whats the difference?

[shanemitchell1]

Can someone explain to me the difference between a comma and a semicolon? I will give an example sentence, tell me if it is correct.

A lone figure crouched at the edge of cliff, his red eyes glowing in the black of night.

Should a semicolon be replaced between "cliff and his"? This is just an example and please explain what the differences are.

[LeoMars]

It should be a comma. A semicolon is used to separate two complete sentences that are related to each other. A comma is used to separate a complete sentence from a sentence fragment ("his red eyes glowing in the black of night", in your case).

Hereby below is the correct use of the semicolon:

A lone figure stared down from the edge of cliff; his red eyes were glowing in the black of night.

[Neha]

Yeah, a comma's like a stone, you just step over it. A semi colon's like a small block of stones, you jump over it, and a full stop is a wall of stones, you go around it. So essentially, you break flow at a comma, take a breath at a semicolon and stop at the fullstop. e.g:

He was a naughty boy, so he got punished for it.
He was naughty; he got punished for it

[architectus]

Treat a semicolon like you would a period, but use it between two very related sentences, and I would recommend to only use it between two short related sentences.

Also, there needs to be an a or the before cliff.

[Cogito]

Difference?

The comma is the most misused punctuation symbol. It is often omitted where it is required and inserted where it does not belong.

The semicolon is the most overused punctuation symbol, rivalled only by the exclamation mark.

[mammamaia]

ditto that, cog!

[marina]

Regarding semicolons, I've been told I overuse them. How do you know when to use it and when to just have 2 separate sentences instead? Is it just a judgement call?

[architectus]

Cog, that is so true about the exclamation mark. In my YA novel Bending Nature (70,000 words) I used it 37 times. I used 12 semicolons.

In Agija of Agukas (80k) I only used 5 exclamation marks. I used 19 semicolons.

Once I go through the last revision of Bending Nature, the 37 exclamation marks will be reduced.

Marina: Here is how I personally use them. When I have clauses with comas in them, but they are part of a list. When I use a large ugly conjunction like although, or however to connect two sentences, which I rarely use. And to connect two very related short sentences, and then only if I think it helps the paragraph.

He even sensed something in her; something he liked.

[LeoMars]

Regarding semicolons, I've been told I overuse them. How do you know when to use it and when to just have 2 separate sentences instead? Is it just a judgement call?

You can actually do away with the semicolon and replace it with the period or a comma and a conjunction. Sometimes using a semicolon is about judgement call but you basically use a semicolon when the second sentence complete the meaning of the first's (note a colon can do that as well). Separating two complete sentences by a period, semicolon or colon will cause subtle differences in meaning.

I'm very anti-semicolon by the way. :D

[mammamaia]

i'm also totally anti-; for fiction... anywhere in fiction that you might use one of the pesky things, a comma, period, em dash, or 'and' will work much better and won't leave the reader wondering what to make of it, or annoyed at it being there in the first place...

[architectus]

Why would a reader be annoyed at a well placed semicolon?

The amount of readers that might be annoyed by seeing a semicolon, I don't think is anything to worry about. There might be just as many readers that might be annoyed by never seeing one, hehe.

[Cogito]

I must disagree, I have often been annoyed with pieces of writing laden with gratuitous semicolons. But I have never heard heard anyone spontaneously complain, "This writing needs more semicolons."

[architectus]

Cog, yes but there is a difference between many and a few.

I don't think many readers would be annoyed with a few well placed semicolons. I also don't think those few readers that might be, are wroth never using a semicolon in a novel.

From what I can tell, Maia is saying to never use semicolons because why take the chance in aggravating readers. I say, who cares if the very few readers out there would be annoyed by a few well placed semicolons. I'm sure those types would be aggravated by something else if not for the few semicolons.

I doubt anyone of them stop reading an author because that author used semicolons in his/her novel. I wonder if a well received novel even exist that uses none.

[Cheeno]

That one does, in my opinion.

[mammamaia]

yes, one is definitely called for before 'his'... and not because it's a 'pause' but because what follows is an independent [dependent?] clause... and clauses need to be set off by commas...

[LeoMars]

This sentence doesn't need a comma. IMHO, it's missing "the" before the cliff.

