Every once in a while, the matter of swearing and its place in writing arises. This especially comes up when someone posts a story and finds the writing peppered with **** instead of the choice words he or she meant to deliver.

For better or worse, this site blocks certain words from appearing anywhere on the site. Still, your meaning remains clear, unless the ****s begin to outnumber other words. Does it mean the writing is any less legitimate? No. Your writing is no better or worse than it was to begin with.

But let's focus on the larger question. Does profanity have a place in writing? Sure it does. Those are words, too, and can be chosen for effect, just like any other.

And yetr, this site is not the only place you will encounter restrictions on "colorful" language. If you plan to submit a script for network television, or a story for a family magazine or the Boy Scouts of America's Boys' Life, you will have to curtail your language as well as certain themes.

But this should not force your characters to be shallower either. Of course people swear. They can turn the air blue. They also fart, belch, clear their throats, screech, and gibber meaningless syllables. You can convey any of these without reproducing every last word or sound that comes out of a character's mouth, and learning to do so without loss of intensity is a valuable challenge for any writer to attempt.

Dialogue does not exist to reproduce the sound of someone talking. Dialogue is expository. It's purpose is to reveal character, agenda, mood, conflicts, and so on. To do this you filter and reconstruct the words to craft the conversation to its purpose. You may even want some invective there to punch home a point. But sprinkle it in with a light touch! Like habanero pepper flakes, a little goes a long way, far more than you intuitively feel. Say f*** once in a paragraph, in the right place, and the reader will believe that every other word out of the character's mouth rhymes with "truck".

Let's face it - were you ever impressed that someone was able to string together a sentence laden with the eff-bomb? Just how much creativity does it take?

Instead, try writing aeound such restrictions. Learn to say it without literally saying it. Instead of seeing it as a limitation, look upon it as a creative challenge.

Your writing will become so much better, you'll be ****ting bricks.

What an author should realize is that the use of profanity in their writing will limit what markets it can be submitted to (where it could ultimately be published).

On the other hand, there are some markets that don't mind, or may seek out works laced with profanity...although I am more aware of the former than any of the latter.

I think also a writer should consider readers. In my experience they generally fall into two camps:

1. I don't care for writing filled with profanity.
2. I don't mind profanity in novels/short stories, especailly where appropriate.

I guess there could be a third category:
3. I prefer reading material that has profanity in it.

I've not run across many readers in category three, but I am sure they are out there.

I suspect the publishers' preferences mirror the readers' preferences for a reason. The former would not stay in business if the latter did not buy what they publish.

Just a few thougths I figured I'd toss into the discussion.

Terry

Well that raises a question for me Cogito. I agree with everything you said, but for the most part people still know what those words are. I don't understand how off putting it can be to some people as I don't have a problem with it, but some do and I respect that But since the people who seem to mind swearing are people who know what swearing is, the *** sort of defeat the purpose, because they still know what the words are and will most likely take offense regardless, hypothetically of course, I don't know how people think until they tell me how they have thought. But I understand children go on this site and might not know the words yet, so they might pick them up here and say them around the house and get in trouble and etc., so I understand the bleeping for this particular sight.

My question is about racial slurs, now I am not a racist person and believe strongly in the philosophy that only those looking to take offense will, but that does not change the fact that people will take offense to certain words, and the last thing I want is to make people feel uncomfortable. I believe that they are necessary in writing, though, to show any number of things. What is your stance on the dirtiest, most hurtful words in the book?

I don't have a problem with people writing profanity into their work. The problem that I do see, and have seen on this site a lot, is that most of it feels unnatural and forced and, thus, unneccesary.

Well, you could go a la Eoin Colfer. He inveted a word for swearing used by faeries: "D'Arvit!".

Believe it or not, I’ve actually counted (on more than one occasion) the number of times I use language inappropriate for network television in one day. The number was actually quite small. I am no saint, and do not limit the kinds of words that come out of my mouth, at all.

Given that dialogue in any story is not going to represent the complete amount of speech for any person in one day, how much colorful language is really needed on the page?

I remember the first bit of feedback I ever got on the very first draft of my very first attempt at writing a novel: "Awful lot of profanity in there, don't ya think?"

After re-reading it myself, I realized I cuss like a sailor just as much in writing as in small talk. Curbing the four-letter words was the first editing tasks I ever did for myself, though I still use profanity in my writing.

