In Virginia.

There was actually two separate incident.

One was in the south, at 7 in the morning. Then around 9 - 10 am , another one flared up in the northern part, with over 30 dead.

Two madman--only teenager--gunning down teenagers. Seriously, as a teenger, this is a serious problem. Why we killing our own kind? Why are teenagers killing teenagers? You tell me...

Yea, it's usually whites going on a shooting spree at school. Why is that?

I'll be surprised if it was a black, mexican, or Asian.

It was one shooter, Asian (eye witness account, could change), possibly looking for his girlfriend.

The way the school and police reacted was a fiasco. After the first shooting shortly after seven, they locked the school down.
Two hours later, without having a suspect in custody, they reopened the school and sent people to their classes.
Then the second shooting occurred all the way across campus.
If they had kept the school locked down until they had the shooter, at least half the victims would still be alive and healthy.

As of yet they haven't released any details about the weapon(s) used, so we don't know if the guns were illegal, legal, restricted. So no one can say if gun laws would have helped or not.

There was a University shooting in Montreal a few months ago.
Canada has some pretty strict gun laws. You have to go through a criminal records check, get registered, waiting period, and assault rifles are illegal.
The shooter went through all of it. Several warning signs were ignored, and he got a semi-automatic rifle.
20 people injured, one dead.
Gun laws help, but they are far from perfect.

This actually isn't the worst school massacre in US history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe

And heres a news blog that is posting and linking to the most recent info available. http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/04/shooting_rampage_at_virginia_t.php

Well I can't be suprised that this once again happens in America

George Bush says people possess the right to have a gun, but the law still applies.

Seriously..what is so hard to comprehend.. if guns weren't on sale to begin with you would hardly need to protect yourself with a gun

Where I live, we are not allowed to possess a firearm and have no need to either.

I think there should be a ban on guns, so it would be very hard to get your hands on one

Toddlers can get their hands on guns so easily in the U.S and while everyones going on about irresponsibility, some people are dumbasses, excuse my language and a good soloution is jsut to ban them altogether

People living in fear isn't the way to go
If you possess a firearm, you're living in fear, why else would you want to hold a gun in your house? To show it to your neighbours?
Gimme a break

Ban guns and then after we do that look at other areas.
Sure, some lunatic will always manage to get his hand on a gun whether its legal or illegal, but by making it illegal there is a lesser risk
And for the situation that happened today, could it have been dealt with in a better fashion? Yes. I don't get why people can't act on signs and do something when it's innocent peoples lives on the line.

I really don't know.

Wow, that's an asinine statement.

How so?

It's true, people are dumbasses, if this was the latter then why are guns able to get their hands on guns? I'm talking about small kids, not the ones who are able to walk in and buy one.

Because the parents/guardians whatever, are careless

And a ban on guns seems out of proportion?

I don't know about you, but I see no need for guns and they are a hindrance.

I think police should be the only one armed, even then, firing should be done only when neccesary

Surely things like this make you realise how dangerous guns are?

Whereas with another weapon i.e knife, of course we're not going to ban knives just because they can kill, bu realistically, the bloodshed will be far less than a gun, a madman could have shot dozens before being taken down

I know of people who leave their homes open at night and pretty much all the time

They don't feel threatened and why should they. Fear is a bad thing, guns shouldn't be availble to the public, that's my opinion on the subject.

Whispwillow, just out of curiousity which country do you live in?

Most guns used in crime are illegal. This means they are obtained by illegal means. In most cases through gangs that buy them from weapons dealers, often from across the border. Only approximately 5 -10% of guns used in crime are stolen.
Of guns that are legally owned and used in crime, most of these are crimes of passion, involving only one to two people. And in these cases a knife will be just as effective.
So how many people will be protected by banning all guns?

Britain has banned most firearms. And if I recall, the only area guns can be kept is in gun clubs, away from the home.
The violent crime rate in Britain is climbing steadily. The people and police don't have guns, but the criminals still do.
The violent crime rate in Europe has passed Canada, and Canada's gun laws aren't as strict as Europes'.
Switzerland and Israel both have laws making gun ownership mandatory for the militia. They have less violent crime then Britain, France, and Germany.

Japan is the only country that bans guns, that has a lower violent crime rate then Switzerland. But its suicide rate is enormous. Part of the reason is if a person kills their family and then commits suicide, everyone is considered to have committed suicide. So what would be considered a crime of passion anywhere else, isn't listed as such. Thus their violent crime rate is kept artificially low.

Getting back to the US, the States that allow concealed weapons have lower crime rates, than States that do not allow concealed weapons. This may be a fear issue. But I'd rather have criminals afraid than ordinary citizens.
We live in an imperfect world, and all the hugging in the world won't fix it.

Now I agree that people should store their guns safely. Even before the government made it mandatory, my parents kept their guns away from my brother and I. And the bullets were never kept with the guns.
Also in Israel, and Switzerland gun safety training is given in the military, and in Canada gun owners must take safety courses. So most people who own guns know how to use and store them safely.

So rather than banning all guns, why not make it mandatory to have safety courses? That way the 'dumb asses' won't accidentally kill each other?

ok, i just got back from the news, and let me confirm everything. There are 33 dead, including the lone gunman, who took his own life. There are 29 wounded thoughout four hospitals, and this is the worst school/college shooting in U.S history.

It was a massacre.

Whispwillow, just out of curiousity which country do you live in?

Most guns used in crime are illegal. This means they are obtained by illegal means. In most cases through gangs that buy them from weapons dealers, often from across the border. Only approximately 5 -10% of guns used in crime are stolen.
Of guns that are legally owned and used in crime, most of these are crimes of passion, involving only one to two people. And in these cases a knife will be just as effective.
So how many people will be protected by banning all guns?