"A lone figure crouched at the edge of the cliff his red eyes glowing in the black of night."

Not all pauses require a comma.

Can only be comma before "his red eyes glowing in the black of night", as it is additional information you can very well do without.

[Cheeno]

As do I, that you do.:)

[Piestein]

I personally give a lot of emphasis on spelling and punctuation, especially as a reader. It might be caused by the country where I live (You would be amazed how many people make dramatic mistakes with spelling and punctuation here), so feel free to treat this opinion as 'biased'.

And yes, a comma is definitely needed there, at least imo (again I could be wrong, especially knowing I'm not even a native english speaker).

[mammamaia]

the lack of, or un-called for use of a comma can completely change the meaning of a sentence, so it's not as insignificant a subject as you want it to be, tot... agents and editors will notice if a writer can't get 'em straight and it can affect your work being accepted, or rejected...

[lynneandlynn]

The easiest way to determine if you should use a comma or semi-colon is to separate the two phrases you have into sentences. If they work without one another, use a semi-colon. If they don't, use a comma.

Someone did make a good point, though- semicolons are overused. It's just as easy to use a conjunction and a comma in place of a semicolon and sometimes the flow is better. I try to only use semicolons when I'm purposely trying to jar the writing, to 'chunk it up' in order to get something across that makes more sense with forced pauses than it does with a flowing sentence.

Most of the time, semi-colons are best used in poetry for that purpose rather than fiction, because fiction should read smoothly whereas in some poems you want to jar the reader from one line to another (not often, but you get my drift).


~Lynn

[mammamaia]

Most of the time, semi-colons are best used in poetry for that purpose

sez who?... as a full time serious poet and mentor of many aspiring poets, i did a major double take over that statement, which i have never seen made by any authority on what is the most refined of the writing arts... in poetry, as in fiction, i find their use to be completely out of place and the alternatives i listed above to be much more appropriate and effective...

the only place i see a semicolon [it's not hyphenated] needed or working well is in non-fiction, especially that which is technical or scholastic-aimed... so, i'd be interested in knowing who claims it should be used in poetry...

[lynneandlynn]

Maybe I should clarify--semi-colons are best used in poetry as compared to their use in fiction. They're still entirely overused in both types of writing. I just think poetry lends itself better to the use of semi-colons than fiction does. That might just be a personal opinion. And, no offense, to me it is misleading to say that anyone is an "authority" on writing because writing is a form of art. If you aren't able to express yourself the way you want to because you're constrained by a set of guidelines that are so strict as to never be able to break out of them--well, that isn't art in my mind. Someone can be a professional writer and make money writing, but I don't think there's a single person in this world who will ever be qualified enough to claim themselves as an "authority" on an art-form. That's just my personal opinion. I think too many writers get caught up in the technicalities of writing that they forget that at it's very basic level, writing is an expression of self. And no one but you is an authority on your own person. Just my thoughts.

[architectus]

I don't understand the aversion to semicolons. They can produce a feeling that a period, comma, and em-dash cannot.

Check out The Aim Was Song by Robert Frost. He uses one semicolon, one colon, and four em-dashes in that poem.

[lynneandlynn]

I agree. I think a semi-colon creates a longer pause than an em-dash in a reader's mind (or at least it does in mine!).

[SufferMeElmo]

With hallucinations for punctuation
And chaos for capitalization
Me never meets a comma
Me couldn't do withouttah

[lynneandlynn]

That's an amusing little rhyme considering the usage of a comma :p

[mammamaia]

to me it is misleading to say that anyone is an "authority" on writing because writing is a form of art.

if that were true, there would be no pulitzer, pen, nobel oscar, et al. prizes for the written arts, would there?... nor any editors at publishing houses, magazines and literary journals... and anything anyone writes at any level of competence [or its opposite] would be considered equal, from toilet stall scribblings to classics such as the iliad and shakespeare's best...

[lynneandlynn]

I still don't consider those places authorities on the written word. I consider them authorities on what people like to read. Just a thought.