I think it's fine, so long as a writer is aware of the audience he's writing for and the context of the dirty words in the writing. Cussin' for the sake of cussin' does little in telling a story, let alone getting published. :)

My question is about racial slurs, now I am not a racist person and believe strongly in the philosophy that only those looking to take offense will, but that does not change the fact that people will take offense to certain words, and the last thing I want is to make people feel uncomfortable. I believe that they are necessary in writing, though, to show any number of things. What is your stance on the dirtiest, most hurtful words in the book?There are words so offensive, so hurtful in their intrinsic purpose, that I never, ever use them in person. Nor woould I ever have a positive character ever use them, because they are so vile that they are antithetical to what I consider a "decent" person.

Having said that, I cannot rule out ever having a despicable character saying one of those words, although I would probably still have it come from the character's mouth without staining my page. In that category I include some of the more abhorrant racial slurs and gender terms.

My approach would probably be, how would I tell what happened to a priest with my mother-in-law and the HR director of my company listening in (I'm neither a mamber of a religion nor currently married, but you get the idea). If you're sufficiently motivated, you can find another way to tell it. On the other hand, there may be circumstances in which you decide there is no better way to say it to your intended audience than to just flat out use the word.

If it is not your habit to use such language, and it suddenly comes flying out of your mouth, people will certainly sit up and take stunned notice. But be warned, the second time you do so, the impacty will only be a fraction of what it was that first time, so choose that moment well.

Other than moral boundaries, I find usage of profanities pointless. I don't find profanities have a place in the written work most of the time. People try to fill up their pages with profanities sometimes - sometimes it is good, as it portrays the foul language of a character and his social background - but most of the times, its a pathetic excuse for profanity. During novel reading, I often lose interest if the writer writes a profanity once - let alone filling it up. You can be rude, distasteful and angry without a chain of ****s, you know.

The first piece of writing I ever submitted to this site contained a single instance of the word f***ing, in dialogue, as part of how I was shaping my character. The next revision removed it, even though my character was no less unlikeable, and I believe it was a much better piece of writing. It wasn't solely the removalof that dialogue, but it helped.

EDIT: As words go, f*** has become rather anemic. Some people argue that that makes it a prime candidate to allow it to appear without fuss. Still, many poeple continue to find it offensive, and it is now so vulgar--in the old meaning of "common"--that it deserves to be turned into a strip of stars, even if only to say, "Here lie the shoals of weak word choices, where imagination be shallow."

You can be rude, distasteful and angry without a chain of ****s, you know.

Absolutely true. Some of the finest tongue lashings I have ever delivered (real and literary) contained not one foul word. I think they were actually strengthened by the lack of low-brow language.

Absolutely true. Some of the finest tongue lashings I have ever delivered (real and literary) contained not one foul word. I think they were actually strengthened by the lack of low-brow language.

To add to that, I manage to be a irate and rude person without any profanities, and so do my characters. It's the art of writing which determines the person's rudeness, not solely the number of curse words you use.

First off, I want to say that I totally support the use of profanity, but only in a sense where, when its being used, it gives the story and the dialogue a little extra kick.

But the subject does raise a lot of controversy as seen in the Suggestions and Feedback forum. I for one see f*** as just another word and, being just a word, it should be treated as such. I just posted a story entitled "F****d up and Numb" and the fact that it was censored did upset me. The title I did out of respect for other members but the line is found in the story and using any other word was out of the question. It made the emotion of the moment feel right at least for me.

Really though, isn't that one of the freedoms to being a writer. Being able to express yourself as openly as you can in whatever way shape or form feels right to you.

Profanity has a place in writing, given that it's not overused. Just like adverbs and incomplete sentences and many other writing devices. As a person who doesn't swear, even minor curse words, I find the F word shocking, myself, hence it very rarely appears in my work and only then when I want to make an impact; but when I see a movie like Casino where they use the stupid thing every two words, it loses its shock quality. Curses are meant to be shocking. So when overdone, they lose their point.

I don't use it much simply because I like to keep my work PG-13 and most of my characters aren't colorful cursers anyway. With ones that are, I can always just say, "He cursed" or some such. On the other hand, with my characters in time periods/places that don't make use of things like the F-bomb, I like to come up with original "expletives" that make more sense to such people. I find that lots of them revolve around waste materials and bodily functions, of course.

Really though, isn't that one of the freedoms to being a writer. Being able to express yourself as openly as you can in whatever way shape or form feels right to you.


Of course it is one of the freedoms of a writer, but this is a privately owned venue. You must keep in mind that the owners have the right, every right, to impose these types of restrictions on what is published in this forum.