Britain has banned most firearms. And if I recall, the only area guns can be kept is in gun clubs, away from the home.
The violent crime rate in Britain is climbing steadily. The people and police don't have guns, but the criminals still do.
The violent crime rate in Europe has passed Canada, and Canada's gun laws aren't as strict as Europes'.
Switzerland and Israel both have laws making gun ownership mandatory for the militia. They have less violent crime then Britain, France, and Germany.

Japan is the only country that bans guns, that has a lower violent crime rate then Switzerland. But its suicide rate is enormous. Part of the reason is if a person kills their family and then commits suicide, everyone is considered to have committed suicide. So what would be considered a crime of passion anywhere else, isn't listed as such. Thus their violent crime rate is kept artificially low.

Getting back to the US, the States that allow concealed weapons have lower crime rates, than States that do not allow concealed weapons. This may be a fear issue. But I'd rather have criminals afraid than ordinary citizens.
We live in an imperfect world, and all the hugging in the world won't fix it.

Now I agree that people should store their guns safely. Even before the government made it mandatory, my parents kept their guns away from my brother and I. And the bullets were never kept with the guns.
Also in Israel, and Switzerland gun safety training is given in the military, and in Canada gun owners must take safety courses. So most people who own guns know how to use and store them safely.

So rather than banning all guns, why not make it mandatory to have safety courses? That way the 'dumb asses' won't accidentally kill each other?

Beautiful.

Well said.

We need an encore, man. :)

It was one shooter, Asian (eye witness account, could change), possibly looking for his girlfriend.

The way the school and police reacted was a fiasco. After the first shooting shortly after seven, they locked the school down.
Two hours later, without having a suspect in custody, they reopened the school and sent people to their classes.
Then the second shooting occurred all the way across campus.
If they had kept the school locked down until they had the shooter, at least half the victims would still be alive and healthy.

As of yet they haven't released any details about the weapon(s) used, so we don't know if the guns were illegal, legal, restricted. So no one can say if gun laws would have helped or not.

Wow. That makes it partially the University's fault, IMO.


Well I can't be suprised that this once again happens in America

George Bush says people possess the right to have a gun, but the law still applies.

Seriously..what is so hard to comprehend.. if guns weren't on sale to begin with you would hardly need to protect yourself with a gun

Where I live, we are not allowed to possess a firearm and have no need to either.

I think there should be a ban on guns, so it would be very hard to get your hands on one

Toddlers can get their hands on guns so easily in the U.S and while everyones going on about irresponsibility, some people are dumbasses, excuse my language and a good soloution is jsut to ban them altogether

People living in fear isn't the way to go
If you possess a firearm, you're living in fear, why else would you want to hold a gun in your house? To show it to your neighbours?
Gimme a break

Ban guns and then after we do that look at other areas.
Sure, some lunatic will always manage to get his hand on a gun whether its legal or illegal, but by making it illegal there is a lesser risk
And for the situation that happened today, could it have been dealt with in a better fashion? Yes. I don't get why people can't act on signs and do something when it's innocent peoples lives on the line.

I really don't know.

Firstly, what does it have to do with George Bush?

Secondly, we have the right to have firearms based on the United States Constituation.

Also, the current death toll is 33.

If fun video games means a school shooting every five years then that's a risk I'm willing to take.

The university keeps looking better and better.
http://www.local6.com/news/12194456/detail.html

The most important part is this:
Students complained that there were no public-address announcements or other warnings on campus after the first burst of gunfire. They said the first word they received from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage -- around the time the gunman struck again.

Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

And this:

Two people were killed in a dormitory room, and 31 others were killed in the engineering building, including the gunman, police said.

If they'd waited only two people might have died in the first attack. Instead we have 33.

If fun video games means a school shooting every five years then that's a risk I'm willing to take.

oh, yeah?... would you still think that if it was you, your sister or brother or parents or girl/boy friend who got shot in one?

If they'd waited only two people might have died in the first attack. Instead we have 33.

See that is the big problem here. They didn't wait and because of their ignorance 31 more people died that had lives and families. So who is going to take responsibility for that happening, for parents losing their children when it may have been prevented?

It sickens me that they were so careless, isn't it better to be more precautious these days!?

i'm sure heads will roll... everyone wants to have someone to blame, other than the gunman...

if they'd had the capacity to reach all students with text messages/cell phones [technology exists, but they don't have it there], and told all to stay where they were and be careful, lives would have been saved...

but, as with most things, hindsight is 20/20...

of course the gunman is to blame, he was the one that did it.

I guess people gotta realise that at the end of the day the only that has their back is themselves.........

IMHO, I don't think it's video games that's to blame, but rather the hate of the individual.

People are always going to say that video games are to blame, or TV.
It is the easiest reason for all of the violence in the streets these days.
But I agree with Lpspider, it isn't the games.
But think it is more the hate and anger and who knows maybew even depression that builds up in these people that drives them to do it.

Laura Anne Spaventa is a 20-year-old sophomore at Virginia Tech studying communications and fashion merchandising. She was in a media writing class at Shanks Hall when a university-wide email arrived, announcing a shooting nearby. “I didn’t think much of it,” she said. “There had been bomb threats and another shooting. It wasn’t real yet.” Soon after, another email arrived-this one urging students to stay put because “a gunman was on the loose,” she said. “Then, we heard five gunshots.” The professor locked the door, turned out the lights and “we all moved away from the windows and under our desks. It was very scary.”