[Atari]

Yeah, a comma's like a stone, you just step over it. A semi colon's like a small block of stones, you jump over it, and a full stop is a wall of stones, you go around it. So essentially, you break flow at a comma, take a breath at a semicolon and stop at the fullstop. e.g:

He was a naughty boy, so he got punished for it.
He was naughty; he got punished for it


Hmm, interesting analogy, though it seems a little. . . non sequitur.

I prefer the analogy comparing length of pauses and strength of the mark.

A comma is a slight pause, wherein you might take a breath, or just for the lilt of your words. It's a weak mark.

Semicolon is just a bit weaker than a period, making itself readily known, but not completely stopping a sentence.

[Sound of Silence]

Yeah, a comma's like a stone, you just step over it. A semi colon's like a small block of stones, you jump over it, and a full stop is a wall of stones, you go around it. So essentially, you break flow at a comma, take a breath at a semicolon and stop at the fullstop. e.g:


Love that discription:)

[Forgetmenot77]

Then what is the subtle difference between a colon and semi-colon??? Just wondering because I would like to learn to use them so I can vary my sentences as I write.

[mammamaia]

from http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/s.html :


Colon.
A colon marks a pause for explanation, expansion, enumeration, or elaboration. Use a colon to introduce a list: thing one, thing two, and thing three. Use it to pause and explain: this sentence makes the point. Use it to give an example: this, for instance.

There are other uses: the entry on Citation includes some tips on colons in bibliographies. Americans use it after the salutation in a formal letter: "Dear Sir:" (the British use a comma, which we Americans restrict to less formal letters). It also introduces a block quotation or a list of bullet points.

See also Semicolon (don't confuse them!) and the end of Capitalization. [Entry added 3 November 2000.]

Semicolon.
Semicolons probably produce more confusion and misery than all the other punctuation marks combined. But they're really not very difficult to master.

The semicolon has only two common uses. The first is to separate the items in a list, often after a colon, especially when the listed items contain commas: "The following books will be covered on the midterm: the Odyssey, through book 12; Ovid's Metamorphoses, except for the passages on last week's quiz; and the selections from Chaucer." The semicolon makes it clear that there are three items, whereas using commas to separate them could produce confusion.

The other legitimate use of a semicolon is to separate two independent clauses in one sentence: "Shakespeare's comedies seem natural; his tragedies seem forced." Here's how to tell whether this one is appropriate: if you can use a period and begin a new sentence, you can use a semicolon. In other words, this kind of semicolon can always be replaced by a period and a capital letter. In the example, "Shakespeare's comedies seem natural. His tragedies seem forced" is correct, so a semicolon can be used. (If you used a comma here — "Shakespeare's comedies seem natural, his tragedies seem forced" — you'd be committing the sin of comma splice.)

It's risky to use semicolons anywhere else. There's no need for them after, for instance, "Dear Sir" in a letter (where a comma or a colon is preferred). Don't use them before a relative pronoun ("She sold more than 400 CDs; which was better than she hoped") — it should be a comma, since the bit after the semicolon can't stand on its own. [Entry revised 10 December 2006.]

and from http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_overvw.html :


Semicolon ;
In addition to using a semicolon to join related independent clauses in compound sentences, you can use a semicolon to separate items in a series if the elements of the series already include commas.

Members of the band include Harold Rostein, clarinetist; Tony Aluppo, tuba player; and Lee Jefferson, trumpeter.

Colon :
Use a colon . . .

in the following situations:
for example:

after a complete statement in order to introduce one or more directly related ideas, such as a series of directions, a list, or a quotation or other comment illustrating or explaining the statement.
The daily newspaper contains four sections: news, sports, entertainment, and classified ads.

The strategies of corporatist industrial unionism have proven ineffective: compromises and concessions have left labor in a weakened position in the new "flexible" economy.

in a business letter greeting.
Dear Ms. Winstead:

between the hour and minutes in time notation.
5:30 p.m.

between chapter and verse in biblical references.
Genesis 1:18

[LeoMars]

I don't understand the aversion to semicolons. They can produce a feeling that a period, comma, and em-dash cannot.

Check out The Aim Was Song by Robert Frost. He uses one semicolon, one colon, and four em-dashes in that poem.

Maybe because they are transvestite hermaphrodites. Google the two last words and you'll find the full quote and know who said that. Of course there's also Noah Lukeman who is a strong defender of the semicolon and his "cement and marble" analogy. Both sides have good arguments, though.

