Same Sex Relationships

[poetryliberates]

I love this topic, i love the debate that follows. Its something people have been arguing over for centuries. I myself, have no problem whatsoever with gay/bi people, and have no problem with them wedding. If two people love each other, then whats the problem, we are all different. We will always have gay/bi people in our communities, they will not vanish, so why fight against it so strongly? they are human too, and should be treated no differently. Sure we all have different religions, ethnicities and beliefs, but we should not try and force them apon other people, how would you like it if they rammed their way of life down your neck...love is beautiful, and if it just so happens to be between two people of the same sex, then so be it. good for them. Dont try and make them feel ashamed of their feeling, just because you dont agree with it, it is someone elses life, concentrate on your own. for all of those gay/bi people out there, who have the guts to go public about you feeling and relationship....
i salute you!!!


Nikki

[ariella]

What people do with their own lives is their decision and I feel it has nothing to do with me. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is that we are all happy. :):)

[poetryliberates]

amen

[SeaBreeze]

I agree with u poetryliberates.
And people cannot help who they love/like.If they happen to have the same gender then they have the same gender. I have no issue with it

[newguy]

sex? what is this concept...
sex?

[poetryliberates]

sex? what is this concept...
sex?

umm noooo, way off mark lol

[SeaBreeze]

*snigger* wait.... I want to know too! waaaa!

[The Reaper]

Well I think the personality of a person is what counts not what they like.
OK i like women but my friend likes likes women and she is a woman. She is a sound person to have fun with. And she has a great personality.

And thats what counts. Besides it would be boring if we were all the same.

[Lily]

The only problem I have with same sex marriage, (and I know about 50 people will jump on me for saying this), is that marriage is a RELIGIOUS thing, and in most religions homo-sexuality is not accepted. So why get married under God, if you aren't living the standards that God has set? I'm not saying everyone who gets married is religious, but marriage in itself is a religious practice.
The other issue I have, is why do people care so much about 'coming out', why don't they keep their personal lives to themselves? You don't see me running around saying "I LOVE HAVING SEX WITH MY HUSBAND!", and trying to make a big point about it. Sure, it's great that you're different, and maybe I'm just a prude, but nobody cares what your sexual preferences are. I just think it's a bit animalistic to focus on sex all the time.

[Hellbent]

I haven't been happy since the age of four. I'm always just content with life.

And as far as Gay's go, women I can understand. They're just too damn...and HOT...really hot are some of them. Guys I don't get it. Don't want to get it.

I mean putting weiners in each others butts...:confused:

Not only is that sickening it's just wrong.

[bicker]

I cannot get into the whole gay debate. I'll tell you right now, I don't know if it's natural or an abomination.

I DON'T CARE!

If two people want to legally commit to each other, thereby suffering all penalties and accruing all benefits attached to it, what's the big deal?

They let old spinsters leave their estates to their cats... is that unnatural? Hell yes, but they still let it happen.

[Ferret]

I've always thought that the government shouldnt have a thing to do with marriage...and that we should settle our affairs by ourselves....
I'm catholic and as you would guess I dont favor the istitution being open to gays...but I have nothing against gays if they want to be married what reason do I have to say no....?
If they arent religous...why should Impose the laws of God on them?
On the flip side; if most americans beleive that homosexual marriage is wrong...than I Think the government should go with that and change the law accordigly....

[IndianaJoan]

I haven't been happy since the age of four. I'm always just content with life.

And as far as Gay's go, women I can understand. They're just too damn...and HOT...really hot are some of them. Guys I don't get it. Don't want to get it.

I mean putting weiners in each others butts...:confused:

Not only is that sickening it's just wrong.

Gay men are not the only ones who have anal sex ..just FYI

[Halo]

Well said there.
Some women like anal sex.

[Renaul]

Before I say anything, I would like to say that I find homosexuality between men to be revolting. Unfortunately, I am just hardwired that way; however, in our society people do things all the time that seem to us to be moraly obscene, yet if we are to persue these people then we must first justify our reasons for doing so--and no, "because it was morally wrong" will not hold up in a court of law--for good reason.

One of the things that we should ask ourselves is: Will allowing these people the freedom to do a particular thing harm or otherwise infringe on the freedom of another person? In the case of homosexuality the answer is generaly no and I have argued this very point several times in the past; however, I find that most people reply as one devout christian mother did when she said to me "but, if we allow them to do that then what is to stop them from sleeping with our children or your children for that matter." So at that point I was compelled to say "Ah, but that falls into a entirely different category of behavior. People who are child molesters are people who we want to persue because they inflict serious emotional and mental damage on their victims--which I might note often late become homosexual; however, homosexuals on the other hand--assuming that they are consenting--do not harm others, or rather it does not require that they harm another person to exercise that particular freedom."

And that my friends, is what I believe. Not that homosexuality is right or that it is wrong, but that I as a citizen of the United States who believes in the ideals upon which this country was founded do not have and can not have--in good faith--the right to impose my beliefs, what ever they may be, on any other citizen, because the fact of the matter is that while homosexuality in itself may be moraly wrong by my standards, imposing those standards on another person would be far more harmfull to them then homosexuality could ever be--by itself that is--to any other human being.

Of course, while I have not actualy addressed the topic at hand, what I have done is shown you the tools which I use to decide for my self. So, take what I have just said and apply it to the topic of marrage. I trust you will find the answer to be the same.

If you still feel the need to judge, then perhaps we should prevent aetheists from marrying? Or perhaps we should also prevent non-christians from praying? It is a christian pratice, is it not? Not to mention that the bible does say "Judge not, lest you be judged" but that aside if I am not beating up this topic too much I could also bring up the past classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder and as russian psychiatric hospitals proved, a status of mental incapasity was often a way to discriminate against certian groups. I appologise if I seem to be beating a dead horse, but morals aside, it is descrimination, no different than if the group in question was african american, jewish, muslim, elderly or a woman.