Spaventa began text-messaging her brother, using her screen name “blueiyed” and her brother’s, “chiknman.” Early on, her mother joins the conversation-writing some messages under the brother’s screen name before switching to her own, “MyLittleMommy.” [The screen names have been shortened at the participants’ request]. What follows is a transcript of their exchanges:

blueiyed (10:37:35 AM): ug?
chiknman (10:37:10 AM): ey joke
chiknman (10:37:24 AM): day haha
chiknman (10:37:28 AM): snow day*
blueiyed (10:39:25 AM): i'm on lockdown under a desk right now..there's been shootings on campus and 1 person has been killed and another injured

chiknman (10:38:54 AM): wtf?
chiknman (10:38:57 AM): at vt?
blueiyed (10:40:33 AM): yeh put cnn on
chiknman (10:39:07 AM): what the ****
blueiyed (10:40:51 AM): watch the news and tell me whats going on
chiknman (10:39:44 AM): they dont have it on there
chiknman (10:39:48 AM): ill check other stations
blueiyed (10:42:17 AM): ok its on the news tho i promise b/c drew was telling me then he had to go to class
chiknman (10:41:18 AM): ya its on fox news
chiknman (10:41:19 AM): 1 sec
blueiyed (10:42:58 AM): ok
chiknman (10:42:19 AM): moms here
chiknman (10:42:36 AM): hey
blueiyed (10:44:06 AM): ok i tried calling her
chiknman (10:42:40 AM): what's going on now
blueiyed (10:44:25 AM): we can hear cops outside talking on loud phones
chiknman (10:43:00 AM): there's a gunman who shot someone
chiknman (10:43:05 AM): they said he's near the dorms
blueiyed (10:44:44 AM): apparently an ra was shot and 2 pewople jumped from the building and one person walked out bloody of burress

chiknman (10:43:34 AM): that's the building they are showing
chiknman (10:43:42 AM): reporter in pritcher hall
blueiyed (10:45:21 AM): no it happened in west aj [
chiknman (10:44:08 AM): hang on
chiknman (10:44:57 AM): west ambler johnston hall
blueiyed (10:46:31 AM): yeh
chiknman (10:45:01 AM): is he still there?
blueiyed (10:46:39 AM): yeh apparently
chiknman (10:49:13 AM): are you class or at home
blueiyed (10:51:00 AM): im in class under a desk
chiknman (10:49:36 AM): oh dear god
blueiyed (10:51:13 AM): yeh
chiknman (10:49:47 AM): what happened
blueiyed (10:51:17 AM): my thoughts exactly
blueiyed (10:51:40 AM): we heard the cops outside on their mega phones so we turned the lights off and drew the blinds and go on the floor

chiknman (10:50:33 AM): how did you know what was going on and to get down
blueiyed (10:52:22 AM): b/c we were getting e-mails from the university
chiknman (10:52:08 AM): oh
blueiyed (10:53:55 AM): OMG
blueiyed (10:54:14 AM): i just found out the 1st shooting happened at 7:15 we didn't get a damn e-mail until 9:30!!
chiknman (10:52:49 AM): is the teacher taking charge or is someone in communication w/ the outside
blueiyed (10:54:44 AM): yeh hes been calling and getting updates and our doors are locked, lights off and blinds ****
chiknman (10:54:49 AM): you mean shut or is **** a Fruedian slip ;-)
chiknman (10:55:01 AM): what class is this?
chiknman (10:55:16 AM): and you thought h.s. taught you lessons
blueiyed (10:57:47 AM): shut shoot...media writing we're all like writing articles about it..yeh seriously like this is such terrible press for us i can't believ this

chiknman (11:00:09 AM): don't worry about the press. Worry about surviving
blueiyed (11:02:05 AM): unconfirmed report from campous spokesperson: 2 people have been apprehended , 2 people killed
chiknman (11:01:00 AM): are they killed students?
chiknman (11:01:11 AM): who are the apprehended
blueiyed (11:02:43 AM): yeh i htink so i'm not sure
blueiyed (11:02:46 AM): i don't know
chiknman (11:01:26 AM): do i have the ability to log on to vt website and get the news?
chiknman (11:01:37 AM): what's the site
blueiyed (11:03:24 AM): this is what i'm hearing in class
blueiyed (11:04:25 AM): 5-6 gunshots outside my building =-O
chiknman (11:03:13 AM): right now - shooting?
blueiyed (11:06:13 AM): like 5 mins ago
blueiyed (11:06:45 AM): 7-8 casualities
chiknman (11:09:31 AM): are they students?
chiknman (11:10:59 AM): they said there were 2 shootings
chiknman (11:11:09 AM): one at 7:15 and the other at 10 ish
chiknman (11:11:19 AM): they said they have one person in custody
blueiyed (11:13:43 AM): apprently they have 2 in custodyu
blueiyed (11:15:08 AM): we just got this e-mail
blueiyed (11:15:09 AM): In addition to an earlier shooting today in West Ambler Johnston, there has been a multiple shooting with multiple victims in Norris Hall.

[The conversation is interrupted while the three exchange news forwarded from friends]

Police and EMS are on the scene.

Police have one shooter in custody and as part of routine police procedure, they continue to search for a second shooter.

All people in university buildings are required to stay inside until further notice.

All entrances to campus are closed.

