Now this is hard. I know that is used to be the case that the apostrophe was used in the place of an omission of other letters, i.e. it is

However it is also used in possession, or is it? Nowadays we have ceased using one of these, I presume it is (?) the former case here. Apostrophe is still used for possession as far as I know.

Is it now ungrammatical to use apostrophe for the omission of letters as once it wasn't? e.g. It's going to take a long time.

Or do I have the wrong end of the stick completely?

Its = possessive.
It's = it is.

'Its' is one of the exceptions when it comes to possessives and apostrophes. Only use an apostrophe when using the contraction for 'it is'.

Cheers,
Rob

Allow me to clarify.

Its (no apostrophe) = possessive
It's (apostrophe) = contraction.

That's weird. (Is that apostrophe correct? Now I'm confused, although I know that one is right!)

I know an apostrophe is used to refer to that which is absent, Prospero's famously apostrophic speech in The Tempest for example, and is also used to indicate possession in certain cases - Forum's Thread e.g.

So, why do we now not use the apostrophe to indicate possession in the above case? I'm fairly sure when that when I were younger, this was the case.

Just to throw in another contraction...

who's = who is

Anyway, here is an online lesson/quiz that includes the it's vs. its issue and a few others.

The "lesson" contains information and examples, and the quiz is online where you check to see if you can apply it.

Basic Word Usage Lesson 1 (http://www.authorsbydesign.com/quiz001.php)

If you're interested, I wrote a second lesson on word usage. It's a little more challenging, I think.

Basic Word Usage Lesson 2 (http://www.authorsbydesign.com/quiz003.php)

I did the lesson design and information, I didn't do the programming of the quizzes. Polar of Authors by Design did that fancy work.

Terry

Thanks, I took the quizzes, full marks I thank you.
I now understand when each is used, but I still don't know why an apostrophe often denotes possession, but not in the case of 'it'.

I now understand when each is used, but I still don't know why an apostrophe often denotes possession, but not in the case of 'it'.

How would one then indicate or show the contraction of it is?

Guess contractions carry more weight as opposed to possessives, and get first dibbs on the apostrophe. ;)

Glad you found the lessons and quizzes useful!

Terry

The apostophe is only used for possession when the saxon genitive (the grammatical name given to 's) is required, and saxon genitives are not needed for pronouns--in this case, the determinative possessive pronouns.

Determinative possessive pronouns: my, your, his, her, its, our, their.

As you can tell, none of these pronouns require apostrophes, yet they indicate possession.

Educated in 1950s / 60s England, at a Grammar School, we were very definitly taught that the possessive form also had an apostrophe. One of my crowning achievements was to be called up to see the head of the English dept at Uni, along with half a dozen others, because the staff were so impressed to find people who understood and used correct grammar. They wanted to know where we had been taught.

I have noticed in the last ten years certainly, that things have changed and it is no longer used for the possessive form.

Unfortunately, my grammar skills are very rusty, another reason for me joining this forum!

Being classically educated I also (although not quite as long ago!) remember using and being instructed to use it's possesive, but that seems to have been faded out, but thanks to the guys above I think I at least now its ;) current correct use!

When was it faded out or was it never, were we always taught wrong, Torpeh this is directed at you, you seem to be very knowledgable of these matters?

at 68, i'm sure i'm older than all of you and had NEVER been taught to use 'it's' for a possessive!... just as 'hers' and 'yours' and 'theirs' takes no apostrophe, neither does 'its'... or, do you also claim they used to have them, too?...

Educated in 1950s / 60s England, at a Grammar School, we were very definitly taught that the possessive form also had an apostrophe.

I'm with you all the way Mammamaia... you can't always trust what you learned at school.

I remember my teacher saying that to make any adjective opposite, all you have to do is add "un". That made my dad pretty mad when he found out but I always got top marks!

One that always gets me (and I'm sure is not gramatically correct, but it's used so much it probably soon will be):

There is a dog over there.
There are ten dogs over there.
There's a dog over there.
There's ten dogs over there.

"There are" is somehow contracted to "there's".

And your quizzes were great, I really need to work out my use of effect and affect... it's one of the only ones that continues to confuse me.

Je33ie,

Glad you found the quizzes useful. There are a few others there, on characterization, for example, that might be interesting and useful as well.

Indeed, affect and effect can be pretty tricky.

Terry

could've been, 'there're ten dogs'!...

at 68, i'm sure i'm older than all of you and had NEVER been taught to use 'it's' for a possessive!... just as 'hers' and 'yours' and 'theirs' takes no apostrophe, neither does 'its'... or, do you also claim they used to have them, too?...
It's possible (though I don't know) that this is a question of cultures. I learned grammar both in England (where I was born) and the US (where I was raised). And I definitely remember being taught the possessive "it's." Now whether that was in England or stateside, I can't remember.

But it would certainly not be the only variance in possessive use between the two cultures. e.g., Ross's papers (British version) versus Ross' papers (American version)

In either event, here in the States, the proper form for a possessive is "its."


