Do you believe in a benevolent force, loosely described as God. I do.

Yes, as well as other forces beyond him/her.

I don't personify God, but isn't God intrinsically the ultimate force.

I think that there might be forces in the universe that we would call gods, but I don't think there is an almight diety that controls everything. For the most part I just consider gods to basically be the personafication of elements and emotions.

Interesting Shawdow Dragon. You've shown me a new way at looking at it.I think that there might be forces in the universe that we would call gods, but I don't think there is an almight diety that controls everything.I wouldn't say control, perhaps influence.
For the most part I just consider gods to basically be the personafication of elements and emotions.
I try not to personify God, but I don't know how realistic that is. If we are all a part of the same intelligence and share innate qualities of goodness. Isn't there a base force that connects us. On the side, can emotions get more simple than good and evil.

I try not to personify God, but I don't know how realistic that is. If we are all a part of the same intelligence and share innate qualities of goodness. Isn't there a base force that connects us. On the side, can emotions get more simple than good and evil.

However, good and evil are very subjective. What one person sees as good, another could see as evil.

Take for example the story of Adam and Eve. Most people consider the serpent to be evil, but I consider him to be the hero of the story. I think this because he is the one that allowed humans to control their own destiny, rather than just being servants to god.

So I can't say we all have the same innate goodness, when there are very few example of good, that all humans would agree on. The most base emotion in humans is to do whats best for themselves and those close to them.

However, good and evil are very subjective. What one person sees as good, another could see as evil.
I know what your saying but I think there are somethings that we can all truely agree upon, like the golden rule. It might be hard to get everyone to agree on anything but I think it could happen. I remember reading a Borges story that talked about a Nazi officer who was being sentenced to death for crimes commited while following orders. He said he was not sad because he knew it was wrong when he was doing it. I think if we truely look into ourselves we all have remarkablely similar ideas on good and evil.The most base emotion in humans is to do whats best for themselves and those close to them.
I see your point, but I don't agree with it.

I was raised Christian, and I think I still am, although I believe that organized religion has changed some aspects of the truth. But yes, I believe in God.

I believe that good and evil isn't really subjective. I think everyone, deep down inside, knows that something is wrong or right. Like murder is wrong. I'm sure most people would say that killing someone in cold blood is wrong, and that helping a complete stranger is good.

Also, I think this topic will be closed, just because the mods try to avoid religious topics.

I don't want to say no, just incase I die and I am sent straight to Hell because I never beleived in God, but I do not really see any reason why I should. I base most of my life around facts and things that have been proven, and anything inbetween, including religion and some parts of Science which is "iffy", I do not hold as truth of beleive in.

My mind may be swayed over the years, from aqquiring wisdom or more information, but at the moment, I do not think there is enough evidence to support Gods existance.

I do not believe in God, but I am sure there must be some kind of power out there, maybe a person/object, or maybe just some kind of supernatural force. There just seem to be too many things that happen through coincidence, for example, and tbh whilst I used to turn to science for the answers, most of the scientific explainations are, in my opinion, harder to believe than there being a God.

God - the way for (some) humans to explain things they dont understand.

Ancient civilisations explained earthquakes and lightning as the anger of God / Gods, back before they understood that it could be explained in terms of static electricity and seismic plates. Today, people explain "the Big Bang "as "God creating the universe," because it is not understood. When/if a more credible explanation is found, people will find something else which isnt yet understood, and latch onto that as something that is "the influence of God."

Take a look at Christianity, whose Bible told the old Jewish story of the world being created in seven days bla bla bla. People believed this story to the letter, until science started to explore the Earth's history and the evidence became overwhelming that the world, animals, plants and humans weren't spawned in seven days. After that, religious people suddenly changed their tune and said "It isn't supposed to be taken literally, it's symbolic." Strange how that belief only arose when they were basically proved wrong ;)

And i don't know if anyone else studied the same "Arguments for the Existence of God" that i did, but basically their top ones amounted to: "What caused the Big Bang then?" "Look at the wonders of the world, God must have designed this" and their top one, "If you believe in God you'll go to heaven if he's real and you'll never know if he's not, and if you don't you'll go to hell if he's real and you'll never know if he's not, so you might as well believe." :confused:

So basically, imo, God is a combination of wishful thinking and a simple explanation for things not yet explained.

I believe in some higher power - I think Karma could be considered a higher power and I quite strongly believe in that.

I believe in God, and I think all cultures have a religion loosely based upon God. I've been rasied a Christian ever since birth :D

I believe that Man created God in his own image. I also believe Man continually recreated God after earlier incarnations were "outgrown", to make God increasingly difficult to defien, and thereby difficult to disprove.

It's not a perspective I usually care to push on others, because it is very uncomfortable, to say the least, to those who do believe in a Creator. But it is a view I have held for many years. Many, many years.

Remember, you did ask! :)

God - the way for (some) humans to explain things they dont understand.

Ancient civilisations explained earthquakes and lightning as the anger of God / Gods, back before they understood that it could be explained in terms of static electricity and seismic plates. Today, people explain "the Big Bang "as "God creating the universe," because it is not understood. When/if a more credible explanation is found, people will find something else which isnt yet understood, and latch onto that as something that is "the influence of God."

Take a look at Christianity, whose Bible told the old Jewish story of the world being created in seven days bla bla bla. People believed this story to the letter, until science started to explore the Earth's history and the evidence became overwhelming that the world, animals, plants and humans weren't spawned in seven days. After that, religious people suddenly changed their tune and said "It isn't supposed to be taken literally, it's symbolic." Strange how that belief only arose when they were basically proved wrong ;)

And i don't know if anyone else studied the same "Arguments for the Existence of God" that i did, but basically their top ones amounted to: "What caused the Big Bang then?" "Look at the wonders of the world, God must have designed this" and their top one, "If you believe in God you'll go to heaven if he's real and you'll never know if he's not, and if you don't you'll go to hell if he's real and you'll never know if he's not, so you might as well believe." :confused:

So basically, imo, God is a combination of wishful thinking and a simple explanation for things not yet explained.

This is why I don't typically join in these conversations. People have a tendency to overgeneralize the Christian population and then dismiss it as ignorant.

I'm very aware of the role science has played in the advancement of our world and understanding it. I don't argue it by saying, "No, God did that."

Yes, I believe in God. No, I don't think science is witchcraft.

I believe that every generation wants God to say what they want him to say, so they invent their own way of belief in order to be more comfortable. I also believe that all religion has branched off of one central truth and as such, has an element of truth, no matter how weird it is. I am christian.

I am a Christian, and believe in God. I know that there may be a few other unexplained forces in the the world, but there is only one all-powerful God in existance.

I don't want to say no, just incase I die and I am sent straight to Hell because I never beleived in God, but I do not really see any reason why I should. I base most of my life around facts and things that have been proven, and anything inbetween, including religion and some parts of Science which is "iffy", I do not hold as truth of beleive in.
I think, because you made yourself vulnerable to this by posting on this thread, that I am justified to say something against what you wrote.

To be unsure of God but not wanting to go to Hell is simply absurd. If there's a hell, then there MUST be a god, because God created Hell.

So are you saying you're a Christian or not?

If you say you base your life around facts and things that have been proven, then you cannot be human. All humans believe in some other force. Many call it auras, some call it emotions, and the rest call it nonsense.

What is love? Has anyone been able to prove it? You cannot see it, but you know it's there.

You can't see the wind, but you KNOW it's there. You can't see magnetism, the speed of light, but you know it's there.

It takes faith to believe in God. It takes faith to accept that you are not fully in control over your life.


God - the way for (some) humans to explain things they dont understand.
Science--the way for humans to explain things they dont understand.
Does it mean that they're wrong? Not at all.


Ancient civilisations explained earthquakes and lightning as the anger of God / Gods, back before they understood that it could be explained in terms of static electricity and seismic plates. Today, people explain "the Big Bang "as "God creating the universe," because it is not understood. When/if a more credible explanation is found, people will find something else which isnt yet understood, and latch onto that as something that is "the influence of God."
First of all... today, (MOST) people explain the Big Bang as an accident, a 1 out of a google chances. Do you think such an event could cause the birth of the entire universe, WITHOUT some kind of force behind it all?



Take a look at Christianity, whose Bible told the old Jewish story of the world being created in seven days bla bla bla. People believed this story to the letter, until science started to explore the Earth's history and the evidence became overwhelming that the world, animals, plants and humans weren't spawned in seven days. After that, religious people suddenly changed their tune and said "It isn't supposed to be taken literally, it's symbolic." Strange how that belief only arose when they were basically proved wrong ;)
The whole of Genesis is a metaphor.