It depends. I use it very sparingly, although I use the word "damn" from time to time when the situation and character call for it, and I don't really consider it to be a curse word. Beyond that, I avoid it almost completely unless in the most heated situations and with the most testy of characters.

I think profanity is often an excuse to either make a character seem cool or testy without actually taking the time to develop that trait properly. There are many more interesting ways to develop a character's temper without swearing, and, swearing, honestly, is not cool.

When you use it with characters who don't normally swear, in situations that really warrant it, that's when swearing in writing is most powerful. It shows that your character is under an unusual amount of stress and shows a side of the character we might not normally see.

I think profanity is often an excuse to either make a character seem cool or testy without actually taking the time to develop that trait properly. There are many more interesting ways to develop a character's temper without swearing, and, swearing, honestly, is not cool.

Honestly, I've been swearing my entire life. Seriously, just ask my mother! But when it comes to writing, its just like you say Hedgehog; there are so many more interesting ways to develop a character that has a temper, or is foul-mouthed for any reason than by using swear words. Instead of using mere dialogue, why not have the character DO something like punch some one or kill a kitten to show how horrible they are! And if you want to use dialogue, why not think of a more interesting way to say something? True, this might be more difficult for characters with lower intellect which might not have the proper vocabulary, but that's when you go back to plan A for Action!

The language restrictions on this site are regrettable, but necessary. I personally have no problem with any level of profanity in a story so long as it is required for authenticity. For example, I am almost done with a Viet Nam war story which incorporates a lot of vulgarity and racist rhetoric because that language was authentic to the time and place. Unfortunately, I could never post any of it for review on this site because of the restrictions.

How do I "feel" about such restrictions? I support them! Not because I find expletives offensive, rather, when such language is permitted, there is almost always some loose cannon who will take the offending words out of literary context and direct such terms toward other members in the heat of argument. I have spent time on several writing sites and this one is, by far, the most constructive and congenial...thanks to a few reasonable restrictions and the diligent oversight of the moderators like Cog.

So, for me, its a trade off. I willingly lose a little literary freedom in exchange for a comfortable place to commune with like-minded people.

I think it also needs to be taken into account that there is a significantly different general demeanor on this site than on other sites. Say what you will, but I love that this site holds civil discourse over rampant flame-wars and pie fights. I think that the restriction on language plays a significant role in the keeping of the peace. A black & white rule concerning what is allowed keeps ridiculous arguments over this is allowed here, but not here, and never here or here, but you can do and say what you like here, here, and here from occurring and becoming the predominant discussion.

That B/S is what drove me from the last forum I was in.


Edit~ Sorry, Saulty. I just realized that I pretty much paraphrased what you already posted. My bad! :D

You'll hear from my attorney shortly. I demand $1,000,000 for the plagiarism! LOL

I look at it like this in movies there can be an overabundance of nudity and sex or too much violence. If it gets to the point where it detracts from the story then it is a problem. If it does not then call it artistic licsence ( i suck at spelling). If an author is all about having cussing in his book then it belongs in the same place as a porno in my opinion. I have read some comics like that though with lots of cussing and you had to be 18 to buy it.

I rarely feel a need for profanity and if I do, it's usually in a heated moment and the profane word is something minor like the B or D word that you can say on television. I have other content issues that concern me much more. I just don't think frequent cursing is really necessary and I feel it can detract from the plotline very easily.

Profanity can hurt a story in one fahsion but both ways:writing in a way to avoid or to add in as many as possible. When you have a situation where a swear is called for and use something else, it hurts the credibility of a story. If a mafia hitman finds himself trapped by SWAT ready to apprehend him, he is not going to say "Oh snap!" On the other hand, going into a tirade filled with F bombs, C bombs and any other swear you can think up ten times over wouldn't be realistic either. It's not something you should focus on while writing your first draft. If through revisions you find some swears you want to edit, that's fine but it shouldn't be a focus as you write, or you'll distract yourself from more important things like plot, character development, etc.

You don't have to change the way the hit man talks to decide whether or not the F word appears in print. Nor am I saying you shouldn't ever swear.

If you are writing your hitman for network television, you had better find a way to convey who and what he is without putting that word in his dialogue, because face it - it ain't going to be aired with that word.

So if, as a writer, you have never written your way around such a restriction, you're handcuffed, gagged, and tossed in the trunk.