It's almost funny. I have single handedly tired myself of this debate, so if you feel offended or anything of the like, I appologise. I am an idealist at heart and while it frustrates me that I can not alter the oppinions of the people who oppose my view, I can let others voice their oppinions, read them and come to a comprimise somewhere inbetween, because that is what we who believe in democracy do.

[The Freshmaker]

Yes, I believe they exist.

[Robert]

I love this topic, i love the debate that follows. Its something people have been arguing over for centuries. I myself, have no problem whatsoever with gay/bi people, and have no problem with them wedding. If two people love each other, then whats the problem, we are all different. We will always have gay/bi people in our communities, they will not vanish, so why fight against it so strongly? they are human too, and should be treated no differently. Sure we all have different religions, ethnicities and beliefs, but we should not try and force them apon other people, how would you like it if they rammed their way of life down your neck...love is beautiful, and if it just so happens to be between two people of the same sex, then so be it. good for them. Dont try and make them feel ashamed of their feeling, just because you dont agree with it, it is someone elses life, concentrate on your own. for all of those gay/bi people out there, who have the guts to go public about you feeling and relationship....
i salute you!!!

Nikki
Nikki .... um, are you coming out????

Cheers,
Rob

[Robert]

I am a lesbian, and I have been naturally attracted to women.
You keep away from my wife, you hear me? She's mine, damn it!

[newguy]

This got a bit strange hmhm hahaha
and nikki...Are you
Kidding ok

[Max Vantage]

It always makes me laugh seeing people trying in vain to understand homosexuality as a logical thought process to be defined through heterosexuality. D'oh! :rolleyes:

[Renaul]

A common use of bullshit in this society today. Religion brings power into this debate and yet scientifical research shows that there is no God, there is no Heaven, there is no Hell. So there is no need or reason to bow or pray to something that doesn't seem to be existing. I can see you and me, "Lily" not getting along.

I am a lesbian, and I have been naturally attracted to women. No I don't shave my head bald, nor do I act manly. I act myself. Now would I want to get married, maybe someday. It would be nice but not right now. I am currently single right now, I mean I have my ties with people but it's just that unconditional love that spreads like a viral disease.

And yes I am proud of it. I do agree with many people on this topic, if you love someone, you love them, no matter what age, sex, religious beliefs, race, nor color.

That's my two cents on the matter.

Now before I start "stiring the pot" as one person might say. Let me smooth things over a bit by saying I have come to the same decision on this matter as you have. With that said, short and simple, your going about it all wrong and your not helping to persuade anyone.

First, consider your topic. You have a hostile audience. There are no if's and's or but's about it. It is a controversial issue and that is fact. So when you approach these topics pretend that your some one like Al Pachino or some other actor. Male or Female, whatever just so long as they have charisma.

Next, you start off your arguement by saying there is no god. I don't even know why you did that nor do I want to know. You might as well have just walked up to them, spit in their faces and told them you had an affair with their mother. I doubt many people even took half of what you said to be serious after that, because that is what happens when you offend a hostile audience. I apologise if I sound rash or anything of the sort; however, you would do well to find a common ground with most people and use it to get them to listen to you. Perhaps, your all human or you believe in freedom or any one of a number of things.

So, if you want to debate then find a common ground and debate, but if you want to fight start by telling people that they are wrong. Keep in mind that people are not persuaded over night, but by degrees.

So, in closing I would like to say that I agree with you Katherine; however, you are not helping my arguement, nor your own for that matter and while I see that you have strong beliefs and will defend them agressively, keep in mind that agressive is only effective against people who already hold the same oppinion as you do.
---------------------------------------------------
Edit: Also Lily, upon later review I would like to point out that a "Marriage" is not a religous "thing" as you so eloquently defined it. Marriage is a state of union between two people that is recognized by the state. By religion I assume that you are talking about christianity. I may assume wrong; however, by point remains the same either way, because there are christians, muslims, buddists and aethists that all marry and not one of them is required to marry in a church nor are they required to be married by a priest or any religious figure for that matter. If marriage were defined as a religious "thing" then there would be no cause for worry for these people as their constitutional rights would allow them the freedom to decide. In addition may I remind you that Polygamy was a "religious thing" to some people. At one point in time, people who commited fornication were abducted and thrown into insane assylums against their will. Religon is not the be all end all of debate. More often then not it is the gateway to a larger and more heated one.

[Psycho]

Somehow I managed to stumble across this topic...it caughtmy particular interest.

Not to bash anybody, but according to the laws of nature and God, homosexuality is a sin and abomination against Him. He strictly says in the Bible (Sodom and Gomorrah) that it is a sin. He destroyed the whole city because of it. It has nothing to do with "if they love eachother, so what?" of course we all sin...its nothing new. But all it is is a possesion. When God created earth he made man and woman. He said "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" he never made man and man, or woman and woman. He made both of the opposite sex and it was good and clean and pure. The world has hit a brick wall these days and its clear that communities are getting f**ked up. If a man has an attraction to another man, doesn't that seem a little wrong? If God had created it that way, he would have made it possible for them to reproduce... If it was right in the beginning and Adam and Eve's sons/daughters were only attracted to eachother,(woman to woman, man to man) we wouldn't be here, would we? According to laws of nature, (and I really hope there are people that can back me up on this...) a man needs a woman to reproduce, (biology classes guys!!) and the same thing with woman and woman. Now there is a difference between bisexual, and just strictly gay. I don't see anything wrong with bisexuality between women...it never said anything against it in the Bible. But it clearly reads that male homosexuality is strictly forbidden. Then again, I do not stand for lesbianism either seeing as if a woman is only attracted to a woman, (which is completely un-natural) I consider it wrong also. Also, if there is a man who is attrated just to a man, doesn't something seem wrong also? Marriage is a religious thing where two people in love are united by the hand of God. Why would God be pleased with two people getting married that are disobeying the laws of nature/life in general?