And i don't know if anyone else studied the same "Arguments for the Existence of God" that i did, but basically their top ones amounted to: "What caused the Big Bang then?" "Look at the wonders of the world, God must have designed this" and their top one, "If you believe in God you'll go to heaven if he's real and you'll never know if he's not, and if you don't you'll go to hell if he's real and you'll never know if he's not, so you might as well believe." :confused:

So basically, imo, God is a combination of wishful thinking and a simple explanation for things not yet explained.

No one's forcing you to believe in God. Just tell the Catholic nuns or whoever said that to shut up.

That book showed bad tactics. I don't even know how it was published.

Also, you're judging the entire ancient religion of Christianity off of that one book. that, I believe, is the stupidest thing.

What's with all the hate against Christianity, the faith that is supposed to love? Is it so wrong to share the religion?

Give me one reason why evangelism is wrong. Anyone.

I believe that Man created God in his own image. I also believe Man continually recreated God after earlier incarnations were "outgrown", to make God increasingly difficult to defien, and thereby difficult to disprove.
How did man create god in his own image again? And how do we keep changing our view of God, when we have the Bible to show who exactly he is?

Let me give you a picture.

There's God, building the world and universe. Then, a few billion years later, we have humans defying God. Saying they're not in control. Saying that God is unjust.

God is the potter. You are the clay. He has every right to do whatever he does. Does he? No. He gave you choice--although that was really Satan's doing, but even when satan did nothing, God DID give Adam choice. Did he force him in any way?--and you are free to do whatever you wish. Right?

I think people should be grateful that God hasn't killed us all. He could smash us like a pot of clay.

Dang, gotta go.

I don't really believe there is a God. I have to agree with Cogito.

I am not a Christian, or a Hindi, or Buddhist, or a Taoist, or a Muslim or a follower of any other religion. It is such a quandary for me, this epistemology. This epistemology has the capacity (which implies that something can happen, not that it will happen) to operate outside of the rational. That is a scary place for me. Religion plays such a large role in the lives of most people, yet it lies completely outside my capacity to understand.

There can be no doubt, that there have been individuals who have had an immense, positive impact on the morals of our race: Jesus, the Buddha, Gandhi.

What always alarms me is that their words and the actions of those who are their followers sometimes seem to be at odds. Note that I said sometimes. I will make no sweeping generalizations about any faith or religion.

I took a particularly awesome Comparative Religions class in college with a particularly eloquent professor who, very quietly, showed us that at their core, at their genesis, most of the major religions of the world, and those who founded them, have very much the same thing to say. This is not to say that their words are played or cliché, but that there is a commonality to what we as humans want out of a system of morals. We want people to be kind, considerate, respectful, loving, caring, compassionate, empathetic, and peaceful. It doesn’t really matter where we come from, or what book we read from, we want the same things out of life and out of each other.

That part, I can completely understand.

I believe in God, and have whatsoever no confusion over things. I have answers to most of the questions people have here, but as per forums rules I shouldn't be debating over them. Nonetheless, I'm a proud Muslim, I refute any link of terrorism or hate to Islam and tell you very briefly that Islam means 'peace'.

Take a look at Christianity, whose Bible told the old Jewish story of the world being created in seven days bla bla bla. People believed this story to the letter, until science started to explore the Earth's history and the evidence became overwhelming that the world, animals, plants and humans weren't spawned in seven days. After that, religious people suddenly changed their tune and said "It isn't supposed to be taken literally, it's symbolic." Strange how that belief only arose when they were basically proved wrong

Science has also proved how parts of the bible are actually true, so I suppose Science isn't really anti-religion. I believe in the bible, and that the world was created in 7 days. That does NOT mean that we were fully formed in 7 days. We were created, but we still had to go through many changes to become what we are today.

Science has also proved how parts of the bible are actually true, so I suppose Science isn't really anti-religion. I believe in the bible, and that the world was created in 7 days. That does NOT mean that we were fully formed in 7 days. We were created, but we still had to go through many changes to become what we are today.

Science isn't anti-religion at all, it is just trying to find things out. If science proved somehow that when you die your soul goes one way or the other based on how you lived your life, some could say it'd be very pro-religion.

I'm not exactly an expert on Genesis, but doesnt the Bible say that Man was created on the 6th day... which would mean that when God was doing the creating, he just stuck in a few fossils of creatures made to look like the lived before us(and i mean WAY more than 5 days before us) what, for a laugh?

Science--the way for humans to explain things they dont understand.
Does it mean that they're wrong? Not at all.

The difference between science and religion is that science comes up with theories and tries to prove them, whereas religion comes up with theories and tries to preach them


The whole of Genesis is a metaphor.

So i've been told... yet for hundreds of years people believed it literally, even though it was originally a Jewish parable. Basically seems like the whole belief in God (or at least a God anything like in religion) is because people interpreted stuff like the Bible literally when it was really supposed to be a metaphor.


No one's forcing you to believe in God. Just tell the Catholic nuns or whoever said that to shut up.

That book showed bad tactics. I don't even know how it was published.

Also, you're judging the entire ancient religion of Christianity off of that one book. that, I believe, is the stupidest thing.

What's with all the hate against Christianity, the faith that is supposed to love? Is it so wrong to share the religion?

Give me one reason why evangelism is wrong. Anyone.

I didn't mean that i was forced to believe in God - i live in UK and though my family is kind of "Christian" more than anything else, it never goes to church or does anything remotely religious.

And i didnt mean to be going on about one particular book, i meant that in general, every argument "for the existence of God" isnt really that at all - they usually seem to amount to "God's real full stop" or a Peter Griffin-esque "Ca' mon."

Also i dont hate Christianity, or religion in general as, although i find it to be rather pathetic that people still honestly believe in, maybe not "a God", but the the type of God portrayed in religion, religions do good work, helping others, contributing to charity, and instilling good values in people, etc. And although religion is responsible for countless wars and atrocities, most of us know that if it hadnt been for religion Man would have found some other excuse to do those things.

But i do think religions would be better off spending less time preaching about makebelieve Gods and more time doing the stuff that makes a difference, and teaching people to do good without threatening them with the fires of hell.

I don't think anyone's comment in this thread is "correct." God is real, and I know it. Some people just know. We can't prove it, but it's true. Trying to convince anyone of that is very hard to do, so I can understand why a lot of people think that believing in God is foolish. However, if you prayed and actually trusted in God, you would know. And the reason people preach about hell is because it's real, and right now the world needs to know that.

I like Terry Pratchett's idea in discworld, that if you believe in it, it'll happen to you. So if you believe when you die you'll become a mushroom, then when you die, you will.

That way everyone can be happy. Although it does mean the terrorists are all in paradise..... I seem to have found a flaw in this.....

Reminder - this is a subject guaranteed to arouse strong passions. Please keep in mind that everyone has some opinion on it, and respect those differing opinions. Let's not get into the trap of trying to refute one another's beliefs, because as soon as the thread becomes too volatile, it will be closed in the interest of keeping the peace.

Well i can see a few comments which definately aren't "correct" :p

If someone, hypothetically, "knew" whether or not God was real, and they pointed a gun to someone's head and said "Is God real or not? Get it right you live, get it wrong you die," (and lets say, in case religious people arent afraid of death because of their soul or what not, that if you die you go to "Hell"), then it is my belief that the majority, if not all of the people with some intelligence who claim they believe in God would say "No."

That makes sense to me as, weighing up one side with the other, while you can't necessarily prove either one, there is one choice that is far more likely than the other. And my belief of this is just like the belief in God - i can't prove i'm right obviously, but neither can anyone prove i'm wrong :rolleyes:

Do you believe in a benevolent force, loosely described as God.
in moments of stress i conjure god into existence. when his work is done i banish him back into the nothingness from whence he came. if he's been especially useful i'll tip him with a little prayer of thanks before he goes.

i have a short series of anecdotes about the times i've run into god and the goofy things that happened. maybe sometime i'll post those...

I'm not exactly an expert on Genesis, but doesnt the Bible say that Man was created on the 6th day... which would mean that when God was doing the creating, he just stuck in a few fossils of creatures made to look like the lived before us(and i mean WAY more than 5 days before us) what, for a laugh?

The Hebrew word translated as "days" actually is a more general term refering to periods of time. This could mean a day, or it could be millions of years. And as has been already mentioned, Genesis is highly metaphorical. You don't have to take everything literally.



The difference between science and religion is that science comes up with theories and tries to prove them, whereas religion comes up with theories and tries to preach them

Science does its fair share of preaching of its theories.