I never even brought up television and such. I was refering to novels mostly, maybe short stories and the like. Television and film is a whole different ball game with a whole new set of rules.

Besides that though, I've heard the F word on TV many of times. It might get your show a later time slot or maybe even a channel like HBO and Cinemax, but it'll still air.

Regardless, the point is that markets exist that limit profanity, and yet these media do successfully carry stories of every genre. This demosntrated ==s that it is indeed very possible to write well without profanity.

Maybe you have no interest in these markets. But that doesn't mean there is nothing to learn from them.

Profanity is not as limited as you may think. See:Bondocks, Robot Chicken, Sopranos, etc. At worst, different channel, later time slot, which helped those shows.

I really think of this topic as helpful. My mother actually read one of my stories the other day and she freaked when she saw me apply a swear word as that's not usually what I say. :p

Anyway, she pretty much told me off about writing swear words or detailed scenes, which I never do really. But that's actually a good thing to do, I actually have a few ideas on how to inply it.

dunno if the series "deadwood" was mentioned in this thread. one of the most charming things i find about it is that the language is a mixture of highly articulate 19th-century drawing-room language heavily laden with f-bombs. it works and it conveys authenticity and i would hear it no other way.

sometimes it's not just appropriate to use strong language- sometimes it's appropriate to saturate the piece with it. "the big lebowski" being another fine media example.

not quite sure about literature, however, but there must be some good examples out there...

Swear words are useful for only two things imho. The first one is shock value. I think that's self explanitory. The other use is to sum up a huge range of emotion and thought into one word, and that goes hand in hand with shock value. Either way they need to be used sparingly, if at all.

When swear words are used frequently they lose their shock value and just become disgusting. They also stop being a powerful tool for characterzation and become a crutch that conveys a shallow mind, both of the character and the author. I think that you would be very hard pressed to write a story that needed swearing more than once or twice in the whole book.

To paraphrase a book I once read, "If you waste the swear words on little things like losing a girlfriend or job, what are you going to say when something really bad happens?"

I think these ideas are pretty black and white. You mentioned that you would never ever have a good character say certain words, but maybe a good character isn't a perfect character. Maybe characters have flaws and say bad things but can still hold a story and be a protagonist. Case in point, though it is in a movie: you have Billy Bob Thornton in Monster's Ball. He is a bigot and says the N word all of the time, but he is the protagonist, and he goes through change. All people are created differently, and I think it's much more interesting to set aside political correctness to invent a character that is intriguing and real to life.

I think these ideas are pretty black and white. You mentioned that you would never ever have a good character say certain words, but maybe a good character isn't a perfect character. Maybe characters have flaws and say bad things but can still hold a story and be a protagonist. Case in point, though it is in a movie: you have Billy Bob Thornton in Monster's Ball. He is a bigot and says the N word all of the time, but he is the protagonist, and he goes through change. All people are created differently, and I think it's much more interesting to set aside political correctness to invent a character that is intriguing and real to life.

Agreed. It's like you have characters like Jacob, he's a thug, leader of them and he often resorts to swearing or threats. Look, you're making this seem as if a character swears, you're a bad writer. That's rubbish.

Heck, it all depends on setting, one in a school, you;ll have people swearing. It all depends on setting and situation. Or their life. Stating it's bad for a character to swear is insane.

Frankly, I swear, but I often use weird alternatives, random words netted together, but still people swear. It's life.

Swear words are useful for only two things imho. The first one is shock value. I think that's self explanitory. The other use is to sum up a huge range of emotion and thought into one word, and that goes hand in hand with shock value. Either way they need to be used sparingly, if at all.

When swear words are used frequently they lose their shock value and just become disgusting. They also stop being a powerful tool for characterzation and become a crutch that conveys a shallow mind, both of the character and the author. I think that you would be very hard pressed to write a story that needed swearing more than once or twice in the whole book.

To paraphrase a book I once read, "If you waste the swear words on little things like losing a girlfriend or job, what are you going to say when something really bad happens?"


You realize you called the likes of Kurt Vonnegut, Richard Wright and Sylvia Plath among many others, "shallow minded"

I kind of think that there's no such thing as Bad Language, just language used badly.

All words have their place, and are effective if used in the right way. But they become ineffective, and produce poor writing, if they are over-used, or used in the wrong position.

This is no different for swearing. If, to make the effect of your sentence perfect, you need to use a swear-word, don't be afraid to use it anymore than you would be afraid to use any other word.

But don't overdo it, and make sure it's necessary, otherwise the writing just becomes too uncomfortable for the reader.