IMO, its un-natural and sick. If anyone here believes in the Bible but still agrees with same-sex marriages, theres something seriously wrong.

[IndianaJoan]

Somehow I managed to stumble across this topic...it caughtmy particular interest.

Not to bash anybody, but according to the laws of nature and God, homosexuality is a sin and abomination against Him. He strictly says in the Bible (Sodom and Gomorrah) that it is a sin. He destroyed the whole city because of it. It has nothing to do with "if they love eachother, so what?" of course we all sin...its nothing new. But all it is is a possesion. When God created earth he made man and woman. He said "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" he never made man and man, or woman and woman. He made both of the opposite sex and it was good and clean and pure. The world has hit a brick wall these days and its clear that communities are getting f**ked up. If a man has an attraction to another man, doesn't that seem a little wrong? If God had created it that way, he would have made it possible for them to reproduce... If it was right in the beginning and Adam and Eve's sons/daughters were only attracted to eachother,(woman to woman, man to man) we wouldn't be here, would we? According to laws of nature, (and I really hope there are people that can back me up on this...) a man needs a woman to reproduce, (biology classes guys!!) and the same thing with woman and woman. Now there is a difference between bisexual, and just strictly gay. I don't see anything wrong with bisexuality between women...it never said anything against it in the Bible. But it clearly reads that male homosexuality is strictly forbidden. Then again, I do not stand for lesbianism either seeing as if a woman is only attracted to a woman, (which is completely un-natural) I consider it wrong also. Also, if there is a man who is attrated just to a man, doesn't something seem wrong also? Marriage is a religious thing where two people in love are united by the hand of God. Why would God be pleased with two people getting married that are disobeying the laws of nature/life in general?

IMO, its un-natural and sick. If anyone here believes in the Bible but still agrees with same-sex marriages, theres something seriously wrong.

That is if you believe that the current interpretation of the bible is not skewered. I believe in christ and i am with another woman and have been for the last three years.

God is my judge, not you. If you were to literally believe everything the bible supposedly teaches and follow it, then christmas trees would be banned, tattoos would be forbidden, there are a million other examples i could reference to you about old testament principles versus where we are today as a society.

One thing that passes right over the heads of people who believe like you do is the fact that GOD HIMSELF stated there is no sin greater than any other. Should you choose to believe that me being with someone I love is a sin (because u label it homosexuality) and that I will be condemned to hell for it, then I suggest you hang on for the ride, because you will be in the car right behind me.

The nature of christ was to love..LOVE. He spent time with prostitutes, spent time with criminals, ate with them drank with them. The modern day christian movement is absolutely so far from this that its disgusting.

Im going to go home tonite and find a list of every single thing the bible throughout the old and new testament commands us not to do or partake in and list them all here for you so you can see just how absurd this really is.

As for your poor example of Sodom and Gomorrah, it was NOT homosexuality that drove him to destroy it, it was self indulgent wickedness, prostitution, a lack of anything other than the means to please oneself. Dont be ignorant by making statements that the destruction of this biblical city was about homosexuality. I suggest you read more about it. The problem with the city is that there was no love, it was the city of sin and pleasure devoid of good hearts.

I also would like to suggest that you NOT suggest there is something WRONG with me because i call myself gay and believe in christ...since when was there some special rule about who could believe?

[Ferret]

The things like wearing not more than one kind of fabric at once is mentioned ONCE in Levitiucs.....
Homsexuality is brought up several times.....

[IndianaJoan]

The things like wearing not more than one kind of fabric at once is mentioned ONCE in Levitiucs.....
Homsexuality is brought up several times.....


Really? Show me. I want biblical references

[Jack The Ripper]

I myself never understood why its an issue with so many people. Who cares whos gay lesbian black white asian.
Life goes on. Love is about something between usually two people. Sex is about fun.
I'd like to think we are mature enough to except all these values in society. OK i love women i really do why should it bother anyone what a person likes.
I'll tell you what i think, its because people don't understand and are afraid.





Your Old Pal jacky

[Lily]

Just to clarify, I never said homosexuals are bad people or that they are wrong in the way they feel. I know you have real feelings toward people of the same sex. Believe me, I've been there myself. I simply told you what my opinion was on same-sex marriage, and that I disagree on it. I just don't share your opinions and you should be just as accepting of that as I am of your lifestyle. Me thinking same-sex marriage is wrong doesn't mean I think you shouldn't be with the person you love. By all means, love away. Marriage has more to do with being unified under God, and if you don't believe in God anyway, why would you care to get married? Marriage in itself is saying "I want to be with you until death does us part, and I want God to be the center of our relationship." That is what marriage is about.

[Psycho]

Look sweetie, I'm not trying to be your judge...nor any others. I'm stating my opinion...is that so wrong?

And yes, those things about Sodom and Gommorah that you stated WERE correct. But wickedness can also be involved with homosexuality...wickedness is a broad term. God mentioned it in the Bible. God cursed Ham for homosexuality...if you have read the stories about Noah. You can choose to believe what you wish, I will believe what I wish, and we can all move on with our lives, okay? Don't accuse me of being wrong because according to personal opinion, I am right.

[Ferret]

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/
I cant rember from the top of my head ..it was ahwile since the bible study...
Romans- near twenty...I think
leviticus - 18-20 somehere in there
And at least one more...Gensis...19?
Exodous..?

[Renaul]

Before you go around preaching about fire and brimstone, you should ask yourself "Is it ok if people believe different than me?"

So we're not all christians or some of us are of different denominations. Well, to those of us who are, do you think that Jesus would force his own beliefs on other people?