Reminder - this is a subject guaranteed to arouse strong passions. Please keep in mind that everyone has some opinion on it, and respect those differing opinions. Let's not get into the trap of trying to refute one another's beliefs, because as soon as the thread becomes too volatile, it will be closed in the interest of keeping the peace.

Vehemently seconded. Every religion-based discussion we've had so far has ended in flaming, and the moment I think this one is going to, I'll play the tyrant myself, and pull the plug. Discussion is fine, but if people start being offensive, this thread is gone.

oops, double post

I like Terry Pratchett's idea in discworld, that if you believe in it, it'll happen to you. So if you believe when you die you'll become a mushroom, then when you die, you will.

That way everyone can be happy. Although it does mean the terrorists are all in paradise..... I seem to have found a flaw in this.....

ROFL. I like it, we should put that into effect right now.

To be unsure of God but not wanting to go to Hell is simply absurd. If there's a hell, then there MUST be a god, because God created Hell.

...

Science--the way for humans to explain things they dont understand.
Does it mean that they're wrong? Not at all.

...

What's with all the hate against Christianity, the faith that is supposed to love? Is it so wrong to share the religion?

Give me one reason why evangelism is wrong. Anyone.



I don't think she's saying that believes in hell, just that she wants to have her bases covered just in case it turns out that she's wrong. I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.

About the science issue that many people have brought up. I always have to wonder why it is that when we figure out how something works people no longer believe God has a hand in it. Why does God's methods always have to be mysterious and beyond the relm of understanding? If we understand how something happened why would that rule out "God did it?" It seems to me that people believe that anything God does would have to be done outside of the normal way things work, which I don't think makes any sense.

The reason people don't like evangelism is because it is very uncomfortable, no matter if you are doing the preaching or being preached to. In effect it is telling someone that their most basic beliefs are wrong, and there's just not any way to sugar coat that. I am not saying that I believe it is wrong, in fact I believe the opposite. It does bring up a very relevant question for the person doing the evangalizing though. At what point does common courtesy demand that you stop trying to warn somebody of something with deadly concequences and unimaginable rewards? Because of the difference in value judgements and beliefs of the two people it leads to conflict and argument more often than not.

If you had fully read my posts you will find the part where i mention that i am fully aware that Genesis is a fullish metaphor, and the part where i say that i believe the Bible is mostly metaphorically but has become interpreted as literal over the years by most Christians... So i do not see why you accuse me of reading everything literally :rolleyes:

And my response was to someone who said, if i didnt misunderstand, that they *literally* believed the world was created in 7 days, so you'd be better explaining the Jewish meaning of things like 7 days and 40 days to them rather than throwing it up when i respond :eek:

Same for me about the religion/God discussions ending in flames, although that may be partially because of me some of the time :confused: I find it extremely annoying however when people say "God is real," and think it is okay but get offended by anyone saying "God isn't real." :mad:

Yes, I can't prove that you're wrong or that you're correct, so you cannot prove that I'm wrong or correct. At the moment it seems to me that you're going against your own statement, Silver Random, by bashing my beliefs. I know that God is real, but I can't prove it to you, so I'll leave it at that. It's my own personal belief, and I won't go into further detail.

God has his ways. I know Science has proven that other creatures existed long before us, but that does not mean that God doesn't exist. He works in mysterious ways, and there may be some unknown answer to that statement.

If you had fully read my posts you will find the part where i mention that i am fully aware that Genesis is a fullish metaphor, and the part where i say that i believe the Bible is mostly metaphorically but has become interpreted as literal over the years by most Christians... So i do not see why you accuse me of reading everything literally :rolleyes:

And my response was to someone who said, if i didnt misunderstand, that they *literally* believed the world was created in 7 days, so you'd be better explaining the Jewish meaning of things like 7 days and 40 days to them rather than throwing it up when i respond :eek:

Same for me about the religion/God discussions ending in flames, although that may be partially because of me some of the time :confused: I find it extremely annoying however when people say "God is real," and think it is okay but get offended by anyone saying "God isn't real." :mad:

To be honest, what I said was meant as a general statement, using what you said as a placefinder, rather than being directed at you. Apologies if I caused offence.

And yes, I also dislike that hypocrisy. But it goes the other way too, more often than people realised. People view things as black and white, and science and religion as mutually exclusive, when they are anything but.

And yes, flaming will equal closure. Keep your tempers in check people. We've had pretty much 3 pages of civil debate, which is pretty good.

Take a look at Christianity, whose Bible told the old Jewish story of the world being created in seven days bla bla bla. People believed this story to the letter, until science started to explore the Earth's history and the evidence became overwhelming that the world, animals, plants and humans weren't spawned in seven days. After that, religious people suddenly changed their tune and said "It isn't supposed to be taken literally, it's symbolic." Strange how that belief only arose when they were basically proved wrong

2 Peter 3:8 Do not forget this my dear friends, To the Lord, a thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years.

Note, how it was said, before people challenged the story as being incorrect. So, now, I withdraw from this debate. I believe in God, yes, but I probably couldn't defend my beliefs too well.

Also i dont hate Christianity, or religion in general as, although i find it to be rather pathetic that people still honestly believe in, maybe not "a God", but the the type of God portrayed in religion.

But i do think religions would be better off spending less time preaching about makebelieve Gods and more time doing the stuff that makes a difference, and teaching people to do good without threatening them with the fires of hell

I find it extremely annoying however when people say "God is real," and think it is okay but get offended by anyone saying "God isn't real."

People aren't getting offended at how you're saying God isn't real: they are getting offended at how you are portraying believers and, at the same time, writing them off as foolish as the ideas they believe.

I'm not going to sit here and debate the points, there's thousands of books on the subject that one can read, that aren't the Bible, if they so choose to.

I have my reasons for believing in God, and it is increasingly aggravating to be told that I'm "pathetic" for believing so.

I sincerely hope that this thread doesn't devolve to the point where anybody feels the need to defend their beliefs. All that the OP asked was what you believe. Please people, don't get overzelous. If you hear something that you don't like, just ignore it.

^ I agree. One of my best friends is Christian, and I am not. Does this mean tension? No, because he accepts me and I accept him. I respect and admire the teachings any religion, because a lot of the time I think they are meant to be about good, and kindness.

I would just like to believe that what I want to happen to me when I die will happen. That way the Christains get to go to heaven, but I dont get supposedly damned to hell, simply because I used my free will that was maybe given to me possibly by god during my life.

I mean this in no offensive way, and I respect everyone's right to believe what they want to, within the boundaries of morality etc etc.

Yeah, I got very angry when I read someone's post telling me believing in God was pointless and stupid...

Got something better to do? Go visit a forum, haha. Go do the thousands of pointless things you do. But guess what? These pointless things don't benefit you, do they?

No. Religion is more than just pointless. It's a philosophy. It's how we live our lives--or rather, that WAS the purpose of Christianity and many other faiths until man decided to eff things up.

This is how I believe it:

God planned everything out. You know, our lives are like one, big story. Man's story. His story. History.
Like a story, it doesn't really matter what happens in between. All that matters is how it begins--the big bang--and how it ends--the judgment.
With that said, God doesn't have control over our lives. He gives that power to US. If he was so "mean," like many anti-Christians say, then he could just make us slaves to him and that would be that. But he doesn't; he lets some people follow him, and the rest, up to themselves.

Many people blame God for the **** in their lives, which i don't get, if they don't even believe in him... But then, when they blame God, they also acknowledge him.
What a parody.

Please guys, no argueing. Its good to be able to talk about religion, without flaming.

I'm a polytheist, but I don't see the gods the way most people do. I think of them more along the lines as a personification of elements and emotions. I feel a connection to the gods that I believe symbolize the values that I think are important.

As long as your religion gives you strength then I think its a good thing. The only bad thing is when people try to force their beliefs onto others, and expect everyone to follow the rules of their religion, wether they follow the same god or not.

“This thread will self immolate in forty five seconds. Please move to a minimum safe distance. Fall-out from this discussion may reach a maximum radius of twenty miles. For your safety, please move to any area outside of the maximum radius.”

Fair enough. Good post, Shadow Dragon.

Yeah, it's good to have multiple faiths. With one religion, the world would be... boring.

I just don't like it when people go into my face and say "God doesn't exist," or something which offends my faith. That's not cool.

Evangelism is just like sharing the news. As long as the missionaries don't FORCE the people to convert, then I think that's perfectly okay.

I think the one basic arguement for relgion is this one...

I have read lots of threads on here with people in trouble, and I have watched the one on youtube about Terry Pratchett and his Alzheimers (sp?), and there have been lots of comments saying 'I will pray for you/him/her/them' or 'you'll be in my prayers'.

Terribly evil, isn't it, this religion thing?