Punctuation is actually quite secondary when it comes to fiction writing (in it's submitted form). You can make a punctuation error at every turn but if the writing is still entrenching, many a publisher will overlook the mistakes and leave it to the editor to weed out the mistakes. Key word here is entrenching and I don't condone gratuitous grammar mistakes.

[LeoMars]

Then what is the subtle difference between a colon and semi-colon??? Just wondering because I would like to learn to use them so I can vary my sentences as I write.

Read mamma's general usage of the colon and semicolon first, then the examples below carefully.

Since the use of the colon and the semicolon, although simple in principle, presents so many difficulties to uncertain punctuators, it will be helpful to contrast them here. Consider first the following two sentences:

Lisa is upset. Gus is having a nervous breakdown.

The use of two separate sentences suggests that there is no particular connection between these two facts: they just happen to be true at the same time. No particular inference can be drawn, except perhaps that things are generally bad. Now see what happens when a semicolon is used:

Lisa is upset; Gus is having a nervous breakdown.

The semicolon now suggests that the two statements are related in some way. The likeliest inference is that the cause of Lisa's annoyance and the cause of Gus's nervous breakdown are the same. Perhaps, for example, both are being disturbed by building noise next door. (Remember, a semicolon connects two sentences which are related.) Now try it with a colon:

Lisa is upset: Gus is having a nervous breakdown.

This time the colon shows explicitly that Gus's nervous breakdown is the reason for Lisa's distress: Lisa is upset because Gus is having a nervous breakdown. (Remember, a colon introduces an explanation or elaboration of what has come before.)

Consider another example:

I have the answer. Mike's solution doesn't work.

Here we have two independent statements: my answer and Mike's solution may possibly have been directed at the same problem, but nothing implies this, and equally they may have been directed at two entirely distinct problems. Now, with a semicolon:

I have the answer; Mike's solution doesn't work.

The semicolon shows that the two statements are related, and strongly implies that Mike and I were working on the same problem. Finally, with a colon:

I have the answer: Mike's solution doesn't work.

This time the use of the colon indicates that the failure of Mike's solution is exactly the answer which I have obtained: that is, what I have discovered is that Mike's solution doesn't work.

If you understand these examples, you should be well on your way to using colons and semicolons correctly.

Summary of colons and semicolons:

€ Use a colon to separate a general statement from following specifics.
€ Use a semicolon to connect two complete sentences not joined by and, or, but, yet or while.

reference: http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node18.html

[mammamaia]

but if the writing is still entrenching, many a publisher will overlook the mistakes and leave it to the editor to weed out the mistakes. Key word here is entrenching and I don't condone gratuitous grammar mistakes

i'm puzzled... 'entrenching' means digging a ditch [as done in wwi], or encroaching/infringing, so did you mean 'entrancing'?

[LeoMars]

i'm puzzled... 'entrenching' means digging a ditch [as done in wwi], or encroaching/infringing, so did you mean 'entrancing'?

I must have been on the moon and I made the mistakes twice. Mind you, happens to me all the times and I know the difference very well. I guess in my memory, those two words are in very close proximity. A good conjecture considering I also confuse "death" and "depth" when I don't give my full attention to my writing.

[architectus]

Read mamma's general usage of the colon and semicolon first, then the examples below carefully.

Since the use of the colon and the semicolon, although simple in principle, presents so many difficulties to uncertain punctuators, it will be helpful to contrast them here. Consider first the following two sentences:

Lisa is upset. Gus is having a nervous breakdown.

The use of two separate sentences suggests that there is no particular connection between these two facts: they just happen to be true at the same time. No particular inference can be drawn, except perhaps that things are generally bad. Now see what happens when a semicolon is used:

Lisa is upset; Gus is having a nervous breakdown.

The semicolon now suggests that the two statements are related in some way. The likeliest inference is that the cause of Lisa's annoyance and the cause of Gus's nervous breakdown are the same. Perhaps, for example, both are being disturbed by building noise next door. (Remember, a semicolon connects two sentences which are related.) Now try it with a colon:

Lisa is upset: Gus is having a nervous breakdown.