Here, let me post again and this time I will just cut and paste:

There are a few views that I must address as a christian and as an american. When I state what I believe keep in mind that I am an idealist at my very core. I may try to keep things in perspective; however in terms of right and wrong there is no compromise. (That last sentence is almost asking for harsh criticisim so before I put that out there let me first say that I am talking about me comprimising with my own views of right and wrong. I'll admit, comprimise was a bad choice, because it could mean more than one thing. While I will not change my views, because they are unpopular I do believe that we can come to a middle ground.)

First and foremost on the topic of homosexuality. I do not condone it. I do not like it. The very thought of it makes my stomach churn; however I can not sit idle while people (mostly elder male republicans) attempt to burn them at the stake. That in itself is one of the few things that does not sit right with me.

From my point of view as a Christian I must not judge and as an american I should be tollarant of other cultures and life styles. What would happen if all the christians of every denomonation in the united states unanimously decided to kill all the muslims in the united states or more importantly and more realisticly would it be wrong to prevent muslims children from being raised in a traditional muslim society that encourages them to be closed minded and xenophobic? Before you answer keep in mind that when I ask would it be wrong I do not ask if it would lead to a positive outcome. Rather I ask, do we have the right?

Some people believe that the ends justify the means. I believe that if we as americans hold dear the same values that our country was founded upon it requires that we acknoledge that the ends definately do not justify the means. We can not in good conscience pretend that the "God given" "Inalienable rights" that an individual posesses do not exist out of convienence even reguardless any particular aspect about that individual we might find to be unplesant to say the least whether they be islamic insurgents, homosexual, or mass murderers for that matter. Simply put I believe that as long as an action causes no harm then every person has the right to choose to or not to do so.

For example, people have the right to lie at times. Of course not in front of a jury as it would cause harm to another person. another example is that a person is allowed to own a gun and defend himself resulting in the death of another, but as a christian they would have comitted murder.

Simply put I believe homosexuality to be a sin, but not a crime. It would be concievable for a homosexual to repent but not overcome temptation the same way we continualy lie, envy and do all other manner of sins, yet still go to heaven and in the end we would be no better or worse than they. George Bush could sit at the same table as michael jackson and mother theresa and all three would be equals--i make no assumptions to whether president bush is right or wrong but when i place his name here I refer to the absolute fact that he has been the cause of a tremendous loss of life in certian areas in the globe. A just war is still a war.

Finaly I would like to say that I say all this in responce to the comments of a writer that I absolutely admire. He stated that he believes that to have feelings of homosexuality is not a sin but to sleep with a person of the same sex is and that he is opposed to any legislature that would give gays and lesbians more rights and would support legislature that would prevent them from interacting with the community. (or so i percieved it) To this I say that in the bible there is a verse in which jesus tells his deciples that if in their mind they think of commiting a sin then they have already comitted the offence. And to the last part I say "Judge not, lest you be Judged"

This last part of advice from Jesus is very applicable to modern life and could easily be interpreted as him telling us that we should speak our mind and say what we think is the right, but not to try and persuade with force because the use of that force would be wrong. And thus as both a Christian and an American the ends definately do not justify the means.

(This last piece was for an essay that I was writing. It was a rough draft so there are flaws and I did not list any sources, but it still says what I want to say.)

[The Freshmaker]

I haven't read this entire thread, but...Scientifical? Come on, honestly.

I'm praying to non-existent God that someone else caught that.

[Psycho]

I do not agree with the part "it is a sin but not a crime".
You're right, its not a crime. But its a disobeying to God's rules, so technically you can consider it a crime against the covenant of God. Jesus said, "For the wages of sin is death" but he died on the cross to forgive us our sins..."the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord"
Just because He made it easier for us, bore our burden, received the punishment and died, it doesn't mean that whatever we do is "lalala all forgotten! everything is cool and fine I can disobey as much as I want and not face the consequences!!" You WILL face consequences...all of us will.

So it is with sodomy. Whoever has commited this act against God, will be punished...theres no escaping that.

[The Freshmaker]

I do not agree with the part "it is a sin but not a crime".
You're right, its not a crime. But its a disobeying to God's rules, so technically you can consider it a crime against the covenant of God. Jesus said, "For the wages of sin is death" but he died on the cross to forgive us our sins..."the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord"
Just because He made it easier for us, bore our burden, received the punishment and died, it doesn't mean that whatever we do is "lalala all forgotten! everything is cool and fine I can disobey as much as I want and not face the consequences!!" You WILL face consequences...all of us will.

Really, that argument would only matter to someone who believes in God.

[Psycho]

well, of course. Like I said, this is my opinion....

[The Freshmaker]

I think it's better to leave God out of this argument altogether. So the Bible speaks out against homosexuality. Well, that's fine and dandy, but not very conducive to social progress. The New Testament also has a number of verses saying that women should not speak in the church, and should be completely submissive. However, there are now millions of women worldwide who are active in their churches. No one says to them, "The Bible clearly states that it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

That's all I'm going to say for now. I prefer not to get very involved in these debates. It's just the same thing over and over again.

[IndianaJoan]

I do not agree with the part "it is a sin but not a crime".
You're right, its not a crime. But its a disobeying to God's rules, so technically you can consider it a crime against the covenant of God. Jesus said, "For the wages of sin is death" but he died on the cross to forgive us our sins..."the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord"
Just because He made it easier for us, bore our burden, received the punishment and died, it doesn't mean that whatever we do is "lalala all forgotten! everything is cool and fine I can disobey as much as I want and not face the consequences!!" You WILL face consequences...all of us will.

So it is with sodomy. Whoever has commited this act against God, will be punished...theres no escaping that.

I find this hellfire and brimstone preaching to be offensive..i will say this once

God is my judge..not you..not anyone else.

I am going to abandon this thread because i just cannot tolerate listening to this brainwashed bs.

I am not forcing marriage down anyones throats and the only reason some gay people are fighting for those rights is because they are NOT protected or BENEFITTED when their partners die or become ill.

They have zero rights and civil unions do NOT fix that.