Risen Glory, I respect that someone telling you that God doesnt exist is offensive, and I mean this in the politest and most respectful of ways, but don't you think telling someone who doesn;t beleive in God that he does exist is also offensive? It seems a bit unfair to have it work one way but not the other. I am sorry if I have upset you, as I really don't want an arguement, and I hope you will not be angered by this.

Everyone has a different idea of God. Many of you talked of established religion. But to Cogito I believe that Man created God in his own image Makes some sense, I don't see how humans can totally avoid personification. I would ask you how am I here? Remember in diplomacy there is no last word, but you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.

I think the one basic arguement for relgion is this one...

I have read lots of threads on here with people in trouble, and I have watched the one on youtube about Terry Pratchett and his Alzheimers (sp?), and there have been lots of comments saying 'I will pray for you/him/her/them' or 'you'll be in my prayers'.

Terribly evil, isn't it, this religion thing?

Risen Glory, I respect that someone telling you that God doesnt exist is offensive, and I mean this in the politest and most respectful of ways, but don't you think telling someone who doesn;t beleive in God that he does exist is also offensive? It seems a bit unfair to have it work one way but not the other. I am sorry if I have upset you, as I really don't want an arguement, and I hope you will not be angered by this.

I so WANT to talk about this, but I don't think it'll get us anywhere. But I'll say it anyway.

How would it be offensive to someone who does not believe a god exists? The man can simply shrug it off, do whatever pointless thing he's doing, and move on in life.
How is it offensive to someone who DOES believe in a god, and someone told him that there WAS none? Belief in a god is fundamentally the basis of how every religious human lives. To be denied that, by saying there is no god, is the worst offense ever.

I don't think it's offensive if a person who doesn't believe in god hears that there is one. How can it? Or am I just one apathetic human?

It's like this.

A boy sees a ghost in the school bathroom.
"Holy shyte! A mother-flippin' ghost!" he exclaims. He runs out and goes to his classroom and tells everyone what he's just seen.
"Load of bollocks, I tell you!" some classmate jeers.
"How offensive!" the female teacher goes.
The boy who saw the ghost looked ashamed. "I'm sorry I disturbed your class."
"It's not because of the disturbance, Ben." The teacher still had that hurt look. "It's because... I don't believe in ghosts. It's offensive to me that you insist that ghosts are real! I--I don't think I'll ever heal from this incident again..."

Now. Would the boy be more hurt, or the woman? Obviously the woman is totally taking this situation out of proportions, but you see my point. It's more hurtful for a person who is SO sure of his beliefs to be rejected than one who does not believe.

Fair enough. And firstly I would like to say I know that it would be offensive to be told that there is no God, and I understand that bit, which was not the point I was making. But the existance of God comes with a lot of attached baggage, as it were, does it not? I mean for example, am I right in assuming that non believers go to hell? If that's the case then telling someone that God exists if they believe he doesn't is saying that they are going to hell. It's a long stretch I know, but at the same time the main point is that you'd be offended because someone challenged your beleifs. Believing that there no higher power, or no God, or whatever, is still a belief, which being told otherwise is a challenge to. Or what if it's someone who doesn't believe in God, but beleives in something else? That would be contradictory to their beleifs. In the same way that I respect that you being told there is no God is offensive to you, can you understand the other side?

Surely if someone believes in God, and someone else tells them "God isn't real," they can shrug it off, continue pointlessly praying to whatever it is they pray to, and move on in life.

Yes, they can. If someone *really* believes in God (which as i said before, i dont believe there are that many people like that), then they arent going to hear one person say "God isnt real" and say "OMG NOOOOOO, i've wasted my life on religion." They are going to continue to believe in God regardless.

And yet you still manage to be offended, so i dont see why the reverse isnt true.

My belief is that there is no God, and i find it slightly offensive for people to claim that i am wrong in that belief based on their own imaginings... What i find even more offensive however is "I am allowed to tell you "God is real but there is no proof of that" but you arent allowed to tell me "God isnt real but there is no proof of that" or i will get offended." That is not even a simple matter of opinion, that is blatant hypocrisy of the type i would expect only from the most childish and ignorant of religious people.

No, it's not a long stretch. I actually understand what you're saying.
Two years ago, I told my Jewish friend that he was going to hell. I was a flippin' douche. But I learned NOT to say that. It's what I believe, but I don't think it's necessary to tell anyone that they were going to hell.

Is it a belief if someone says he or she does not believe in a god? It's more like a resistance, if anything. It's like... you either believe it or you don't, right? So, with that said--if you agree--then if you believe in something existing, it's a belief, and if you don't believe something exists, it's not a belief.

And plus--sorry if I'm sounding blunt--if you don't believe in a god, then you cannot believe in a hell, because God created hell, did he not? So why worry, if someone tells you you were going to hell because you didn't believe? You don't believe it. They're just fabricating a lie that's been going around since the beginning.

To the other side, when someone tells a believer that there IS no god, that's a whole different story. You're being told by someone that your whole LIFE is not real, because your god isn't.

sorry for double post, I just saw Silver Random's post.

Again, you're OVERgeneralizing faiths. That's not cool.

I didn't use to believe in god, I saw how religon was corrupted by man, and it was hard for me to make a distinction between the two. But the more I thought about it, the more I became a deep believer in a God.

Again fair enough. What i meant by not believing in God, is that people believe in something else instead. I believe in science. I believe it holds a lot of the answers (although not all). So this is a belief that does not involve god. So telling me different would be challenging my belief.

With the hell thing, yes if you dont belive in God you don't believe in hell, but put simply, this is the message someone who doesn't believe in God might get, if told that he does exist; 'You are wrong, and your goign to be tormented for eternity for it.' Extreme yes, but nonetheless true.

Basically I think it's incredably unfair to say that anyone who believes in something other than God can just shrug it off because it doesnt matter, whereas any who does believe in God has a right to be offended. I think your just dismissing everyone else's beliefs by saying that I have no right to be offended in the exact opposite situation to somethign that would offend you, and that is offensive, seen as how I have respect for yours, and anyone elses beliefs, and their right to have them.

But the existance of God comes with a lot of attached baggage, as it were, does it not? (Absolutely. I find that most people have no problem with the idea of God, but when you start talking about what effect that has on your other beliefs and your everyday actions that things get sticky.) I mean for example, am I right in assuming that non believers go to hell? (Not nessecarily. Some religions have no concept of heaven or hell, while in others those terms are a gross oversimplification of the belief and gives a picture different than what the person actually believes. Mine is of that second type. I always hate answering that question because it's like playing russian roullete. You never know when the other person will misunderstand what you say, or just not like it. It leaves some particularly nasty side effects all around.) If that's the case then telling someone that God exists if they believe he doesn't is saying that they are going to hell. It's a long stretch I know, but at the same time the main point is that you'd be offended because someone challenged your beleifs. Believing that there no higher power, or no God, or whatever, is still a belief, which being told otherwise is a challenge to. (You know, I've never really thought about it that way. Thanks.) Or what if it's someone who doesn't believe in God, but beleives in something else? That would be contradictory to their beleifs. In the same way that I respect that you being told there is no God is offensive to you, can you understand the other side?

Yes, they can. If someone *really* believes in God (which as i said before, i dont believe there are that many people like that), then they arent going to hear one person say "God isnt real" and say "OMG NOOOOOO, i've wasted my life on religion." They are going to continue to believe in God regardless.

(And most people do. You do need to remember though that it is not nessecarily the most popular thing to believe in god. It is also hard to maintain faith when people present well thought logical reasons for why they are wrong, and yet those people won't listen to your well thought, logical reasons for believing. (Not to mention the illogical reasons, which in many cases are just as important) There is an enormous amount of social pressure against being religious in the traditional sense, so some people respond against what they see as persecution by attacking back.)

"I am allowed to tell you "God is real but there is no proof of that" but you arent allowed to tell me "God isnt real but there is no proof of that" or i will get offended." (Funny, I've run into a lot of that same thinking, except exactly opposite. "I'm allowed to believe or not believe what I want, so don't preach to me, but it's perfectly fine for me to point out every reason your religion is flawed." I think things are probably more balanced than either of us believe.)


It's funny how much diversity there is in religious beliefs. It's always dangerous to make any generalization.

I believe what he is trying to say is that people who choose to believe in God give up their entire lives to serve him, whereas people who believe in Science . . . well . . . don't. So when Christians are told that there is no God, they are in truth being told that their life is a complete waste.