[The conversation resumes]
blueiyed (11:19:10 AM): apparently a gf and bf were in a fight and an ra came in and told them to keep it down and the guy shot the ra in the leg and killed the girl

chiknman (11:18:31 AM): great!
chiknman (11:18:45 AM): why did he have a gun on campus?
blueiyed (11:20:44 AM): good ques

MylittleMommy (12:10:57 PM): are you there?
MylittleMommy (12:11:02 PM): what hall are you in now?
blueiyed (12:14:44 PM): still in shanks
blueiyed (12:15:01 PM): we aren't allowed to leave anymore
MylittleMommy (12:15:46 PM): why
blueiyed (12:17:29 PM): 20 fatalities
MylittleMommy (12:16:20 PM): dead or wounded
blueiyed (12:17:56 PM): dead
MylittleMommy (12:17:32 PM): Fox said 21 wounded / 1 dead
MylittleMommy (12:17:43 PM): the hospital is giving out this information so it's correct
blueiyed (12:20:03 PM): no this was just updated
MylittleMommy (12:18:34 PM): the president is coming on the air to give a news recap of events
blueiyed (12:20:51 PM): 1 person believed to be shooter is killed
MylittleMommy (12:21:31 PM): who killed him - the police? was the shooter a student?
blueiyed went away at 12:21:55 PM.
MylittleMommy(12:21:58 PM): the police is staging release of the buildings
________________________________

Auto Response from blueiyed (12:23:28 PM): stranded in shanks..about to have a breakdown why is this happening?
________________________________

blueiyed (12:23:57 PM): yeh i heard that
MylittleMommy (12:23:36 PM): now they said 20 dead
MylittleMommy (12:23:54 PM): the police chief is very vague with his information - still under investigation is what he's saying

MylittleMommy (12:24:09 PM): any idea when they'll let you out?
blueiyed (12:26:06 PM): i think soion
MylittleMommy (12:24:42 PM): are you okay
MylittleMommy (12:24:50 PM): they're saying they think it was 1 gunman
blueiyed (12:27:34 PM): yeh i'm just freaking out i want to come home i don't want to be here
MylittleMommy (12:27:45 PM): well they have counselors lined up and church service planned for healing. If you want to come home, I'll talk to Dad about a plane ticket.

MylittleMommy (12:27:57 PM): first let's get you out of the building
blueiyed (12:29:35 PM): i might esp if one of my friends was killed or hurt
MylittleMommy (12:28:11 PM): okay
blueiyed (12:29:51 PM): a girl in my cvlass said one of her sorority sisters was shot
MylittleMommy (12:30:25 PM): they're saying the shooter was an asian looking student
MylittleMommy (12:30:37 PM): what sorority
blueiyed (12:32:46 PM): pi phi
MylittleMommy (12:33:01 PM): well, a hysterical mrs brick called work and demanded to speak to me, Dan or have them give them a # where they can reach me. My co-worker called me all shook up saying she needed to talk to me and was a little hysterical

blueiyed (12:34:46 PM): wow
MylittleMommy (12:33:17 PM): aunt michele called all skittery and was asking for you too.
blueiyed (12:34:57 PM): i may be going on cnn to talk
blueiyed (12:35:06 PM): i feel like i'm going to throw up
MylittleMommy (12:34:12 PM): she quizzed my other coworker and told him it was an emergency!
MylittleMommy (12:34:28 PM): Kimmy's vma friend called to see if you are alright.
MylittleMommy (12:34:38 PM): why are you going on cnn?
blueiyed (12:36:54 PM): my friend imed me and asked me if i would want tot alk b/c his friend works for them and they want tot talk to people on campus

MylittleMommy (12:35:55 PM): oh
blueiyed (12:40:03 PM): ok iu'm leaving now i think
blueiyed signed off at 12:38:36 PM.
blueiyed is offline and will receive your IMs when signing back in.
MylittleMommy (12:40:03 PM): r u there
blueiyed went away at 1:33:02 PM.
blueiyed returned at 1:41:25 PM.
blueiyed went away at 1:43:15 PM.
blueiyed signed off at 3:52:46 PM.

Scary...

Wow...where'd you get that?

My thoughts exactly. Thanks for posting it though. Wow.

yeah all that I can say to that is the same as the others WOW!!!!!!!!!

New info on the shooter. http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/343354,vatech041607.articleprint
He might have been visiting from China with a student Visa.
No terrorist connections have been found currently.

My relative was a cop. While answering a domestic disturbance, he knocked on the front door, and a man shoved a shotgun in his face and fired. It killed him in the line of duty. Another relative was cleaning an "unloaded" gun, and shot his own stomach. He was fat so he survived. Right about now, you are probably thinking that I am anti-gun. Far from it. Study your history. Not to many years ago, it was common for a
BOY to go hunting in the woods. Audie Murphy, WWII's greatest hero(that we know of) grew up hunting for food. It is not about the guns or the easy access of guns. See, men like to blame everyone and anything else but themselves for their own sin. Some of you are tuning out now, right? Before guns it was swords, and after guns it will be atomic bombs or something.

Did you hear about the guy who drove his car into a daycare? Man, I guess we should severely limit cars. Car violence. Car deaths. Car shows. Do you get my point. It is never the object. The object is only as dangerous as the wielder of it. Google city statistics. Look up Washington, D.C., Chicago, and other places that break the law, true law, to make certain guns "illegal." You will find a sharp incline in violence and of all things, crimes involving guns. Australia recently banned nearly all guns. What happened? Crime went up 400%! Literally. Some guy in this board was mentioning the changes in London, and how they got rid of certain guns. Yeah, and now knife violence has risen.

The shooters at Colombine broke about 18 laws to do what they did. Oh yeah, and they killed kids. Do you really think they would obey one more law? Oh, but right about now some of you are saying, "But if they didn't have access to those guns, because of stricter gun legislation..." What? And criminals won't continue to sells guns on the streets? If we pass further gun laws, then regular citizens will not be able to defend themselves or you, some citizens will become "criminals" by ignoring those laws, and the criminals will still have access, and the price will go up. To pay for them, they will have to steal more. I have an idea. How about we outlaw criminals. You know, just make crime less accessible. Stricter laws and such.