I don't find profanity necessary in writing, but then, since I don't use it in real life it would sound pretty unnatural if I started slipping it into my fiction. I understand sometimes we just want to give the reader an idea of the character and habits of the person in the story. That being said, I always find it unimaginative when a movie or novel character's vocabulary seems pretty much limited to the "F" word.

The use of profanity should be determined by the work or what is being conveyed as opposed to moronic "Ideologies"

Ideals or absolutes like "Profanity is Wrong" being applied to a creative outlet like writing are the result of blind mind numbing unimaginative boxes that people with out truly developed thought process allow themselves to be bound in and worse then that, they feel obligated in their own limited scope to bind others to their lemming standards.

Profanity has it's place and if used correctly it can bring to life the realism of an event, because profanity is part of Reality.

If I offended anyone with my above post, I am sorry, I am sure many will take what I have said the wrong way, such is life. I stand by what I said (not what you think I said).

The use of profanity should be determined by the work or what is being conveyed as opposed to moronic "Ideologies"

Ideals or absolutes like "Profanity is Wrong" being applied to a creative outlet like writing are the result of blind mind numbing unimaginative boxes that people with out truly developed thought process allow themselves to be bound in and worse then that, they feel obligated in their own limited scope to bind others to their lemming standards.

Profanity has it's place and if used correctly it can bring to life the realism of an event, because profanity is part of Reality.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

The use of profanity should be determined by the work or what is being conveyed as opposed to moronic "Ideologies"

Ideals or absolutes like "Profanity is Wrong" being applied to a creative outlet like writing are the result of blind mind numbing unimaginative boxes that people with out truly developed thought process allow themselves to be bound in and worse then that, they feel obligated in their own limited scope to bind others to their lemming standards.

Profanity has it's place and if used correctly it can bring to life the realism of an event, because profanity is part of Reality.

That sounds an awful lot like an ideology to me. You are pretty absolute in your assertion that applying absolutes to creativity is wrong. I feel so enlightened now that the boxes of unimagination are no longer imprisoning my mind and blinding my eyes. I think I'll go write some slasher fiction and abandon my project about how conspiracy destroys nations, groups, and individuals. Pulitzer prize, here I come.

I know people will take what I have said the wrong way, Such is the nature of the written word.

There is and will always be room for miscommunication between what someone has said and what the receiver thinks they have said.

This breakdown in conveying ideas due to these types of circumstances is nothing short of painful tribulation to the person trying to present the point and does nothing but cause further gaps in the exchange of ideas and open communication.

I stand by what I have said regarding Profanity and Ideologies, and what I believe is not open for debate or discussion. If you disagree, then so be it, we will have to agree to disagree. With that said, I will defend and stand by what I have said for as far as I have said it.

If someone wants to take what I have said the wrong way I shall not seek to correct them, as that is neither my responsibly nor a burden I seek to impose upon myself.

In parting I would like to add that as authors (Inspiring/hobbyist/professional) and writers (of any form and type) our first and foremost responsibility should be to be able to understand what someone else is saying with the written word.

IE: We need to be able to read and comprehend what we have read.

If we can not, then how can we hope to use such a medium to express our own ideas to others?

This is a simple explanation, I know, but sometimes simple works.

I write futuristic sci-fi novels about bounty hunters and for about a second I tried to cut the profanity out, (because I didn't want to hear about it from my momma.) but it didn't work. It kind of came across comical, expecting a rough and tough bounty hunter not to drop a profanity here and there. I added them back in, just in moderation mind you, and turns out my mom didn't freak out about it. To clarify though; she wasn't okay with it, but she didn't go nuts either. Anyway, that’s my take on it, so no one shoot me over it okay?

It depends on what a writer intends to do with his or her writing.

Which population of readers does a writer care to attract--have read their fiction, and in what numbers (it follows along with publishers that accept them--and why).

There are more than a few markets that frown upon or do not accept works with profanity. If a writer wants to get published there, he'll follow what I guess some would name a moronic ideology. Okay. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.

This goes back to what I stated early on in the thread: I think also a writer should consider readers. In my experience they generally fall into two camps:

1. I don't care for writing filled with profanity.
2. I don't mind profanity in novels/short stories, especially where appropriate.

I guess there could be a third category:
3. I prefer reading material that has profanity in it.

I've not run across many readers in category three, but I am sure they are out there.

I suspect the publishers' preferences mirror the readers' preferences for a reason. The former would not stay in business if the latter did not buy what they publish.