Science "believers" do not surrender their lives to science, and thus it doesn't affect them as much. Why can't you seem to understand that concept, Scribe Rewan?

nope!

and i write about all such human wishful-thinkings a lot... if interested, you can read 'em here: http://saysmom.com/maia/content.asp?Writing=239

fyi, i just sent 'In Whose Name?' off to the printers... it's the third in an eventual 6 books that will comprise most of my 'maia' work... it'll be given away to any who want it, along with the first two already in print, 'a mother's guide to clean-living in a dirty universe' and 'on the path to matera'...

if a 'free offer' tout isn't tabu here, you can email me for copies... is, feel free to delete this part of my post, dear mods]

love and hugs, maia
maia3maia@hotmail.com

I can perfectly understand why relgious people would be offended by suggestions that their God does not exist, as I have said many times, along with my respect for peoples beliefs. I do not think I could have conveyed much clearer how much I understand that point. In fact, I have not argued contrary to that, and in fact, not matter what I have replied with, my posts have always included the fac that I understand the other persons half of the arguement.

The only problem I have, is that you are telling us what offends you, whilst at the same time telling us what we can't be offended at. There are many other beliefs out there that do not involve God, and just because they do not does not mean that require less effort than believing in God. I spent a long time considering my opinion and my beliefs. Why can you not undertand that other people's beliefs are as important to them as your beliefs are to you, and so they will react in the same way?



I would just like to apologise to everyone else on this thread, as I seem to be the one who started this arguement. I am very sorry, and will shortly withdraw from this discussion to avoid it having to be closed. I am sorry for spoiling it for everyone.

I understand where you are coming from Scribe. People that don't believe in god have spent a lot of time thinking about it. So to say that they shouldn't be offended means that its ok to tell them that they wasted part of their life. Also Risen Glory there was one thing that you said which I really think was inappropriate.

How hard is it to accept Jesus as your savior?

A buddhist could say the same thing about accepting Budda as your savior, and a muslim can say the same thing about accepting Muhommad as you savior (to all muslims, I'm sorry if I misspelled his name). To those of us that don't see him as our savior it is hard, because it goes against the beliefs that we have formed from our life experiences.

...Man i had an awful lot to say on this topic, i wrote close to 4000 words, deleted them, wrote 4,000 more, then deleted those... sigh.... i'm an athiest. and i don't understand the OP's intent behind this thread. What do you hope to learn about here? Are you just trying to ignite some kind of emotional debate?

Risen Glory remember that "I don't believe in God" also means "I believe God doesn't exist." So by telling someone like that God does exist, you are telling them that what they believe is inherrently wrong, which is the same as someone telling you that what you believe is wrong. So if you're going to get offended at hearing "God isn't real," then dont claim that someone shouldnt be offended to here "God is real," when they believe the opposite. And if you dont think they are allowed to be offended, then you shouldnt be taking offence either :rolleyes:

Also i fail to see how that post can possibly be contrived as OVER@@generalising faiths considering it doesnt mention a particular faith, and mentions only belief in God and praying to something - which are both pretty fundamental parts of nearly all religions.

And CDRW you are probably right that people who dont believe can be like that just as much, but the one i more often i see people acting all offended at someone saying they dont believe in God but expecting them to be fine with being told they are wrong and have to take God into their hearts and they are going to Hell.

Also let me just say that personally, though i dont believe God exists, ill be willing to admit im wrong if he ever shows up. If there is ever any concrete proof that God exists, then i and im sure everyone else who doesnt believe will hold up their hands and concede the mistake. Trouble is, it is much more difficult to prove something doesnt exist, even when it is just a story that has been regurgitated over the ages and there is absolutely zero evidence. For example, i could believe that my fantasy novel is actually real and is happening on a far away planet, billions of light years away, that can sustain life, and then even though you know that it isnt, i can tell you that you are wrong because you can't prove that it isn't.

Okay so...I'm not sure if I believe in God. I've been raised as a Christian and I never once questioned God's existence until some recent personal issues came up (that's why I've been inactive here lately) and it just makes me wonder if God is actually out there. At times, I get random bursts of faith and suddenly believe in Him again and feel guilty about ever doubting His existence, but then within a few hours, I might just begin to stop believing again. Writing "Him" with a capital "H" is kind of a habit, by the way =\

I've seen a few posts talking about how some people think that science is against religion. Does that mean that all those scientists are anti-religious? Nahh. I think that they're just curious about the science behind how Earth was created. After all, they can kind of be assured that they don't have absolute proof right now, so there's still room for faith. This is all just my opinion, though :]

Did no one actually read my scenario?

The thing is, i find it hard for people to get offended when they say God exists. I don't know why, and I'm sure a lot of other people know why, but that's how I feel.

It's like me having this feeling that someone's going to call my home, but then when I tell someone, he keeps yelling at me, "NO! You're WRONG!"

I dunno, I think this thread is beginning to become a war.

I'm not offended-sorry if I said I was-when people say there is no God. Why? Because its their belief, and I think everyone should respect everybody else's beliefs. Not agree, but respect, yes.

So I'm sorry if I offended the people of science and tangible things...

Wait, i have a question to non-believers. No, that's not a good name. How about.. non-christians. Non-believers makes it sound like they don't believe in anything, right?

Could I ask why you don't believe in God? Just a question. There MUSt be a reason, because there is no reason not to. :/ if that makes sense.

screw it, i'll just throw in my 2 cents. i think a lot of people believe in god because they are brainwashed. God is introduced at an early age before you have fully developed a sense of self and surroundings and becomes a part of who you are, people in this situation are never really given a true choice to believe in god, the decision is made for you. childhood fears (hell) grow into adult beliefs, presto!, instant guilt-driven christian stereotype. Just an opinion and i'm not making some sweeping generalization, i'm just saying, i've had this debate before and wen you get down to the nitty gritty with some people it becomes obvious, they don't even know anything about god or their own religion, they are just blindly following the sermons of church and family.

here's an example, if i were to tell a 16-18 year old with a maturing brain and a pretty solid sense of who they are, that if they strap a bomb to themselves, hijack a bus and detonate themselves in the center of a crowded mall killing hundreds of innocent people that this will guarantee them not only entrance into heaven, but 40 virgins and a goat, they would think i was bat**** crazy. Now, if i told it to a young child, still developing a sense of self, still stuggling to make sense of the world around him, he would believe it, not because he's stupid, but because he doesn't know any better.. and when he grew up he would still believe it, because it's what he was taught all his life, because everyone around him believes it, and because no one can't disprove it.

is christianity a bad thing to be teaching to kids? i don't know, in some cases people turn out great. others not so good. it's hit and miss, just like with athiest parents. i think in the end it all comes down to the parenting itself. i don't think it's a good idea to let god raise your kid, like, to make god and religion the foundation of morals. My kid shouldn't not want to steal because god doesn't want him to, or out of fear of hell, he shouldn't want to steal because it's wrong to him and it's against the beliefs i instilled in him... beliefs that will help him survive in the real world. plus i don't know how i feel about a moral structure centered around a figure who will forgive pretty much anything. i think that's a lot of the reason people only believe in god when it's convenient, when they want something, or when tragedy strikes.

i'm singling out christianity because it seems to cover the majority of the theists in this thread. also, i'm not putting you down or saying anything bad about your religion. i'm merely pointing out things i've observed in my short time on this planet. people wanted reasons why people believe as they do and this is mine.


Could I ask why you don't believe in God? Just a question. There MUSt be a reason, because there is no reason not to. :/ if that makes sense.

I don't believe in god because there is no reason for me to. Sure i have questions just like everyone else, but i am not going to just accept any old answer because no one can disprove it. Science answers more questions with proof and facts than religion and so i choose that path, but this doesn't mean i don't have a spiritual side. i believe in myself, i believe in humanity and i believe our race will accomplish a great many things before we are finished. I believe we only get one life, one short opportunity to shine as bright as we can, and i'm not going to spend that time worrying about what happens when it's over. because truthfully no one has any answers but the dead.

(my wife's calling me to dinner, i don't have time to proofread or anything, so i'll probably be back later to edit this. sorry if i offended anyone.)

There is a God. He eve came down here and died, so that, one day, you come to know him despite that you told him daily you didn't want him.

I don't beleive that people are generally indoctrinated into God. The very theology behind it shows that we are naturally rebellious towards 'im.

I believe whole-heartedly in God and that he loves us, his children, very much, so much so that he sacrificed his son to pay for our sins. Why do I believe in God? Easy. There is too much evidence in my life and all around me that He is there and that he has a vested interested in my life.

And no, I am not brainwashed, and I find the statement that anyone who believes in God IS brainwashed quite insulting.