This time the colon shows explicitly that Gus's nervous breakdown is the reason for Lisa's distress: Lisa is upset because Gus is having a nervous breakdown. (Remember, a colon introduces an explanation or elaboration of what has come before.)

Consider another example:

I have the answer. Mike's solution doesn't work.

Here we have two independent statements: my answer and Mike's solution may possibly have been directed at the same problem, but nothing implies this, and equally they may have been directed at two entirely distinct problems. Now, with a semicolon:

I have the answer; Mike's solution doesn't work.

The semicolon shows that the two statements are related, and strongly implies that Mike and I were working on the same problem. Finally, with a colon:

I have the answer: Mike's solution doesn't work.

This time the use of the colon indicates that the failure of Mike's solution is exactly the answer which I have obtained: that is, what I have discovered is that Mike's solution doesn't work.

If you understand these examples, you should be well on your way to using colons and semicolons correctly.

Summary of colons and semicolons:

€ Use a colon to separate a general statement from following specifics.
€ Use a semicolon to connect two complete sentences not joined by and, or, but, yet or while.

reference: http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node18.html


regardless of your word usage, great argument. I tip my hat, if I were wearing one.

[lynneandlynn]

i'm puzzled... 'entrenching' means digging a ditch [as done in wwi], or encroaching/infringing, so did you mean 'entrancing'?

Just out of curiosity...I find that a lot of the times you focus more on what grammatical and technical errors are being made rather than the actual meaning of what is being said. With that being said, I was wondering why you never voiced your opinion on the post in which I expressed the view that writing is an expression of self and instead focused on who is and isn't an authority on writing.

[mammamaia]

i respond to what catches my eye, lynne... and i don't always have the time or the inclination to spend on lengthier feedback re the entire post, as some have... when i have something to say about it that i feel is worth saying, then i do...

[Ariwyn]

I just made a post about this on my new website, (un)Enlightened English. Check out the guide here (http://www.unenlightenedenglish.com/?p=81#content). Thanks! :-D

[vanhunks]

Isn't it possible that a semicolon substitues for a conjunction?

He never pitched for practice; he was mugged at the station.
He never pitched for practice because he was mugged at the station.

He was mugged at the station; he never pitched for practice
He was mugged at the station, therefore he never pitched for practice.

Just my two cents worth.

vanhunks

[Cogito]

They both join a related pair of complete sentences, so in a sense you are correct. However, each conjunction carries meaning of its own, whereas the semicolon leaves te meaning unspecified.

More often, where a semicolon could be used, a period is a better choice. If a connection between a pair of sentences is what you mean to convey, a conjuction is usually superior. Failing that, the sentences should remain separated, delimited by a full stop. Excessive use of semicolons usually represents an inability to decide between joining sentences with a conjunction or separating them with a full stop.

Be decisive. Just say no to semicolons.

[architectus]

vanhunks, I personally wouldn't use a semicolon in those sentences. Because works better in that case.

When I use a semicolon to connect two sentences it is because a full stop doesn't carry the same feeling and the weak generic conjunction and doesn't add anything, and I already have a compound sentence in the paragraph using the conjunction and.

Here is an example where I used it.

She wasn’t just saving up for rent; she was also saving up for tuition.

Using and to connect these two sentences doesn't add anything. The word but changes the meaning. A period places a full stop between two ideas that I don't want a full stop between. I already have a compound sentence close to this one and didn't want another of the same type.

It is the only semicolon I used in chapter 1, which is 6,500 words long.

[lynneandlynn]

Architectus, not to nitpick...but you could change that and get rid of the semicolon. "Not only was she saving for rent, but also for tuition." That simple :p

However, the way you have it written is a good example of when a semicolon may become necessary. Just never forget most sentences can be reworded so that the semicolon is completely unnecessary.

~Lynn

[Phantasmal Reality]

My personal opinion: don't use semicolons if you can get away with something else. I've experimented with them in some of my current writing, and I don't think they've added anything at all. I've actually gone back and cut them all out, and I've found that those sentences sound better now. XD

Anyway, this web page (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_overvw.html) explains when to use semicolons and other "rare" puncuations, and this one (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_commacomp.html) explains commas vs. semicolons. I hope they help. :)