When evolution is taught in schools, this doesn't help. People are taught, that there is no God, no truth, and no real reason to value life. They are taught that we are a cosmic accident, and not made in God's image. We are just advanced animals, etc. Do what you want. If it feels good, do it. Junk like that. Check out the information on the Colombine shooters. When he shot up the school he had a shirt about evolution, and they wrote about it. He asked that girl if she believed in God. And then shot her when she said, "Yes." The fault is not with a car, a weapon, a knife or a tool. It is with man and man alone.

Something I just discovered. It throws the whole gun control debate into some new light.
http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://diogenesborealis.blogspot.com/2007/04/va-tech-shootings-gun-control.html&title=VA%20Tech%20shootings%20&%20gun%20control

Good night

When evolution is taught in schools, this doesn't help. People are taught, that there is no God, no truth, and no real reason to value life. They are taught that we are a cosmic accident, and not made in God's image. We are just advanced animals, etc. Do what you want. If it feels good, do it. Junk like that. Check out the information on the Colombine shooters. When he shot up the school he had a shirt about evolution, and they wrote about it. He asked that girl if she believed in God. And then shot her when she said, "Yes." The fault is not with a car, a weapon, a knife or a tool. It is with man and man alone.

I liked your response up until this point.
Heres what really happened with that "Do you believe in God" question at Columbine. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/salon.htm
You have to read a little ways before you find out exactly what was said, but it was in a totally different context.

As for the rest, that is one way to look at evolution. But its not the common view. Just because atheists and evolutionists believe we are accidents, doesn't mean "do what you want" and don't worry about the consequences.
The way I and many others look at life, is that what we do has consequences here and now. The only ones looking over our shoulders is ourselves, and the people around us. So we could do whatever we want, but how will it affect the victims of our actions, those people we care about, the people in authority, how we see ourselves?
I don't believe there is an omnipresent being waiting to throw me in a fiery pit for eternity if I do something wrong. But I don't go out and lie, murder and steal. Because I was taught compassion. I was shown by my parents how these things hurt people around me. There are times when lying, stealing, and even murder MAY be called for, but I know how I would feel if someone did these things to me or someone I care about. So I choose when to lie very carefully, and it would have to be a life or death circumstance before I choose to steal or kill.

Now some people see the lack of a God to mean there is no moral compass. The only way to deal with them is through education, laws, and our reactions to their actions.
But please don't flatter yourself in believing that a belief in God will make the world a better place. A fair number of religious people have used their beliefs to maim, murder and terrorize.
Every idea, philosophy and religion has its ugly side. Stereotyping all of it because of these evil people is short sighted, and almost always ends badly.

Thank you.

But HOE has a point with his very last sentence: "[The fault] is with man and man alone."

When a town is bombed by planes and hundreds die, is it destiny or fate or cosmic judgement? No. It's humans dropping bombs out of the sky. It's our fault. Involving God in this is rather stupid.

Your welcome.
And you're right Ivan. I should have left that last line out of the quote. That was another part of HoE's post I really liked.
Every person is responsible for their actions.

When a town is bombed by planes and hundreds die, is it destiny or fate or cosmic judgement? No. It's humans dropping bombs out of the sky. It's our fault. Involving God in this is rather stupid.

AMEN, ivan!

Here are two actuals play written by Cho Seung Hui, before he massacred the students (and professor) of Virginia Tech.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech8.html

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-page-6/20070417142609990001

Sucks he had to go out like that. He had potential. Some quotes were hilarious. On a more serious note, I believe he was molested as a child, as revealed in his scripts.

I live maybe 45 minutes away from Virginia Tech and during school the day it happened we were all freaking out, texting our parents to see if they knew what was happening, texting our friends at Tech to see if they were ok...it was probably one of the scariest experiences I've had in a long while.

This guy is crazy to do something like this, especially since no body has found a solid motive for his actions.

yeah that would be pretty scary. I have never been in that situation luckily, but sometimes people don't have any motives for doing something, although one person once said that he got locked away and found guilty of committing a crime that he did not commit and then when he got out of jail he went and killed someone and said that he just wanted to know what it felt like.....now that is what I find scarey.....

When a town is bombed by planes and hundreds die, is it destiny or fate or cosmic judgement? No. It's humans dropping bombs out of the sky. It's our fault. Involving God in this is rather stupid.
and I don't think anyone could ever make a statement that is any more to the truth. we are the one's that make the decisions at the end of the day, we each have our own minds, maybe it is time we started using them.....

~Torana

Sadly Religion in the cause of many killings.
It seems to be the easiest excuse "Holy War" If God does exist and created humanity then why would he want us to Murder one another in such horrific ways?






~Raven.

Sadly Religion in the cause of many killings.
It seems to be the easiest excuse "Holy War" If God does exist and created humanity then why would he want us to Murder one another in such horrific ways?






~Raven.

That's flawed logic. You've assumed that just because we have the potential to kill means God would "want" us to kill. In no way is this the case.

Quote:
When a town is bombed by planes and hundreds die, is it destiny or fate or cosmic judgement? No. It's humans dropping bombs out of the sky. It's our fault. Involving God in this is rather stupid.

and I don't think anyone could ever make a statement that is any more to the truth. we are the one's that make the decisions at the end of the day, we each have our own minds, maybe it is time we started using them.....

ditto my 'amen!'...

That's flawed logic. You've assumed that just because we have the potential to kill means God would "want" us to kill. In no way is this the case.

and that's a total lack of logic... if there is a god, you can't know that, daniel!... no one can... if there is one, he could just as likely be enjoying the carnage as not...