I knew it'd come to this... Religous battles between fanatics and agnostics... I Believe in God, and no one can change that. :D

I don't think anyone's trying to change what anyone else believes, at least i hope not. Everyone is at a different point in their own journey, what they believe now may not be what they believe tomorrow. The purpose of this thread, i hope, is to get a better understanding of each other, and why we believe as we do.


i'm sorry you felt insulted libby, but i did state that i was not talking about all christians just a a good many of the one's i've had contact with, perhaps "brainwashed" was a poor choice of words.

Could I ask why you don't believe in God? Just a question. There MUSt be a reason, because there is no reason not to. :/ if that makes sense.
There is a reason not to. It comes from common sense. How can so many people believe that a being simply clicked its fingers and created a world, and then life? It's ludicrous.

I wholeheartedly back Cogito earlier in this thread, and then Fluxhavok's long post.

Disbelief:

I believe I've come up with an answer as to why some choose to be Atheists or Agnostics. Picture a person in ornate garments placing a crimson box before you. The container does not allow you to see, smell, receive a tactile response from (since you wouldn't be able to touch the object regardless), or hear what is inside. Now, the person tells you that the item within created everything in existence.

What reason do you have to believe? You do not know this person, and his/her customs may be unfamiliar and contradictory to your own. There is no absolute proof that anything is in that box. Additionally, there are many shades of red, leading you to the conclusion that perhaps the believers don't know themselves. Not to mention there are as many hues as there are stars. Which is the correct one? Why is any one choice better than another?

Another example, which may not be as good as the first:

More or less, it is like buying something from eBay when there is no picture, and the seller has no stars -- thus no credibility. Furthermore, you will be expected to pay for the remainder of your life, and you're never certain anything will show. On the plus side, there is a forum for the store in which you can share your faith in the deliverance of the product with other buyers.

Personal Opinions:

My personal belief is that there is no absolute evidence for or against the existence of such a supreme creature.

However, the concept of a god does appear to me as a social construction. It would be understandable for laborers to wish for something more than a meager existence for their entirety, and a strict set of morals allows civilizations to advance. An abstract thought as such separates us from other animals, and further enables humanity to reach its harmonious potential as it stops us from killing to survive or gain massive wealth. [Disclaimer: With the small side effect of wars between sects.]

Basically, if you worked the land your whole life, you maybe begin to question your means once you see the nobles. With the establishment of a religion including an afterlife, your position becomes a temporary pain for an eternal gain. Additionally, it is an avenue to explain earthly phenomenon.

I have elected not to worry about living up to the standards of any particular god and focus on living in the present and bettering humanity -- which I'm quite certain exists.

The set of morals I have created encompasses religious beliefs, philosophies, sociology, and the scientific method to some extent. For instance, I believe in karma, in a sense. Society (first-hand or through the ideas implanted in its inhabitants; guilt) dictates what will occur after a deed or misdeed. In our society, if a man were to kill another person, he is seen as a miscreant and faces punishment by the law. However, if that same man commits the same action in a society where that action is accepted, he only has to worry about who might kill him. If, in our society, the man is not caught, he may be increasingly prone to accidents due to his own mental weariness. In our society, those emotionally attached to the person deceased, the law's enforcer, or the murder's own doings act as the bad side of karma.

Risen Glory:

Do you understand why a person of another religion might get offended by you proclaiming your god (or set of beliefs given that other religions share the same god) is the correct one? Those that do not believe in any god are similar.

Your scenario seemed quite slanted.

I don't believe in God because I've spent a long time thinking about it, and for me the idea doesn't hold the answers. I'm a very nervous person usually and I worry a lot, so for me science seems a lot more solid, as it were, when it comes to explaining things.

However I'd always admit that science can't give all the answers. I'm the kind of person who needs to die, look around at the fire and brimstone, and go oh bugger, before I can believe.

No, I don't believe in a god. (Couldn't just write 'no' because the post wouldn't accept less than four characters. Hmm.)

Disbelief:
For instance, I believe in karma, in a sense. Society (first-hand or through the ideas implanted in its inhabitants; guilt) dictates what will occur after a deed or misdeed. In our society, if a man were to kill another person, he is seen as a miscreant and faces punishment by the law. However, if that same man commits the same action in a society where that action is accepted, he only has to worry about who might kill him. If, in our society, the man is not caught, he may be increasingly prone to accidents due to his own mental weariness. In our society, those emotionally attached to the person deceased, the law's enforcer, or the murder's own doings act as the bad side of karma.

I'm not sure it's possible to apply the concept of karma to an entire society. The traditional belief is that one's experiences (good or bad) shaped their past, shape their present, and will continue to shape their future. In order for this to be applied to society as a whole, that society would have to be, in a sense, one entity. Everyone's past would have to be the same, as would their present and future.

Additionally, in the traditional sense of karma, the man's accidents wouldn't be attributed to his mental weariness. His mental weariness would be considered a part of the bad karma he is experiencing for malicious deeds.

Disbelief:

I believe I've come up with an answer as to why some choose to be Atheists or Agnostics. Picture a person in ornate garments placing a crimson box before you. The container does not allow you to see, smell, receive a tactile response from (since you wouldn't be able to touch the object regardless), or hear what is inside. Now, the person tells you that the item within created everything in existence.

What reason do you have to believe? You do not know this person, and his/her customs may be unfamiliar and contradictory to your own. There is no absolute proof that anything is in that box. Additionally, there are many shades of red, leading you to the conclusion that perhaps the believers don't know themselves. Not to mention there are as many hues as there are stars. Which is the correct one? Why is any one choice better than another?

So... you want God to just HAND himself to you? What's the point? Then you WOULDN'T have any choice BUT to believe in him, because he's real (if he showed himself to you)

I believe God does not 'show' himself to some people because he wants them to choose themselves. I mean, without choice, we wouldn't be human. That's what seperates us from animals. Would you be happy if God showed himself to you? It's better to find him for yourself.

Hmm . . . Why believe in love, if you can't see it, touch it, or hear it? Why believe in air if you can't see it, touch it, or hear it? Some people believe in ghosts and aliens, but you can't touch them, see them, or hear them. So why should God be any different? If you have enough faith to believe in him, then you do. If you don't, then you don't. It's no different than any other invisible thing that we can't see.

This may be a bit off topic and random, but I read an article that states a lot of scientists are calling it ludicrous to believe in Evolution, and that a lot of them are going to God. The chance that if the big bang was off by a milisecond everything would've been engulfed within a massive ball of fire, the chance that earth was suitable for living, that if something was off by only a little bit we'd not be here. A lot of them are saying that for us to be here, everything had to be precise, in fact to precise to call random chance.

I believe God does not 'show' himself to some people because he wants them to choose themselves. I mean, without choice, we wouldn't be human. That's what seperates us from animals. Would you be happy if God showed himself to you? It's better to find him for yourself.
Or, God's refusal to interact in any measurable way with the universe may be His utimate defense against being disproven through logic. That would include any means of proving His existence through measurable past actions such as Creation.

Even Faith has some foundation, some reason to hold onto it. If Faith is based on Faith itself, then what would be the origin of the initial act of Faith?

Could the answer lie among the dust of the discarded gods man believed in before there was a faith in the one unobservable deity? The gods who were used to explain such mysteries as the rising and ebbing tides, and the beginnings of life, and who were a comforting ally against the threat of invading enemies?

There is a human need for understanding, and for security. The early pantheons fulfilled those roles, but were vulnerable to Man's ability to find explanations that were based on measurable phenomena.

The point is, there is no evidence for the existence of God, and I believe that to be a necessary component in Man's creation of a perfect God. Yet the argument can also be turned around to point out that there can also be no evidence denying God's existence. So it comes down to what holds more weight for a particular individual: Faith, or the sum of Man's observations of the workings of the universe.

I've already said where I stand on this, but I am not about to ridicule anyone for taking the opposite position.

A bit of personal history: I developed my current opinion about the existence of God when I was attending Confirmation classes in the Congregationalist religion. I have refined my thought further over the years, but it's perhaps ironic that what brought me there was theological study to strengthen my faith.

Yes. what is the ODDS of a random catylistic event that brought birth to the entire universe, meaning, EVERYTHING? Why is it that we still have not found anything living on the other planets? Why is Earth the only one out here? It's right in plain view.

Sorry for double posting again...

Cognito:

What about the miracles Jesus performed in the name of God? There are countless records of his doing them, and you will take away human evidence? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The countless number of Christians going out to third-world countries and places to help those in need and share the Word?

If you believe that there is no existence of a god working through these people... I can't but feel that you are oblivious. What spurs Christians? God. What spurs agnostists? The end.

The Holy Spirit is like the wind. It's invisible, but with a few leaves and dust, you are able to see the work it does, loud and clear.

