent you for the bigger inside than out thing, sounds like a rip off of the Tardis. But in any case it sounds good, at the minute my story uses crystals. Different colours for different elements, so on so forth...

When you say Warhammer, I assume you are referring to the Skaven, what with their amazingly unreliable warp-lightning cannons :)


Hummm I should have said Warhammer 40K to make the point better.

The pit sounds good, a big well of magical energy. But I'd have to repent you for the bigger inside than out thing, sounds like a rip off of the Tardis.

Not to mention Moody's trunk in Harry Potter, that warddrobe in the Lion the Withc and the Wardrobe, The Authority's mountain in The Amber Spyglass as well as countless other things. Every idea has been used before, just depends how you write it.

OMG! I sound like someone of writing forums now lol

Warhammer 40K's "magic" is a good exampple of penalties ina system, cause if you screw up you get eaten by some ranmdom daemonic guy of evil :)

As for crystals, I'd imagine that being quite dificult, having to name them, then assign stuff to them, then work out all the other stuff we've brung up.
Not meaning to be patronising, but the last time I saw crystals en masse was when my little bro was watching Power Rangers.;)

Warhammer 40K's "magic" is a good exampple of penalties ina system, cause if you screw up you get eaten by some ranmdom daemonic guy of evil :)

Depends: That is one example. With the wizards casting spells.

A prime example of Magic/Machine mixes is "Space Marines"

Noted: "Machine Spirit" of the Land Raider for the Space Marines. It is like the land raider has a "Spirit" this magical entity that can "take over" the tank in case the crew fails.

The Tech Marines worship the "Machine Spirit" to guide their hands as they repair the great devices and things like that.

Chaos also does things like fuseing a daemon and a tank into a living mechanical monstrosity (Example: Defiler)

Even the "Living Metal" of the Necron's can be viewed as a form of "Magic/Machine" fusion.

Even things like "Feel no Pain" could be a form of magic in your "world System" as it might be viewed as magic to imagine watching some guy take Hellhound shot into his leg, blows off his limb from the knee down (along with a twenty food wide ditch of dirt around him) and he stands back up on one leg, pulls out his chain sword spitting forth blood and letting out a blood curdling yell as he charges the Armored chaos lord that just materialized out of thin air

"For the Emperor!"

It all depends on what you want "Magic" to be, it also depends on your audience.

People that like Sabrina only want magic to obey enough rules to teach a "Moral lesion" or make a funny story. Anything beyond that they do not care.

To many people that read simply to escape - magic is magic because it does not follow rules, it is mystical and untameable force that it both close to home and far out of reach.

It depends on what you the author want and what you are putting out to your readers.

1. A good magic system has to have some limit to it, the most common way to use it is to have the magic user age a little every time they use magic. Another idea that I've used before is that most creatures can't use magic, but they can enslave spirits to make it for them.

2. Figure out what the main thing is that it does, then get a translated form of it in Latin or some other language. You can fool around with the letters to make it sound better if you want.

3. As far as you would like. A good way to see magic in a modern setting would be to read Dark Lord of Derkholm.

Depends: That is one example. With the wizards casting spells.

A prime example of Magic/Machine mixes is "Space Marines"

Noted: "Machine Spirit" of the Land Raider for the Space Marines. It is like the land raider has a "Spirit" this magical entity that can "take over" the tank in case the crew fails.

The Tech Marines worship the "Machine Spirit" to guide their hands as they repair the great devices and things like that.

Chaos also does things like fuseing a daemon and a tank into a living mechanical monstrosity (Example: Defiler)

Even the "Living Metal" of the Necron's can be viewed as a form of "Magic/Machine" fusion.
.

Personally, my story hasn't quite reached tanks yet, but I see what you are getting at. Possessed stuff would no doubt have great benefits in factories, (They run themselves) but their would have to be some sort of massive penalty for this, otherwise there wouldn't be enough jobs.

Seeing as religion in my world is based around a pantheon of gods, I was planning to implement a God of Machines or Technology, but this time an actual god, not some Void Dragon Necron thing thats stuck on Mars.

The Necrons have been a large inspiration for one of the species in my story. (Along with the Terminator and various religious texts and a good ol' bit of Doctor Who)

Basically, this species are the dead who instead of going to Heaven (Or Heavens) are encased in Armor and sent to fight by the "Devil". (Who in the end isn't as bad as he seems"

Oh and Chaos Obliterators + Feel no pain = Oppenents Death :D

Personally, my story hasn't quite reached tanks yet, but I see what you are getting at. Possessed stuff would no doubt have great benefits in factories, (They run themselves) but their would have to be some sort of massive penalty for this, otherwise there wouldn't be enough jobs.