As for you out there who want to interpret Gods laws by your own standards, thats fine but never assume that I have no right to believe in God simply because i live a lifestyle that YOU interpret to be wrong.

You believe what you want to believe but do not press it down my throat, insult me, or otherwise insinuate that i cannot worship Jesus Christ just the same as you.

I will say it again, there is not ONE sin any greater than ANY other...from the smallest lie, the glutton, the self absorbed, the theif, the murderer.

If you think homosexuality is wrong, fine, but dont say its wrong and follow it up with a "you will burn in hell" or a "somethings wrong with you if u are gay and worship christ".

I dont want to hear this crap, I have my set of beliefs. I do not walk into your church and shout obscenities nor do i disrupt your way of life by tearing your families apart and denying you ANY right to do as you please.

You are commanded by God to do one thing, love one another. And to be honest, the bible is very straight forward in one thing...there is but ONE sin that will keep you from heaven..and that is the sin of not knowing jesus christ as your personal saviour.

So, all you christians out there...deny that..tell someone who has invited christ into his heart that hes going to hell because he fell off the wagon one day and had a drink. I am so sick of judgemental people and with that I will leave this thread. I probably should lock it, but I wont because you all need to have a right to talk about things. I just ask that you not speak out of ignorance and misinformation. State your beliefs and why and leave it at that.

[IndianaJoan]

I think it's better to leave God out of this argument altogether. So the Bible speaks out against homosexuality. Well, that's fine and dandy, but not very conducive to social progress. The New Testament also has a number of verses saying that women should not speak in the church, and should be completely submissive. However, there are now millions of women worldwide who are active in their churches. No one says to them, "The Bible clearly states that it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

That's all I'm going to say for now. I prefer not to get very involved in these debates. It's just the same thing over and over again.


exactly why im walking out of it..just pisses me off..

just FYI the bible also says all shellfish, rabbit, pork is unclean and you shall be punished for eating it.

You cannot wear cotton according to the bible...

women should be totally submissive to their husbands, should not have careers or income unless it comes from said husband

There are so many rules in the bible that if christians followed every single one to the INTERPRETED letter, our lives would be VERY different. Times are different and a lot was lost in the translation.

John 3:16 For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life

---I think that verse pretty well sums it up. Judgements shall be left to God, NOT man..thank god

[Daniel]

So we're not all christians or some of us are of different denominations. Well, to those of us who are, do you think that Jesus would force his own beliefs on other people?

Force, no. You cannot force a belief. But teach? Certainly.

Just because something is accepted doesn't make it right (and vice versa).


The only problem I have with same sex marriage, (and I know about 50 people will jump on me for saying this), is that marriage is a RELIGIOUS thing, and in most religions homo-sexuality is not accepted. So why get married under God, if you aren't living the standards that God has set? I'm not saying everyone who gets married is religious, but marriage in itself is a religious practice.


This is my main argument. You can't just go and change the foundation of marriage. It would be like twisting it. It's like anti-marriage.

Moreover, where do you draw the line? Homosexuality? Mass marraiges (3+ ? 10? 100? all married?) Pets?



I myself never understood why its an issue with so many people. Who cares whos gay lesbian black white asian.
Life goes on. Love is about something between usually two people. Sex is about fun.
I'd like to think we are mature enough to except all these values in society. OK i love women i really do why should it bother anyone what a person likes.
I'll tell you what i think, its because people don't understand and are afraid.





Your Old Pal jacky


Might I ask what your definition of love is?

[Psycho]

Like I said, Indianjones, I'm not trying to be your judge...nor is anyone else. We're all merely stating our opinions, as are you. Do not accuse us of trying to focus your life on our beliefs. Its completely opposite of the point I was trying to bring accross. Also I find your last post offensive as calling my own personal beliefs "fire and brimstone nonsense/bs" You have absolutely no right whatsoever to be saying that. I never once said in my posts "THIS AND THAT IS RIGHT" I said "IMO"
Also, I see your point about accepting Jesus as your savior...BUT, even if you are saved, you will still be punished for your sins...its something you forgot to mention. Which, was my main point. Also the whole thing about women speaking in church (as you just said it says in the Bible) most ouviously was a sin...didn't you just say so yourself? BUT, because of society nowadays, no one follows those rules anymore...it doesn't mean those rules aren't there. It just means they're either forgotten, or people just don't care. When you were a little kid, did you mother ever tell you not to play with fire? Well, (hypothetical situation) you get older and you decide to be stupid with your teenage friends and you "play with fire" and end up causing some sort of serious accident.

The rule was, DON'T PLAY WITH FIRE. You disobeyed it, and will get punished for it either by law, or your parents...or both.

In this case, sin is fire. God said "do not sin" and we sinned. We will get judged, even if we are saved. The mother still loves the son that caught the house on fire, but it does not mean he/she won't get punished.

Take my words as personal opinion. Accept them or deny them, but I know there has to be someone who agrees with me...

[Renaul]

...I find your last post offensive as calling my own personal beliefs "fire and brimstone nonsense/bs" You have absolutely no right whatsoever to be saying that. I never once said in my posts "THIS AND THAT IS RIGHT" I said "IMO"...

I apologise for that, she was quoting me when I said:

Before you go around preaching about fire and brimstone, you should ask yourself "Is it ok if people believe different than me?"
What I ment by that was that when you adress a hostile audience you approach an arguement in a different manor than when you are say George Bush giving a speach at a rally in Texas. An example of the exact opposite kind of speach would be say, Martin Luther King Jr.


Force, no. You cannot force a belief. But teach? Certainly.

Just because something is accepted doesn't make it right (and vice versa).


First, I would like to thank you by adressing my points objectively. I like having a debate, but I realy don't like having it end in a fight.