The odds of the cataclymic event are nearly 100%. We can observe a great deal of evidence that points in that direction not only qualitatively, but quantitatively as well (i.e. measurements to several decimal places agree with predictions based on mathematical models). The only reasonable question might be, "Did it simply happen, or was there a guiding intelligence behind it?"

As for life elsewhere, we have not reached very far from the surface of this planet, and the sheer scale of the universe is beyond our ability to truly envision in our minds. We just aren't equipped to grasp factors with that many decimal places intuitively.

As to your latest question, eyewitness accounts are not the most reliable source of evidence, as many who have been freed after years on Death Row can affirm.

(Psst: there is no 'n' in my username :))

I in no way believe in god. *hugs fluxhavok* You saved me that time of typing up all of that.

I also think that SOME people, not all people, believe in god because they want, or need to be saved. People think, that by praying, it can wash away their sins, or get them out of any situation. Most of the time- you got yourself into trouble. Get yourself out- don't ask someone to do it for you. Some people, on the other hand- can't help themselves and prair is in outlet to them- for hope.
Usually, people who want help pray for god. The truth is- god isn't coming. You need to help yourself.
This is all my opinion, and in no way is it meant to offend anyone.
I also agree wholeheartedly that some believers re brainwashed. Can you honestly say, that if I told you every day as you were a child that everyone grows wings- would you not believe it? Of COURSE you would- its the only thing you've been told!
Many people choose to believe in god, and thats okay. Some don't.

What about the miracles Jesus performed in the name of God? There are countless records of his doing them, and you will take away human evidence? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The countless number of Christians going out to third-world countries and places to help those in need and share the Word?

If you believe that there is no existence of a god working through these people... I can't but feel that you are oblivious. What spurs Christians? God. What spurs agnostists? The end.

The Holy Spirit is like the wind. It's invisible, but with a few leaves and dust, you are able to see the work it does, loud and clear.

Its easy to explain why countless people go to third world countries in the name of god:
They believe in it. Does this make it real? Not even close.

"If you believe that there is no existence of a god working through these people... I can't but feel that you are oblivious. What spurs Christians? God. What spurs agnostists? The end. "

No, its not the end. The BELIEF of god spurs christians agnostics. If GOD truly spurs them, he would have to talk to every one of them and convince them. And he hasn't. Just because many poeple believe doesn't make it true. Many people also believe that the holocaust never happened and that dinosaurs aren't real.
Arguing that countless records are kept of Jesus- How many are recent? None.
Isn't it quite possible that people misinterpreted Jesus's power? Could he have been a magician? A gifted and powered person? Does any of that make him the son of god?
Or did he tell you that...And people believed it. I don't see any facts to support god

I also agree wholeheartedly that some believers re brainwashed. Can you honestly say, that if I told you every day as you were a child that everyone grows wings- would you not believe it? Of COURSE you would- its the only thing you've been told!
Many people choose to believe in god, and thats okay. Some don't.

I completely disagree with that statement. Christians ARE NOT brainwashed. We don't follow God mindlessly and do everything he asks of us. Christians have their problems believing in God as well, but they manage to pull through. Christians don't mindlessly walk around, proclaiming God's existance. Sometimes they have to think about it for themselves, even doubt at times.

Of course you don't. Thats not my point. My point is:
When being raised, peoplewere taught that god is real, the bible is true, and to follow christianity. Why would people believe anything else? People were taught this. And thats what they believe. I sincerely doubt that parents sit their 5 year old down and ask them is they want christianity, athiesm, buddhism- anything. Christianity was and is their religion, and being told that other people doubt god is a bit shocking, and unsettling.
Maybe brainwashed isn't the correct word. It sounds extreme; but to an extent some people are.

I dont see how "we havent found any life" is an argument for God at all Lol...

Since you are using the argument "There is only one earth" and "we havent found any living things out there," lets assume for all intents and purposes that there is only one earth and that we never do find any living things out there...
Then you would have to wonder, if someone purposefully "designed" the universe, why did they create a googolplex useless planets and an unimaginable amount of empty space, yet only create "life" on one miniscule planet in the edge of one tiny galaxy... after all, most religious people seem to think that their God cares about "life" and about love and bla bla bla... so why didn't he fill his universe with living beings so he could get all the "life" he wanted...

Or is it more likely that, by chance, earth is the one planet (still assuming there arent any others), that is able to support what we call "life." People say "Oh what are the chances of a planet supporting life? Really low right, so must be God." But i'll bet that if you take every planet in the universe, and call earth "1 in x", then i'll bet that that'll be pretty similar to the "1 in y" odds of a planet being able to support "life."


And 1 ridiculous thing i've heard is "If the earth were a tiny bit closer to the sun we'd all die, so god must have positioned us perfectly." Its BASIC BASIC stuff people... ever heard that the individuals best suited to their environment are more likely to survive and pass on their traits to the next generation? Of course the things that survive are the things that are best suited to living *at this distance from the sun* and so they pass on their traits, until every organism is adapted to living *at this distance from the sun*


As for Jesus, lol, i'd have thought even most Christians would have dismissed his "miracles." They're *metaphors* people, remember those things that religion is fond of... Do you think Jesus really fed 5000 with a fish and a loaf of bread (if he did, i'd imagine they'd be pretty p'd since they would have got practically nothing), or do you think it is an exaggeration, or even a complete metaphor, to teach you the value of sharing - split what you've got between everyone and they will all be happy.


Im not saying Jesus didn't exist, because theres as much evidence he did as there is for most other historical figures, and im not saying he wasnt a good man as he inspired a lot of people and taught good values, but, in the same way people used to misinterpret the metaphorical "Genesis" and its Creation of the world in 7 days, and read it literally, people have read the stories of Jesus and taken them literally, as a carpenter's son who performed miracles by doing magic tricks, rather than as someone who worked miracles by inspiring and teaching others.


And as far as christians going out and helping people in the Third World goes, i personally would prefer to think that they were doing it because they were good people rather than because some God was working them like puppets. Would it not be better to admire the good in the actual people, like in Jesus who helped so many, or in the many christians who help people in the world today, rather than ignore them and put it all up to some imaginary God doing good in the world.

Even without a debate forum or some place to develop spiteful feelings towards each other, people will find a way to debate about God.

:: Sigh ::

People will find a way to debate about God.
:: Sigh ::

So true, my friend. I'm not against God, in fact I'm a believer myself. But whenever their is debate about him, things get hot and tension builds.

And as far as christians going out and helping people in the Third World goes, i personally would prefer to think that they were doing it because they were good people rather than because some God was working them like puppets. Would it not be better to admire the good in the actual people, like in Jesus who helped so many, or in the many christians who help people in the world today, rather than ignore them and put it all up to some imaginary God doing good in the world.

Why can't you admire them for both? That something they believe in so much has compelled them to go out and help people. This sentiment right here belittles the works of people like Mother Teresa who, I can assure you, would readily admit that God inspired them to go out and do good deeds.

Why can't you admire them for both? That something they believe in so much has compelled them to go out and help people. This sentiment right here belittles the works of people like Mother Teresa who, I can assure you, would readily admit that God inspired them to go out and do good deeds.

How many wars and terrible deeds were inspired by "God"? Some interpretation of "God" inspired the Holocaust and the destruction of the World Trade Center. Some murderers and serial killers have been convinced that they are doing "God's Work."

But rather than hating "God" for all these things, people blame the *people* behind the actions, who used God as a reason in their mind for doing bad things. So i dont see why the same doesnt apply for those doing good deeds rather than bad deeds. How can you say "Look at God working his good through Jesus and people helping in the Third World" (as someone said earlier (though thats not a word for word quote), which that part of my post was in response to). By taking that view, you would also have to say, "Look at God working his evil through Hitler."

I view the actions as the work of the "people", not the work of "God," whether they convinced themselves they were doing his work or not. If you're going to love God for inspiring the work of people like Mother Teresa, then you can also hate him for inspiring the work of people like Hitler.

I don't see how God had anything to do with the Holocaust...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/regarding_mussolini.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

xkcd.com is a very useful and versatile tool for giving a nice short visual statement on so many different ideas.

God wasn't working with Hitler, he was working with the countries fighting against Hitler. God did inspire Hitler to begin the Holocaust, but it wasn't God who told Hitler to kill the Jews. Hitler did it of his own accord.

That wasn't what I mean...

The Holocaust was about ethnicity, not religion. The confusion here is down to Judaism being a religion, but the Jews being a specific ethinic group.


EDIT: And lol at Godwin's Law :p

I don't see how God had anything to do with the Holocaust...

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews and Socialists, I am fighting for the Lord's work."