Schools (and other so called “gun free” zones) will never be safe unless there are armed individuals there at all times. These murderers chose places where there would be little to no armed response. In a Utah Mall, a would-be mass murdering terrorist was stopped by a concealed firearms permit holder; at the Appalachian Law School, a would-be mass murderer was stopped by two concealed firearms permit holders; in Pearl, MS, a would be student murderer was stopped by an armed assistant principle, etc. Bad people using weapons are only stopped when confronted by good people carrying firearms. The Israeli’s learned this lesson long ago and now have armed teachers and guards at every school. This lesson has yet to sink in with America’s “gun control is the only answer” crowd. Gun control only leads to more violence unless you have a police state. Switzerland has less gun control than the US and the highest rate of gun ownership (75% i.e. 3 out of every 4 people, including women and children), yet has less violent crime than “gun-free” Great Britain, Australia, or China...

Today’s Dilemma (Wednesday April 18, 2007)

Who shall we cry for?
Thirty-three in Virginia?
Two hundred in Iraq?
What’s worth more…
lives of the privileged
or those ‘kinda black’
who lack safe havens,
live at death’s door
every day, dying
while buying food,
or just heading home
in their car,
not far enough from a bomb…
one of so many that
not any of you
who cry for your kind
pay much mind
to the toll…
so wholly engrossed
in what’s not even close to most
of the total number of dead
for whom tears are shed
today?

So, who do you cry for…
those here, or those there?
Those in your own country,
where such deeds are rare?
Or do you notice
how others must live
with the spectre of death
dogging each breath?
Do you care?

(I weep for them all…my wailing wall doesn’t end at my door)

That's flawed logic. You've assumed that just because we have the potential to kill means God would "want" us to kill. In no way is this the case.

Its a fair comment but Im not sure i can agree with you on this one I've seen some of the damage belief in religion can do and though we are all very different. It for many is a way of excuses. Sadly



BLACKSBURG, Virginia (Reuters) - Students expressed disgust and disbelief at photos and a rage-filled video diatribe sent to a television network by the gunman who massacred 32 people at Virginia Tech university.

it's FREE and...I have been refused credit I am applying for a mortgageI want to improve my credit rating I have just moved houseI want to check it's up to date I want to check my credit scoreI have not seen it before I'm concerned about identity fraud



Half-a-dozen Virginia Tech students gathered silently around a bank of televisions in the student centre late on Wednesday watching images of Cho Seung-Hui posing with his guns and video of him ranting against rich kids and debauchery.

The package received by NBC News on Wednesday carried a postmark showing Cho mailed his rambling manifesto after he killed his first two victims on Monday morning but before he went on to cut down 30 more people in classrooms.

"That's crazy. He kills two people and then goes to the post office and then he's ready for round two? It's creepy," said graduate student Nick Jeremiah, 34.

The images and long monologue suffused with paranoia and feelings of persecution painted a different picture of Cho, a 23-year-old student who has been described by teachers and other students as silent and withdrawn.

"He just goes on and on -- that's got to be more than he's spoken, ever," Jeremiah said. "I thought, 'well, he does talk.'"

Devin Cornwall, 19, who watched the video in a dormitory room with two friends, said the gunman's hatred for rich children made no sense.

"To me, that doesn't personify any Tech student I know. I always think of us as a blue-collar place," Cornwall said.

In the video and an 1,800-word document, Cho railed against wealth and debauchery, portrayed himself as a defender of the weak and voiced admiration for the 1999 Columbine High School massacre.

"You have vandalised my heart, raped my soul and tortured my conscience," said Cho, speaking directly to the camera and occasionally looking down to read his message.

"You thought it was a pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenceless people."

'MENTALLY ILL'

The messages added to an already chilling portrait of Cho from roommates and teachers who described him as a disturbed loner. Cho had been accused of stalking female students and was taken to a psychiatric hospital in 2005 because of worries he was suicidal. A Virginia court order issued at the time declared him "mentally ill" and said he presented "an imminent danger to self or others," ABC News reported.

The shooting has rekindled debate over U.S. gun laws, the most lenient in the Western world. News of Cho's past contacts with police and mental health specialists raised further questions over whether anyone could have picked up warning signs.

University officials and police have been criticised for taking too long to alert students to the danger after Cho killed his first two victims in a dormitory just after 7 a.m.

CNN quoted from a search warrant affidavit on Wednesday that showed police suspected a different man of the first murders. The network said police had been told by a student that the boyfriend of murdered Emily Hilscher had recently taken her to a shooting range, and assumed he was the main suspect. They were interviewing him outside the campus when Cho began his classroom rampage.

On the sprawling rural campus in southwestern Virginia, students were beginning to look ahead to Monday, when classes will resume.

"It's going to be weird being back in class. We're still going to feel uneasy in big lecture halls, or crossing the drill field," said industrial design student Phil Padilla, 20.

A lot of interesting points are raised in this thread... I think I'll start with the one about God.

The bible explains that God gave man (and woman) the Garden of eden to live in. When eve was tricked into eating the Fruit of Knowledge God punished both Adam and Eve by sending them from the Garden of Eden saying that with this knowledge they could no longer be so close to him.

This is the point where man was given free will. Meaning god had to need to dictate what man does. So it is irrational to say that God is happy with how humans have turned out and revels in their killing and maiming each other.

Why would he send his own son to sacrifice himself for man if he agreed with what they were doing to eachother?

Next I shall cover the ordeal of banning guns. Yes, making gun ownership illegal will reduce the amount of injuries and deaths through misuse. There is no way to stop people getting hold of a gun and keeping it illegally if they really want one. This can only be made harder for them. And yes people will sustitute gun crime for other methods.

But.