Beyond that, I won't comment on what has recently been stated. Readers of this thread can easily take a look and draw their own conclusions.

Terry

I know people will take what I have said the wrong way, Such is the nature of the written word.

There is and will always be room for miscommunication between what someone has said and what the receiver thinks they have said.

This breakdown in conveying ideas due to these types of circumstances is nothing short of painful tribulation to the person trying to present the point and does nothing but cause further gaps in the exchange of ideas and open communication.

I stand by what I have said regarding Profanity and Ideologies, and what I believe is not open for debate or discussion. If you disagree, then so be it, we will have to agree to disagree. With that said, I will defend and stand by what I have said for as far as I have said it.

If someone wants to take what I have said the wrong way I shall not seek to correct them, as that is neither my responsibly nor a burden I seek to impose upon myself.

In parting I would like to add that as authors (Inspiring/hobbyist/professional) and writers (of any form and type) our first and foremost responsibility should be to be able to understand what someone else is saying with the written word.

IE: We need to be able to read and comprehend what we have read.

If we can not, then how can we hope to use such a medium to express our own ideas to others?

I'm sorry. I reacted very badly to your post and I should have been more respectful. I should not have attacked your beliefs in that manner.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you very much, I am humbled by your kind words.

And CDRW: Thank you very much for your kind apology, and I am sorry of ou took offense from my words.

This is a question I want to put out to many people and authors to make them think a bit.

Here is a question that I want you all to ponder.

What is Profanity?

bonus to any of you that took the time research this question so that you know what you are you are talking about when you discuss profanity and the use "impolite" words in the future.

Now I want you think about this next question, take some time to ponder it before you just answer it.

What makes a story Crude or Repulsive? (IE: Offensive to delicate sensibilities)

Now a final question that I want you all to take into consideration.

Do the two of them have anything in common?

This is a question I want to put out to many people and authors to make them think a bit.

Here is a question that I want you all to ponder.

What is Profanity?

bonus to any of you that took the time research this question so that you know what you are you are talking about when you discuss profanity and the use "impolite" words in the future.

Now I want you think about this next question, take some time to ponder it before you just answer it.

What makes a story Crude or Repulsive? (IE: Offensive to delicate sensibilities)

Now a final question that I want you all to take into consideration.

Do the two of them have anything in common?

Actually, would you mind making a separate thread for that question? I realize it's related to this thread's topic, but I'd rather keep this thread on its original focus. To restate that focus, what are the ramifications of the choice of whether or not to use explicit language in writing, as opposed to inferring it?

To restate that focus, what are the ramifications of the choice of whether or not to use explicit language in writing, as opposed to inferring it?

The only drawbacks that would occur come from how the author presents the character. If, by profanity or by prudence, an author can make a character believable then there are no ramifications.

I think it depends on who and what your character is, in my books there are a lot of military characters in it. When the crap hits the fan, and your getting shot at, language tends to be an afterthought. It tends to be an afterthought at times also in general. i think it depends on just WHO the character is.

Again, though, knowing your character uses particular words does not mean you have to capture them in print - or if you decide to, it still need not mean you do so at every opportunity.

Dialogue is strategic. You don't play back a transcript of every word that would fall out of a character's mouth. Doing so is weak writing, just like describing every fidget, every bite of the character's meal, etc. As a writer, you select actions and words that move the story along or reveal the character. The use of coarse language is certainly part of delineating the character's form, but writers have many choices in how to show that language. Directly quoting the character using those words is one way, but it is not the only way.

My feeling is that it's easy to write foul language (or however you wish to name it), but no writer should limit himself or herself to a single means of expression.

So a writer who never tries to convey character by writing around the bad language is missing out on the opportunity to grow, or is perhaps afraid to try.

selective usage is definitely better...

using the term
"Kate cursed while ducking out of the way," is better more times then to say
"Oh FUDGE" or "Oh CRAP" 50 million times, unless you want to get someone's attention.

I tend to use the language myself at times I want to get a SPECIFIC point across

there is one chapter where Kate has finished having to do a 4 on 1 fight against gladiators, only for her old nemesis to release a creature she had to fight...
her:

"you've got to the F****** me!" scream shows just how shge can't believe the lengths this person will go with her...it showed her mindset...
but to go and write F-bombs like Fred Dursch of Limp Biskit, means your dialogue skills are indeed weak.