So, on to the topic at hand. That, my friends, is exactly my point. Teach, but do not force. Which ties into my earlier arguement. I believe that what should be done is that congress should not pass any laws against homosexuality. Not because I believe it to be ok, but because I believe that God gave us free will for a reason. I believe that God gave us free will because he wanted us to decide for ourselves whether or not we will do what he wants us to, which is why time and time again he says for us to lead by example. He is telling us to teach by example.


This is my main argument. You can't just go and change the foundation of marriage. It would be like twisting it. It's like anti-marriage.

Moreover, where do you draw the line? Homosexuality? Mass marraiges (3+ ? 10? 100? all married?) Pets?

If I remember correctly, the Suprime Court found marriage to be defined as the union between man and woman. So, that is now the status quo and also where I will agree to disagree. It is accepted, but that does not make it right as was said earlier. Also, we need not fear where to draw the line. The very nature of law is to draw lines. Right now the line is drawn at same-sex marriages. If it were decided by the grand jury that say for example, an extention of rights granted by the first amendment conflicted with their earlier decision to not allow same sex marriages, then that line would be drawn. There is no domino effect. It is like saying that if a person smokes cigarettes that they will move on to marajuana then eventualy they will be using cocaine and so on.

My arguement is that if in fact the foundation of marriage is religion, then shouldn't the separation of church and state allow for same-sex marriage lisences as the government can pass no laws reguarding religion?

So here is my stance in a nutshell:

As a Christian I believe:
Homosexuality is wrong, but we should not try to force people to accept our beliefs. Rather, we should try to teach them and by teach I mean persuade. I suppose it is like, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

As an American I believe:
It is wrong to descriminate reguardless of who is right or wrong and passing laws against same-sex marriages is descrimination.

As an intellectual I believe:
If we attempt to force people to believe as we do then we will convince no one but ourselves. Passing laws preventing same sex-marriages will not prevent homosexuality, nor does not passing laws mean that a person accepts it.

That sums up my stance on same-sex marriages. Please do not believe that I am repeating myself because, I think that in any way shape or form it will prove my point. I am putting it out there simplified and all in one place so that while we are debating people don't have to sift through pages of posts to find it. My beliefs are not absolute. Perhaps there is another solution? Perhaps there is a way to adress equality with out changing the institution of marriage? Keep in mind that a lot of the people who want same-sex marriages, simply want the same rights as married couples.

[poetryliberates]

we all have different beliefs, i for one, do not believe in god, jesus christ ot anything remotely related to that. and i do not feel obliged to. i believe in love, life and myself..

[Robert]

Just to clarify, I never said homosexuals are bad people or that they are wrong in the way they feel. I know you have real feelings toward people of the same sex. Believe me, I've been there myself. I simply told you what my opinion was on same-sex marriage, and that I disagree on it. I just don't share your opinions and you should be just as accepting of that as I am of your lifestyle. Me thinking same-sex marriage is wrong doesn't mean I think you shouldn't be with the person you love. By all means, love away. Marriage has more to do with being unified under God, and if you don't believe in God anyway, why would you care to get married? Marriage in itself is saying "I want to be with you until death does us part, and I want God to be the center of our relationship." That is what marriage is about.
I like the way you present your argument, Lily. It says a lot about you. Well done.

I just wanted to add that I'm happily married but don't believe in God. Marriage to me has nothing to do with God, but with the commitment between my wife and I (or two people in general).

I appreciate that for you it has different meaning.

Cheers,
Rob

[PencilJockey]

The only problem I have with same sex marriage, (and I know about 50 people will jump on me for saying this), is that marriage is a RELIGIOUS thing, and in most religions homo-sexuality is not accepted. So why get married under God, if you aren't living the standards that God has set? I'm not saying everyone who gets married is religious, but marriage in itself is a religious practice.
The other issue I have, is why do people care so much about 'coming out', why don't they keep their personal lives to themselves? You don't see me running around saying "I LOVE HAVING SEX WITH MY HUSBAND!", and trying to make a big point about it. Sure, it's great that you're different, and maybe I'm just a prude, but nobody cares what your sexual preferences are. I just think it's a bit animalistic to focus on sex all the time.

I don't think what you've typed is worth being 'jumped on' about. Everyone has a right to their opinion...the problem comes from those that try to shove theirs on others.

I think you make some good points in regards to it being a religious event, although I myself am not religious and couldn't care less who married whom.

Unforunately it's still a harsh world in some places where a person's sexuality, if not the typical man to woman, is just not accepted. This creates some fear and trepidation among gays and lesbians so much so that it can be hard for them to come out. It's not that they're all making a big deal out of it because they are gay...I believe that the situation is just so emotional for a lot of people that it comes out like a big deal. The fact that there are people out there that do care whether or not a person is gay or straight keeps this issue thriving.

[The Freshmaker]

This is my main argument. You can't just go and change the foundation of marriage. It would be like twisting it. It's like anti-marriage.

Well, it's not like marriage is a divine ceremony given directly to man by God. Marriage is a man-made custom, and its definitions can be amended and broadened by man.


Moreover, where do you draw the line? Homosexuality? Mass marraiges (3+ ? 10? 100? all married?) Pets?

This is one of the poorest arguments against same-sex marriage. First of all, it's a slippery slope. Read up on your fallacies. Second, animals cannot consent to a sexual act or sign a marriage certificate, so that is totally unrealistic.


Might I ask what your definition of love is?

Might I ask what yours is? Love means different things to different people, but you know it when you feel it. My rule of thumb for love: if you have to ask yourself if it's love, it isn't.

[The Freshmaker]

Marriage has more to do with being unified under God, and if you don't believe in God anyway, why would you care to get married? Marriage in itself is saying "I want to be with you until death does us part, and I want God to be the center of our relationship." That is what marriage is about.

I know this is a crazy idea, but it's totally possible to do all that without the God part. Marriage is found in nearly every culture back through antiquity. It didn't start with Christianity, or even Judaism. It won't end with them, either.