That would be Hitler. Whether or not he was lying and really believed that, no one can know - as i said earlier in this topic somewhere, i believe most people who claim to believe dont really. But since most others dont share that belief with me, and think those who claim to believe really do, then they can also believe Hitler really believed, and hence thought he was doing Gods work.

And so, the point of my post, if people are going to credit "God" for inspiring people to do good, then they can also blame "God" for inspiring people to do bad. Or they can do 1 or the other, and be hypocrites. Or they can do neither (as i do), and attribute the action to the individual in both cases, rather than saying that God had a hand in it.

Hopefully that clears it up, though i'd have thought it would have been fairly obvious why i was using that example given the context of the thread...

God did inspire Hitler to begin the Holocaust, but it wasn't God who told Hitler to kill the Jews. Hitler did it of his own accord.

Exactly. So if you believe that, then you should hence believe that while the idea of "God" inspired the other example, Mother Teresa to do good, she did it of her own accord.

And hence, the argument that i was addressing (that you can see the work of God in all the Christians doing good) becomes invalid. Hence the point of the post.

Am I the only one who thinks that neither side is making any sense any more?

For clarification the holocaust had nothing to do with ethnicity or religion. It had to do with money. In the same way today's media paints a negative image of Islam Hitler painted a negative picture of Jews. The Germans were hit the hardest by the depression because of the reparations they had to pay for World War One. But the Jews who lived in Weimar with they were generally wealthy. This lead them to be angry and Hitler used this anger to get in power and begin to expand German territory. They could have been Buddhists or Sikhs or whatever else it wouldn't have changed the situation.

Back on topic. I am apathetic to religion and could care less about the whole thing. I am not an Atheist. Atheists bother me, usually more than Catholics and other religious people.

Why are we even talking about the Holocaust? We all know what happened during that period of time, so why elaborate?

Am I the only one who thinks that neither side is making any sense any more?

I gave up trying to find any sense in this discussion. So I am with you.

Holocaust debate ends here. I'll delete any further references to it. I regret that I started this rubbish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risen Glory
Could I ask why you don't believe in God? Just a question. There MUSt be a reason, because there is no reason not to. :/ if that makes sense.

There is a reason not to. It comes from common sense. How can so many people believe that a being simply clicked its fingers and created a world, and then life? It's ludicrous.

I wholeheartedly back Cogito earlier in this thread, and then Fluxhavok's long post.

i can ditto that!


here's just one of the many writings i've done on the subject that will be contained in the soon to be in print, 'In Whose Name?' [copies free on request]:

Autoerotica

It wasn’t God made man in His image,
but man who fashioned God in his own,
bestowing on Him powers so great...
knowing he’d never assume such a state...
and gave to his proxy a heavenly throne,
dominion o’er all, just His alone.

Every flaw that you’ll find in God’s perfection
is something to which you’ll find man is prone...
like delusions of grandeur, vanity,
conceit bordering on insanity...
insisting that proper respect be shown,
to bow heads, bend knees, and prayers intone.

In any version of mankind’s Maker,
all the way back to those scratched in stone,
the ones resembling man the least...
gods depicted as some sort of beast...
the worst of his own aspects have been sown,
so his evil, his evil God will condone!

Murder, rape, genocide,
incest, war, a purchased bride,
looted cities and stolen lands,
bartered souls, bloodied hands,
denying sons, betraying brothers,
corrupting children, slaying mothers...
all that and worse, is purported to be
sanctioned by this or that deity,
whose face in the mirror, His makers see.

I don't know if God exists, I will never know. My belief in a force guides me. As somebody else said, everyone is at a different place in their journey. I'm glad we can talk about it peacefully. It's not that there is a right or a wrong answer, just different answers. Everyone make his or her reality.

I agree with you sfr, there is no definitive answer. All you can do is choose the one that fits you best.

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews and Socialists, I am fighting for the Lord's work."

That would be Hitler.

Did ya know-- Hitler had only one testicle. NOW we know why he did all that shyte!!!

We all know Hitler was crazy. Maybe his low self-esteem motivated him. I don't know, and we possibly can't know what was going on in his head when he ordered the deaths of countless people. He was a madman.

So, if one mad scientist told the world that he would destroy the entire planet in the sense of Almighty science, I think everyone will go, "OMG! SCIENCE IS EVIL BECAUSE THIS ONE MAN IS DOING THIS! NO WAI!" *Rolls eyes*

If you say God is evil, or Christianity is a load of bollocks, I kindly ask you to shut up. It just happened to be that Hitler said that speech. (By the way, you guys do realize that he made his own religion?) Or are you blinded by your hatred/whatever against Christianity that you insist on finding every morsel of evidence AGAINST it, including the speech of the maddest man on earth?

You cannot make Christianity the enemy because of one or few events. In a world where humans cause chaos, and humans bring peace, we must realize that anything can happen. Some religious people can cause themselves to believe that Allah told them to terrorize western countries.Some religious people can cause themselves to enact the Crusades. Others can cause themselves to kill all Christians in a certain, densely populated country in Asia.

Should we be angry, perhaps even justified to be angry, for something because of one event? Can we be mad at Germans today, or the general population of China? We can, but we should not.

Christians are taught to forgive. Forgive 70 x 7 the number of times they are forsaken. Maybe that's why we can see the difference between true Christians and you, Silver Random and the others who said Christianity was evil, etc. Those who learn to forgive things, even mass events that spurred hatred on other religions, even mass murderers who killed billions of people. That's where the difference lies. Without forgiving, there cannot be love, and there cannot be God. God lives within us when we do his deeds. In the Bible, he ignored his people when they ignored him. Until one good person popped up, Israel was royally doomed by neighboring countries.

When we do his deed--express love, passion, and forgiveness--you see God inside us. If we didn't do his deeds, how could you possibly see Him? You'd just see another normal human.

You obviously missed the point of the hitler comment.
The point was, you can't say Jesus was good because of god- because you say Hitler wsn't bad because of God- they both acted on their own accord.God didn't kill the Jews and God didn't do all of the good deeds Jesus did. Jesus and Hitler made those decisions by themselves. Your arguing that we can't make Christianity the enemy because of Hitler. We never did. You seem to have evaded our points.
When we do his deed--express love, passion, and forgiveness--you see God inside us. If we didn't do his deeds, how could you possibly see Him? You'd just see another normal human.
Who are you to say that love, passion and forgiveness are gods "deeds?
Are you saying because I don't believe in God, I'm lesser than you?
Thats what it sounds like. And to say that those things are Gods is ludicrous. I express love- I express passion-I express forgiveness. God didn't make me do these things. God isn't in me. God has nothing to do with what I do and why.
You'd just see another normal human.
This further supports that you think people who don't believe in god are less. I'll take being "just another normal human". If atheists aregoing to be stereotyped and discriminated against, and considered " just another normal human" instead of one of Gods precious children- I'll definetly take the athiest route. I can't back anyone who is in support of discrimination in any way.

Hmm, Risen Glory, i am growing rather sick of your constant need to ignore the context of my posts, and just see words like "Hitler" "God" "Evil", and saying "OMG SHUT UP IF YOU SAY GOD IS EVIL AND CHRISTIANITY IS BOLLOCKS."


I will say again, hopefully so that if you read it you will know that wasnt what i was saying

You, yourself, in a previous post, gave the example of "Christians helping in the Third World, inspired by God", as some sort of evidence that God was real and was doing good work in the world

I then said "People also do bad things inspired by God," so *by that logic* you would also say that anyone doing something evil and "inspired by God" is evidence that God is real and is doing evil work in the world.

Hitler was one example of smeone doing something evil, and that quote was given as evidence that at some point he told people he was doing God's work. Mother Theresa was the example of doing something good. My point was that it was the person involved that was choosing whether to do good or evil, and they were both merely expressing "God" as a name for what motivated them in their mind. I am sure that if neither of them had ever heard of God, Mother Theresa would still have done good and Hitler would still have done evil.

The point being that you cant claim God is directly responsible for doing good (as you did, which is the point of this post (see above in this post)), because he "inspired" people to do it, without also saying that by the same logic God is directly responsible for evil because he "inspired" people to do it. So basically the point i was attempting to make was that it comes down to, believe that God has nothing to do with the good or the evil actions of people and it is the people themselves that are responsible (as i do), or believe that God is directly responsible for all actions, good and evil, that he "inspired." You cant simply say he's responsible for the good but not the bad.


I am praying (pun intended) that this repitition has not been in vain and that you will not simply misunderstand/ not read this one as well. I appologise that i am constantly posting here :rolleyes:, but i cannot stand when people attempt to counter arguments when they dont even seem to understand what they are ;\

Ok, when a discussion starts invoking Adolph Hitler, it has surely run its course.

Click.