Seeing as religion in my world is based around a pantheon of gods, I was planning to implement a God of Machines or Technology, but this time an actual god, not some Void Dragon Necron thing thats stuck on Mars.

The Necrons have been a large inspiration for one of the species in my story. (Along with the Terminator and various religious texts and a good ol' bit of Doctor Who)

Basically, this species are the dead who instead of going to Heaven (Or Heavens) are encased in Armor and sent to fight by the "Devil". (Who in the end isn't as bad as he seems"

Ok this is a prime example of "Any limit" when you talk of magic and technology. You have (terminator/necron) tech level (High end stuff) and yet you are also dealing with pure raw magic of soul fusion to metal and all that jazz.

There is no "Line in the Sand" where the technology has to stop here, but for many Magic = Fantasy or Medieval time, so steam is about where it is at, but there are many books of Sci-Fi that has "Magic" in them.

IE: May the Force be with you. Just another means by which "magic" enters the picture.

Also you don't need to call it "Magic", you could make up a name.

Spells are what you make them, magic is what you make it.

I hope some of this helps you.

Is magic basically anything we can't properly explain with science?

Is magic basically anything we can't properly explain with science?

Mostly, although it could also be religion.

So if it doesn't come from God/gods/something spiritual, and our science can't explain it, it's magic. Although, usually magic in a good fantasy novel is explained by that world's science.

Unless, of course, it is a form of divine magic.

As I read over all of the post I started noticing a conformity that a worlds tech has to be equal or at least close to the magic used, I may be wrong with this but then maybe not. However that concept made me remember a book that I had read a few years ago in a series that is globally acclaimed, the second book in the Voyage of the Jerle Shannara, Antrax by Terry Brooks has as a primary obstacle for both the good and evil that is the remains of a society long gone that has been living off the magic drained from present (for the series) characters. So I would have to say that there is some gray area that can be hit as long as the author can do it as Mr. Brooks did in the novel.

1. a magic system can come from many different views. Watch Star Wars recently? Replace 'Jedi' for 'wizard' and there is magic with a 'light' and 'dark' side. It is present in all life forms but only special training allows one to 'use' it. and if you use it too much it creates ripples in the 'force' that attracts stronger 'jedi'. this is a great example of a setting with high tech and moderate magic, depending on the era.

Is there a Male or Female side as in the wheel of time series? is there any number of tricks or ways to use magic, and you need only be shown how to use it like The Sword of Truth books? Are spells based on elements like fire, earth, water, and air as in the Runelords? Is magic used more directly, like throwing fireballs around like your a pitching machine, or is it more subtle, changing a characters destiny slowly like a good hex? Is it simple like snapping your fingers and making a Golem implode, or a long and tenuous process like having to draw thousands of intricate runes as a precursor to cast the ritual to destroy your enemy's soul? What implications will failure bring?
An example of the cost of using magic; say a 150 lbs character wants to fly for ten minutes. Magic changes the effect of gravity, causing the character to weigh Nothing for a time. What if the price of weighing nothing for ten minutes is to weigh more afterward? What if when he lands his weight is 250 pounds for the rest of the day...or the rest of his life? How high the cost is obviously is up to the writer.
There really is no wrong answer here, as long as magic has some limitations, as has been stated already here numerous times. but I'm done ranting on that topic for now.

2. an excellent place to find good name ideas is to grab a Dungeons and Dragons players handbook. spells are named simply for what they do, such as 'fireball' and 'lightning stike'. Others are names after they eclectic inventors like 'bigby's grasping hand' and 'bigby's crushing hand' and etc..
If your story has magical organizations the names of spells could be derived from themes they like. Example, the US army likes to name developmental projects after dragons; dragons skin, dragons breath....

3. Your technology to magic ratio will depend on the importance of each.
Star Wars is high tech. If you removed the technology from Star Wars, it would merely be 'we're-all-stuck-on-our-own-planet Wars' and the fact that they can use the force would be moot cause you couldn't get anywhere. But could star wars go on without jedi and the force? sure, but it would definitely not be as interesting.

in the same sense, would a high fantasy story be any worse without windmills or cranes when a wizard could easily stand in and use magic? How much more useful is magic in combat when the majority of people live by the sword and bow?

Just some of the random thoughts I've had when creating my own worlds and just my own opinions here. but something to debate and think about.