[Max Vantage]

I find it quite amusing that people assume that marriage is only a Christain thing. Don't you people realise that marriage existed before Christ was born? Centuries, I do believe. It wasn't his idea, y'know!

Tut, tut! People just refuse to understand, especially when they hide behind the skirt of religion to justify their Third Reich principles of oppression.

For you people in the cheap seats (the Christian elite): Homosexuals by their very own are natural within their homosexual identity just as much as heterosexuals are within theirs. No one chooses their basic sexual identity - only nature does that. And nature, just like the behaviour of the entire universe, is not confided to basic logic all the time. It changes. It's never stagnant.
Luxury choices, on the other hand, i.e. - those who make a conscious choice to sexually experiment for the purpose of pleasure -, are not included in this argument.

'Wrong or right' - these terms simply just do not apply. Why? Because the morals you live by are not going to be the same as those not of your religion. Get that through your fucking thick skull!

The nature behind the coveting of marriage is not always a religious one. It's usually one of economics, that being that when a couple (any couple) live together they often receive adjusted tax reviews that make a considerable difference between a single person and a person who is married.
To the Christian elite here, this would mean that a single man would have to pay more tax than a married man because he only has himself to support so therefore he (technically) earns more money.

Now if two people of a homosexual nature are living together within a commited, lifelong relationship they would find it very hard to support themselves if they were under the same tax codes as single people under the assumption that they only have themselves instead of each other to support (mortgage/rent, food, bills etc, etc).
The only economic arguments left would involve unfair pay. Homosexuals getting less pay or a lower chance of employment purely because of their homosexuality would be legally entitled to sue for discrimination.
If they were paid more because of their homosexuality then blood would run down the walls of the Church before any Christians (or anyone else) would tolerate that. So the only other option is equality.
Makes sense yet?

And to anyone who even thinks of doing the idiotic thing of comparing homosexuality to perversion because it's "unnatural" to support their ignorance in vain, get this:

The dictionary describes perversion (that being of sexual in nature according to the content of the thread + comments) as: 3. to lead into deviant or perverted beliefs or behaviour; corrupt.
5. a person who practices sexual perversion.

This is not a homosexual any more than a heterosexual. This is a definition of a peadophile. To the Christian elite, this would translate as a "kiddy fiddler".

Want Maximum to help you understand the difference? Okay then.

The difference between a "homo" and a "kiddy fiddler" is one of exercised control.

As I have stated before, homosexuals are homosexual by their very nature. Peados are not, because they can't keep their behaviour under a biological control; citing abuse.

Understand yet? Comprendenoony?

"God" as a terminology is not simply confided within the Christian Faith. It is universal to all faiths spanning right back to the ancient Greeks who worshipped and told stories about multiple gods (Zeus, Mars, Aphrodite etc etc) and even before them.
That means that if you obsess over a can of soda than let that can of soda be your god ( :D ). Hell, if that's not funny then you're devoid of a sense of humour!

For members like Psycho to think otherwise only goes to show the modern day possession of the archaic mentality that once advocated the Crusades (based on the premise of closed-minded, uneducated blind stupidity!)

And to Renaul: nothing personal mate, but your comment smacks of hypocrisy. And I quote:


As a Christian I believe: yadda, yadda.
As an American I believe: yadda, yadda.
As an intellectual I believe: yadda, yadda

As a Nazi, Hitler believed in the ‘Final Solution’. To the “Nazified” German peoples this was also their belief that they never thought was wrong but morally right to keep the blood pure of “inferior” racial stock.
I’m not comparing you or your beliefs to Hitler et al. I’m trying to point out the problems of having beliefs.

As a human being I know (and couldn’t care less about beliefs) that the majority of problems caused in our society today are based on the stupidity of beliefs. These problems shouldn’t actually exist. Let’s be honest: what is the fucking problem?

Anyone else wanna be taken to school? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Robert]

Get that through your fucking thick skull!
*yawn*

[Lily]

I think people might take your argument more seriously if you learned how to get your point across without needing to swear. I understand that you are passionate about this subject, but when a person uses proper adjectives it makes them seem more intelligent, which is a big reason why politicians don't curse constantly during speeches, they want to seem mature and educated. If you actually want someone to take you up on the offer to "take them to school", perhaps you should sound like you have attended. In order to persuade someone to believe or "know" in the same way you do, the first step is not simply to insult them, that will just put them on the defensive. If you actually want to get through to someone then you first have to start with things you have in common, then you can build on that and explain why you feel the way you do. Only when those steps are taken will the people you are writing or talking to actually consider what you are saying. By posting the way you did you have not convinced anyone that you are right (other than those that already did), you have only made people not like you. I would recommend in the future, that you use a more diplomatic approach, rather than rely upon your apparently incredible wit. I am of the firm belief (oh my!!!) that people should have the right to their own opinion, without being insulted. By taking a more diplomatic and reasonable approach, I think you could probably advance your position much better, if that is your goal. If not, and your goal if just to be insulting, then you are doing great, and you can ignore this post.

[ariella]

I still stick by my own thoughts that it has nothing to do with me. Love is blind remember and we can't choose who we fall in love with.

Ok I'm not saying I agree with it 100% but I don't disagree either. I will remain nuetral on this matter.

I still don't see why people are bothered by it though!!! I mean it is a part of life like everything else and we all have to accept that.

[Ferret]

Accept the things we have a problem with?
Seriosuly if people have a probelm with homosexual marriage....why shouldnt they have a right to compalin?
If people have a probelm with-which they do, they have the right to bitch....
I dont have much ofa problem with it...but enough of Americans do, enough to have this kind of debate...it deseveres consideration.

[SeaBreeze]

Geez, this is getting heated! Maybe we should believe what we want to believe, support what we wanna support and respect others opinions without being overzealious in protecting our beliefs taht we punish others for it. I don't think Homosexuality is wrong but I respect and understand how others will agree.
So build a bridge and get over it!!!!