If you get a knife from a local hardware store and go to a school to massacre your fellow students, how far are you going to get? Yes you may easily kill a few people and injure several. But from what I've heard most students were kept in their classrooms with the doors some how barred. It'll be pretty hard for a knife wielder to get into the classroom to hurt the people inside. With proper training, you can disarm someone with a knife a lot easier that someone shooting at you blindly through a door.

Think about it.

And now onto the whole "It was the kids own fault" issue. Of course he was the one that did it and he could have chosen not to (although that seems pretty unlikely now, doesn't it?) What about the people that lead up to this? Reading through the plays the boy had written, it is clear he must have been sexually harrassed as a child. He was a loner, yes. But who took the time to be friend him and get to know him? You don't see kids with lots of friends and a healthy background going around killing each other, do you? Kids like this need to realise that there are people that they can go to for help. People they can trust. Maybe if somebody had made the effort to spend time with him and take an interest in him he wouldn't have done what he did.


(Edit)
One more thing. What does it matter whether 2 people die or 30 people die or even 1 million people die? It's still a tragedy. I recall someone saying something along the lines of "33 people dead, all who had families and friends". I doubt the first two killings could have been avoided so late in the game. They must have friends and family. Would it be less of a tragedy if those were the only two students dead right now? No.
(/Edit)

Over and Out.

Alice the school was a gun free zone, but Cho kept the pistols in his dorm room. He was already breaking the law. Would having to buy a gun illegally have stopped him?

Now here are some facts from the US, courtesy of http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/04/guns-guns-guns.html&title=Guns,%20Guns%20...%20Guns
"Crime rates(in Florida) involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1989.(Read CC permit holders don’t commit crimes.)

After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below the national average and remains below the national average to this day.

The serious crime rate in Texas fell 50% faster than the national average after a concealed carry law was passed in 1995.

"Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or
prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense".

The total Violent Crime Rate is 26% higher in the restrictive states (798.3 per
100,000 pop.) than in the less restrictive states (631.6 per 100,000).
The Homicide Rate is 49% higher in the restrictive states (10.1 per 100,000) than in the states with less restrictive CCW laws (6.8 per 100,000).

The Robbery Rate is 58% higher in the restrictive states (289.7 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (183.1 per 100,000).

The Aggravated Assault Rate is 15% higher in the restrictive states (455.9 per
100,000) than in the less restrictive states (398.3 per 100,000)."

There are also the three cases That HoE already stated. Mass murderers trying to kill numerous people and stopped by armed citizens.
Banning guns doesn't seem to help very much.

Now for the 'kid', at 23 I don't consider him a kid. He did get help. In 2005 he was stalking women. The police and police counselor talked to him, explaining how he shouldn't stalk women. They didn't charge him, they explained things to him, and offered help. Almost immediately afterwards his roommate called for help when Cho was potentially suicidal. The counselors once more talked with him, and seeing his situation sent him to a psychiatric hospital, because he was a danger to himself.
They gave him counseling, and medication for his depression. Then believing he was on the road to recovery they sent him back into society, with the understanding he would continue seeking help.
Following this, an English teacher saw how he acted in her class. She talked to him, and various people in charge, but to no avail. She was afraid to have him in her class, but there were no overt signs of danger. So he was removed from the class but nothing else happened.
Now as a 23 year old, unless there is a solid case for fearing that he would inflict violence against himself or others, the system can't do anything.
So all of the counseling, medication, and attempts to talk by roommates, teachers and police did nothing. He had help, maybe not as much as he should have, but there was help. It was forced on him at one point, and offered freely at other times.
He did not accept it. So unless we want to throw people in mental wards if they show signs of aggression, or non-conformance, we have to accept that some people will explode.
It sucks, but do you have a better idea.

Domoviye, you are just repeating my point of:

There is no way to stop people getting hold of a gun and keeping it illegally if they really want one.

So I agree. It wouldn't have stopped him. Him being one person. But perhaps it would stop some people.

I don't consider putting someone in a ward and giving them a few pills help. And if you really want to help someone you don't STOP helping them. :s

How would you go about helping him?
He was suppose to continue going to counseling sessions. People offered to help him at various times. The police did everything in their power to help him.
Should we have had his neighbours watching him every moment to make sure he didn't cut himself? Police drive him to therapy sessions? Had his medication monitored to ensure he was taking the daily dosage? What should we do? How far can we legally go before the person snaps simply from being watched all the time?

Now as for banning guns to stop a few people. Show me a country where that has actually worked? One country that has banned guns and the violent crime rate has actually dropped.

BLACKSBURG, Va. - Long before he boiled over, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

Cho shot 32 people to death and committed suicide Monday in the deadliest one-man shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

That must've suck.

Wow. They were bastards.

Still no reason to go on a rampage. And it doesn't disprove the fact that at least some people did try to help.

Now, I can see why he did what he did...

It wasn't just his fault. It was everyone's fault, really.

Wow. They were bastards.

Still no reason to go on a rampage. And it doesn't disprove the fact that at least some people did try to help.

Help?

That's not what I call help.

Help is when you listen to what others are saying, insteading of sniggering and calling him names. If they didn't do that, there might've still been a chance.

I said some people. Not all people. Like I said the people in that class were bastards.
But his roommate probably kept Cho from killing himself. The police did what they legally could do to help him out. And that incident happened in high school. Was he treated that way in College? We don't know.
How many people tried to talk to him in College? Again we don't know.
You want to make the world better, teach children better manners. But just because you were laughed at doesn't give anyone the right to kill others. Half the people I know were bullied and humiliated in high school. Not one of them has killed a person.

Because you are white.

If you were Korean, and was constantly called china-man, chinky eyes, ching chong ching chong ching chong and ching chong, every day of your natural-born life, you would understand.