Actually, would you mind making a separate thread for that question? I realize it's related to this thread's topic, but I'd rather keep this thread on its original focus. To restate that focus, what are the ramifications of the choice of whether or not to use explicit language in writing, as opposed to inferring it?

Umm this was never your intention for this thread to start with, so why do you make the assertion that this a "restating" of the focus. This is in no uncertain terms a derailing of your own thread.

Your original statement (as per your OP) was about writing around or omitting profanity from your work (for no other motive or reason then purely to omit the profanity) would make you a better writer as it would be "More a Challenge"

I disagree with you of course as using the right words at the right times for the right reasons as per how the character would address the situation is the mark of a truly great writer, especially if this places a demand upon the writer to overcome their own delicate sensibilities. In the end if this requires or demands profanity then to omit it is a weakness, an inability on the part of the author to bring to life the realism of the situation.

To omit profanity for no other motive then purely for the sake to omit profanity is just as incompetent and morally bankrupt as putting in profanity for no other motive then for the sake of putting in profanity.

We both know that, so lets stop beating around the bush on the subject.

With all due respect, I do know what prompted me to begin this thrread, and what I wanted to discuss in it. So I would appreciate keeping the topic on how necessary it is to use language generally considered profane in writing, or whether the writing can be effeffctive without it; within that scope, of course is the option of using a llimited quantity of such language, and what effects will that choice have on the quality of the writing.

Debating just what constitutes such language may be an interesting discussion in its own right, but it would distract from the question I am trying to discuss.

With all due respect, I do know what prompted me to begin this thrread, and what I wanted to discuss in it.

Yes, in that front I am sorry as I never should have taken such an approach as to claim to know what your intentions were.

I don't want to read through this entire thread to see if anyone's used this example, but I'm going to quote Stephan King from On Writing (Great book, I highly recommend for any writer...)

"If I were a Henry James or Jane Austen sort of guy, writing only about toffs or smart college folks, I'd hardly ever have to use a dirty word or profane phrase; I might never have gotten a book banned from America's school libraries or gotten a letter from some helpful fundamentalist fellow who wants me to know that I'm going to burn in hell, where all my millions of dollars won't buy me so much as a single drink of water. I did not, however, grow up among folks of that sort. I grew up up as a part of America's lower middle class, and they're the people I can write about with the most honesty and knowledge. It means that they say "****" more often that "sugar" when they bang their thumbs, but I've made peace with that." --Stephen King

Sage insight. Personally, though, I try to keep profanity out of my work. I battle against every fiber in my body with it, because I think it can add (under the correct circumstances), emotions of the most powerful sort, but alas, I generally write for a young adult audience....

We do seem to be focusing purely on swearing as in: when characters use swearing in their speech.

It's also possible to use it in the narrative, of course. What are people's thoughts on that?

Imagine a hard-boiled soldier surviving an alien invasion, stripped of all profanity. How hard-boiled does he seem now? Profanity helps us classify characters. It also makes for realistic dialogue, because profanity is part of our culture, no matter how you like it or not. :D

If the piece you're writing is in first person, and that person happens to be someone who curses, then I suppose there has to be curse words. I think that narration with cursing involved does tend to get a little annoying, but a little here and there isn't so bad. And it's true to the character.

We do seem to be focusing purely on swearing as in: when characters use swearing in their speech.

It's also possible to use it in the narrative, of course. What are people's thoughts on that?

Narrative also has a point of view and a voice. Character-driven narrative will face approximately the same decisions as dialogue, which raises another aspect of voice: the voice of a character may vary depending on to whom the voice is directed.

For example, a certain activist was caught with his microphone on, speaking very differently than he ever would in a public oration. That change in voice revealed, or confirmed, a lot about his true character.

Narration can be directed to am abstract reader, or to the narrator's self. In one novel I read a while ago, the narration from the POV of a murderer was directed to his dead beast of a mother.

However, you don't narrate narration, so it's not as much of an option to "write around" swearing in character-driven narration. Even so, you can decide how much of it is necessary to portray the character's voice, and how much is excessive. I would still most likely take the position that "less is more." A little goes a long way in establishing color, too much just looks amateurish.

Foul language if fine if you use it to benefit a story.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote a short story called "The Big Space ****" that employed colorful language in a science fiction setting. It worked because Vonnegut used the curse words in a way that made them useful. Since the story detailed the destruction of censorship the words were necessary and useful.

Slang also has stronger connotations and emotions than other words. This makes them useful in some situations.