Stuart

how could one tell what's meant, if both the possessive and the contraction 'it's' are apostrophed?...

how could one tell what's meant, if both the possessive and the contraction 'it's' are apostrophed?...

Context. Same way we determine the meaning of homonyms in spoken English.

When you are substituting someone for it you do not use an apostrophe. However if you do use their name, or what they are then you do.

eg.
The cat's tail was pink.
Its tail was pink
Fluffy's tail was pink.

Edit: Oh, and only when your talking about a specific thing, otherwise no apostrophe.

eg.
A cats tail was pink

Edit: Oh, and only when your talking about a specific thing, otherwise no apostrophe.

eg.
A cats tail was pink

sorry, but that's incorrect... any noun ['specific thing' or in general] still needs an apostrophe to make it a possessive... without one, it's only a plural and that sentence makes no sense... besides which, 'a' makes little sense, should be 'one' if referring to one being pink, as opposed to others being another color...

and 'your' is the possessive of 'you'... not the contraction of 'you are' which needs not only an apostrophe, but also an 'e' at the end... ;-)

Its - denoting a possession. is a special case and always has been as far as I am aware. All others should have an apostrophe

Not true. All of the personal possessive pronouns are written with no apostrophes.

certainly true of his, hers, theirs... but how about "one's"?... as in, "one's own" vs "ones own"?

and i think the previous poster was only referring to 'all other' uses of 'it's' and not all other personal pronouns... but i could be wrong...

Good point, mamma. Most sources don't even list "one" among the personal pronouns, but it is indeed a personal pronoun in the context you mentioned.

If every rule has an exception, this is it. The possessive of the personal pronoun "one" is "one's". "One" is irregular in that regard.

I stand corrected.

Thanks.

Not true. All of the personal possessive pronouns are written with no apostrophes.

oh shush! :p

that's a real stickler, cog, so even i wasn't always sure if it should take a ' or not... good ol' confusing english!

" Its common habitat"

It's and its are two different words, not to be confused with

Good Point

I think the book Eats Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss is a good guide to using apostrophes and clears out some other punctuation confusions as well. It is an interesting book.

it's a fun read for some, but definitely shouldn't be used as a serious punctuation guide, imo...

Someone mentioned schooling both in England and in the US. Regardless of where you went to school, the correct form for the possessive is "its."

I have a hard time swallowing that English teachers would mess up this rule. These people have spent at least four years of their lives studying the language and teaching methodology. Surely this issue would be addressed in one or more of those classes. Students in today's schools, however, do miss this point - "its" vs. "it's" - and I can easily believe that someone would - albeit erroneously - believe that he or she were taught "it's" for the possessive. Why else would students make that mistake? Would they purposely make errors? I doubt it. They do, however, believe they are right when they write "it's" for "its," but that doesn't mean their teachers taught them that way.

That'll be me that mentioned that dwspig2. I concede that I may never have been taught incorrectly but I remain adamant that I was not taught the correct form, nor had errors corrected until about the age of 17 or so, which makes the errors made seem natural.

Though I am glad to report I have this mastered now, save for when I type too quickly of course.

From what I've seen of school assignments (in the USA), English teachers are struggling just to get the students to submit intelligible papers, with complete sentences and words that the reader can guess what the intended word is. Often, assigned work isn't turned in at all. The papers that are submitted are so laden with more egregious errors that issues of possessive pronouns are but a few snowflakes in a blizzard.

That may sound harsh. I don't believe it is inaccurate though.

i've always been told that it was 'its' for the possessive (sp?) and it doesn't take an apostrophe, just like 'his' and 'hers don't take apostrophes. (But i think you're right, 'one' does become 'one's'!) But our class never have this problem, as apostrophes used for contraction are strictly forbidden (except for 'o'clock', because it just take far too long to write out '7 of the clock'!) !

I am an English teacher in the USA (11th and 12th grade). Some of my students still struggle with the it's vs. its, your vs. you're, affect vs. effect, whose vs. who's and so on.

I reteach it--more than once. Still doesn't always stick. I have my theories why, but that is for another string.

My daughter, in elementary school, had that as one of her lessons this year. It is being taught. Whether it's being remembered is another issue.

Terry

But our class never have this problem, as apostrophes used for contraction are strictly forbiddenThis sounds odd to me. Do they expect everyone to speak and write like Data of Star Trek: The Next Generation the rest of their lives?

If the students don't practice the correct use of the apostophe in contractions, how can they be expected to get them right later?

In formal written work that follows MLA guidelines, which many high schools require, contractions are a no-no. The same goes for using "you" instead of "one."

I personally like MLA style, but I also know how to correctly use contractions, so I'm not in danger of misusing them for lack of practice.

the MLA is not meant for creative writing, only scholarly/research/technical works... so, to use or refer it as a guide for creative mediums is a big mistake, imo... same goes for the CMS, which is aimed at journalism...

But if we're talking about schooling, most written work that's done there is formal and is not creative. As far as creative writing is concerned, I was in a "short stories" club, and there the adviser - an English teacher - encouraged us to forgo formality and use more colloquial constructions. Alas, short stories club was not required for all, so not every student was encouraged to write without contractions.