[SeaBreeze]

.....I hate computers

[ariella]

If you don't like it you don't have to pay any attention to it. Turn your head the other way, don't listen.

I am friends with a few guys that are homosexual and they are really great guys. They show me the respect to not do anything infront of me apart from hold hands and cuddle, but they are normal guys like every other guy in this world apart from their sexuality.

I am also friends with homosexual females and although it creeps me out and at times I get rather worried by their comments, I am nether the less still their friend.

At the end of the day they are just people and that is the way I will always see them.

[Frost]

Bi = a choice
Gay = Decision made for you

Just thought I'd throw that in..

[IndianaJoan]

Accept the things we have a problem with?
Seriosuly if people have a probelm with homosexual marriage....why shouldnt they have a right to compalin?
If people have a probelm with-which they do, they have the right to bitch....
I dont have much ofa problem with it...but enough of Americans do, enough to have this kind of debate...it deseveres consideration.

The right to complain is not in dispute

The right to impose laws against something based solely on religion..well whose rights get violated then?

[Max Vantage]

IndianaJoan is the only one who gets it.

Lily, don't be so naive.

[IndianaJoan]

IndianaJoan is the only one who gets it.

Lily, don't be so naive.

Much appreciated max :)

How are you anyway?

[Lily]

That's what I thought.

[IndianaJoan]

That's what I thought.

Whats what you thought?

Look, this subject is a hotbutton for a lot of people...I am one of those people.

Until you stand on the outside of the MORAL majority and try to live your life the way YOU want to live it without interference from other people who disagree with what you are doing, you can never possibly understand.

I have been with the same person for 3 years. She is from Sweden. She cant live here permanently with me because the US immigration laws dont allow for same sex couples to marry. If we could marry, there would be no issue...so instead..because every religious yahoo out there thinks its wrong..I am forced to spend 1300 dollars every three months just to pay for a plane ticket to fly her here so she can stay for three months and then go home..wash, rinse, repeat.

I bother no one...i hurt no one. My children love her and miss her terribly when she is gone.

I cannot move to sweden because i have children who deserve the right to see their dad even if i think hes a complete waste of a human being.

I dont interfere with that, and in much the same way, I want people to mind their own business and quit preventing something just because they are on a moral highground.

Thats my rant..i dont mean to offend anyone but this subject is VERY sensitive to me considering that the one person i want to spend the rest of my life with spends half of every year away from me and my family. So yeah, i get irritated.

[Ferret]

Just one little note; you dont have to be religous to not like homosexuality. Tons of non-church going/non christian males find gays repulsive...that is gays...
But why cant she just go through the hell of customs and applie for citzenship?
Congrads on the kids...tell them a complete stranger on the internet said hello...
Look, I have no problem with your kids having two moms or anyhting like that...

[IndianaJoan]

Just one little note; you dont have to be religous to not like homosexuality. Tons of non-church going/non christian males find gays repulsive...that is gays...
But why cant she just go through the hell of customs and applie for citzenship?
Congrads on the kids...tell them a complete stranger on the internet said hello...
Look, I have no problem with your kids having two moms or anyhting like that...


Yes but those arent the ones who are pushing to pass laws to prevent same sex partnerships...though i do see your point

You cant just apply for citizenship. It doesnt work like that. First you have to have a green card, which is hell to get unless you can manage to nail a job, or get lucky enough to win the green card lottery (which she has applied for). Trust me, we have looked into everything..unless she had a million dollars to donate to america and could guarantee she would continue to make a 6 figure salary while living here, she has no chance in hell of just "getting citizenship". I have been through the immigration laws with a fine tooth comb. :(

[Lily]

IndianaJoan, It makes me sad to know you're going through that. I really hope your partner can somehow get a green hard etc. and move here on a perminent basis. I wish there were another way for homosexual people to get the rights they need, I just don't agree with homosexual marriage. I guess when you're married you take those rights forgranted. Hope all goes well for you in the future. I was responding to someone else's comment on me being naive, earlier, and wasn't reacting to anything you had said.

[IndianaJoan]

IndianaJoan, It makes me sad to know you're going through that. I really hope your partner can somehow get a green hard etc. and move here on a perminent basis. I wish there were another way for homosexual people to get the rights they need, I just don't agree with homosexual marriage. I guess when you're married you take those rights forgranted. Hope all goes well for you in the future. I was responding to someone else's comment on me being naive, earlier, and wasn't reacting to anything you had said.

Its ok, not a problem. Thanks for clarifying that.

It's ok as always to have an opinion, some opinions by nature just make us all respond more strongly.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

[Robert]

Good luck, IndianaJoan.

Cheers,
Rob

[IndianaJoan]

Good luck, IndianaJoan.

Cheers,
Rob

LOL errrr I should know better than to wander into threads bearing this topic!

At any rate despite the differences of opinion and lifestyles, I enjoy a good debate. This particular debate just hits a little too close to home for me so next time I think I will just kick back and bite my knuckles!

[Max Vantage]

I wish there were another way for homosexual people to get the rights they need, I just don't agree with homosexual marriage.

Buh?


I guess when you're married you take those rights forgranted.

Buh?



I was responding to someone else's comment on me being naive, earlier, and wasn't reacting to anything you had said.

Oh okay then, seeing as it's near Christmas and I'm in a festive mood I'll bite.

I called you naive because instead of you disputing any of the information I've given that most on here take for granted you would rather critique my post as if it was a piece of short fiction (yes, it was quite a long post, but, alas, not a story :D ), and then criticise me for using a vulgar display of language.

I don't mind using them. I don't care who I offend. They're just words not actions. When making a response to a thread I don't cherry pick adjectives as you have suggested as my responses are just a stream of conscious thoughts.
Feeling less naive yet? :D

[Lily]

Extremely.

Well kids, it's been fun, I need to go catch a plane since I haven't seen my family in a year.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, or Happy Festivus.