In my opinion, the fact that this thread was even necessary puts profanity in a bad position. But since it all depends on the crowd you're trying to please, then sometimes you must. Here are my three rules for profanity in writing:

1. Would you use it in that situation? if no, find a more colorful word.
2. Would the character use it in that situation? if no, don't kill your character's likeness.
3. and of course, limit 1 F-bomb per 200 pages. And never use it when referring to sex.

3. and of course, limit 1 F-bomb per 200 pages. And never use it when referring to sex.

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

For one, this is writing. It's not an exact science, and I'm not going to work out some clever sort of equation to what words I can use where, and how many pages between. It depends on the tone of your book. If you're writing for some seedy underbelly Chicago, mobsters in the 1930's, they're not going to chat amiably over the body they're dumping. There's going to be plenty of f-bombs, and they're going to come hard and fast. They will probably use it to refer to sex, too. If something is going to sound awkward, don't censor it. After all, it's going to sound pretty silly for a mobster to declare, "I want to have consensual sexual intercourse with you."

Alternatively, if your band of characters are mild mannered nurses in a children's school, I don't expect them to be cussing like sailors.

Personally, I think it depends on your writing. Millions of people talk in millions of ways. For something to be believable, you can't gloss it over. You can use something like 'Katey ducked out of the way, cussing,' but to totally avoid use of a word where is has it's place is ludicrous. It's just ignoring the elephant in the room.

Couldn't agree more. If the context is right - use it. Because of the censorship on this forum, my work has been ****ed up, which, as the writer, did upset me a tad. Okay, to be honest, I wasn't all 'that' upset, but it's still not nice seeing your work asterixed out of it. I am contemplating submitting another piece in the near future and am presently trawling through it, toning down my Fs and Bs until they resemble their more suitable 'cousins': frigging; crap; shagging, etc, etc. A literary bending of the knee to suit the more sensitive amongst these hallowed halls.:rolleyes:

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

For one, this is writing. It's not an exact science, and I'm not going to work out some clever sort of equation to what words I can use where, and how many pages between. It depends on the tone of your book. If you're writing for some seedy underbelly Chicago, mobsters in the 1930's, they're not going to chat amiably over the body they're dumping. There's going to be plenty of f-bombs, and they're going to come hard and fast. They will probably use it to refer to sex, too. If something is going to sound awkward, don't censor it. After all, it's going to sound pretty silly for a mobster to declare, "I want to have consensual sexual intercourse with you."

Alternatively, if your band of characters are mild mannered nurses in a children's school, I don't expect them to be cussing like sailors.

Personally, I think it depends on your writing. Millions of people talk in millions of ways. For something to be believable, you can't gloss it over. You can use something like 'Katey ducked out of the way, cussing,' but to totally avoid use of a word where is has it's place is ludicrous. It's just ignoring the elephant in the room.

I never did mean for that 200 page comment to be taken seriously, but other than that, yeah I was wrong as the context of a story can definitely be aided by the use of profanity. The example above is perfect and the rule can go for other scenarios as well, like an jail cell conversation or the commotion of a bar fight. So I'll have to revise rule# 3.

3. Keep it in context. Enough said.

And this may be helpful as well: You didn't **** her, you banged her.

I think the profanity in writing goes back to the history of writing. Some writers maintain an old style of ethics when creating their written works. Writing wasn't as open minded as it is today. The Late Isaac Asimov very rarely used profanity or sex in his 400 works of literature. When Kurt Vonnegut wrote Slaughter House-Five, it was banned in a lot of different schools and libraries, because he wrote "****" once. That was a few decades ago, but the creative prejudice was there (as it still is lingering today).

In my person opinion, It depends on the writer and the story being told. It depends on the characters, the plot, the situations, and the overall philosophy of the written work. An old biker, from the bar, isn't necessarily going to talk like a five year old girl. Actually, considering the media influence of my generation - I might be wrong.

I don't think profanity has the same value that it once had. A hundred years ago, the use of the word, "d**n" or "h*ll" might have been used for shock value. As profanity has regretfully become more prevalent in our society, the shock value has diminished.

This is not to say that there is no use for profanity. I would not expect a Harvard educated multimillionaire blue blood to use coarse words ... but ... bikers ... sailors ... low life drug dealers and gang members ... yes, yes, and yes.

It is my feeling that language reflects culture. This can be the culture of crime or poverty combined with ignorance ... it could be the culture of teenage bravado where young men think that talking tough will make them tough ... it could be the culture of abuse ...