It's the same as saying nigger to a black man.

Metis actually.
And I was called psycho, fat ass, idiot, fag, asshole, dog, and several other things that aren't fit to post. Since I was in kindergarten. Because I was dyslexic, spoke so quickly I was barely understandable, and overweight. There were also several memorable fights.
And in High school I was laughed at by the entire class as even the teacher smiled.
Good times.


Heres an interesting link from Japan. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1379537.stm
8 students dead, 15 injured, in a school attack.
The weapon was a knife.

Domoviye, I'm not talking about help from 'professionals' as they like to be known. But from his peers. Some people don't realise how deep comments their personal comments can cut someone. :\

As a victim of bullying at upper school I advise any kid I see being bullied or know of that has been bullied to tell someone about it. Only then can it be sorted out.

I kinda steered off track a little then.

I'm all for bullying bullies right back too. P=

And we still run into the problem of not knowing if people tried to or not.
When I hit university I did an awful lot to get over my problems with people in general. A lot of other people who are bullied do as well.
But if I had decided to stay in my shell, theres not one bloody thing anyone could have done to help me.
His roommate seems to have tried. Maybe some of his classmates did as well. But considering his state of mind he may not have even realized these people were trying to help him.
So are people who have their own problems, lives, and education to worry about, suppose to spend every waking hour, making sure that the person beside them is happy and cheerful? Especially when that same person barely acknowledges their existence?

Now, I can see why he did what he did...

It wasn't just his fault. It was everyone's fault, really.

Oh, right. So because I've been teased ever since kindergarten for being smart and unpopular (And of course called "fag" a thousand times a day even when no one can actually prove I am one), this is obviously good reason for me to go out and kill a couple dozen people in cold blood, and then end my own life so I can speed up my descent to hell!
Thanks for clearing that up, really! I think I'll just go out on a murderous rampage and wound the bodies and pysches of dozens of people for no good reason, because you said it was okay and understandable!

[/outraged sarcasm]

Whenever anything really bad happens around Korean people, that is when I would like to hide, go to Hawaii and eat spam sushi until it blows over. I don’t want to comment on it because I don't want to escalate the situation and I don't want to implicate myself in it. I don't want to 'come out' as Asian because therein lies a tremendous responsibility that I never volunteered for, that I don't have any real control over, and that is as mysterious to me as it is to someone who isn't Asian.

So here is the whole terrible mess of the shootings at Virginia Tech. I look at the shooter's expressionless face on the news and he looks so familiar, like he could be in my family. Just another one of us. But how can he be us when what he has done is so terrible? Here is where I can really envy white people because when white people do something that is inexplicably awful, so brutally and horribly wrong, nobody says – “do you think it is because he is white?” There are no headlines calling him the “White shooter." There is no mention of race because there is no thought in anyone's mind that his race had anything to do with his crime.

So much attention is focused on the Asian-ness of the shooter, how the Korean community is reacting to it, South Korea's careful condolences and cautiously expressed fear that it will somehow impact the South Korean population at large.

What is lost here is the grief. What is lost is the great, looming sadness that we should all feel over this. We lose our humanity to racism, time and time again.

I extend my deepest sympathies to all those who lost their loved ones, their children, their friends and family, in this unimaginable tragedy. I send them all the love I have in me, and I encourage everyone to do the same.

--Margaret "Cho"

Over 30? Jesus...
The news is saying that there are only 22 confirmed dead. It's disgusting. Almost like people are taking Columbine as a challenge. You Yanks need to sort out your gun laws...

I don't think it's an issue with gun laws. I think it's an issue with our youth. If you want to kill someone, I don't think you're afraid to go a little further and break a gun law.

There was a shooting at my high school last year. No one got hurt...it was an LD kid who was constantly ridiculed. He brought a gun to school and was loading it in the bathroom right before classes started for the day. Another kid walked in and didn't believe that the gun was real. So the kid with the gun shot it into the ceiling to prove that it was real. Luckily, my principal was standing right outside the bathroom and heard the shot. He and a teacher went into the bathroom and pinned the kid to the wall while another teacher notified our school officer and the police came. The school followed our emergency evacuation for an intruder (we practice bomb threat and intruder drills in my school district ever since 2000) and school was canceled for the day. The kid with the gun was taken into custody. I'm not sure what ended up happening to him...I live in a small town and it was all very hush-hush.

After the incident, my school reacted by getting more police officers on campus, perfecting evacuation drills, and locking down the school. By locking down the school I mean that every single door in the school is locked from the outside all the time. The front doors are open to come in and out, but doors to all classrooms, closets, etc. are locked. The thought behind this is that if someone brings a gun to school it will delay and minimize the people that get hurt. If someone's comes to school with a gun, they most likely have an idea of who or where they're going to go. And if the doors are all locked and they know the authorities are going to be notified as soon as they fire a shot, then they're more likely to go directly to their "target" and skip out on killing people along the way. I know that sounds horrible, but there is some logic behind it.

Anyway...all this rambling has gotten a little off topic. My original point was that I don't think all the school violence occurring among American youth in the past few years is entirely related to gun control. Yes, I do think that we need to tighten our gun laws. But I also believe that we need to be paying more attention to our youth. We need to give them places to go *before* they get pushed to the edge. We need to encourage kids to talk to one another and to adults/councilors around them if they need to...whether it's about themselves or about someone else. We need to stop the problem before it becomes a disaster like that at Virginia Tech and Columbine and so many other schools over the past decade or so.

We need to stop the problem before it becomes a disaster like that at Virginia Tech and Columbine and so many other schools over the past decade or so.

how do you propose that be done?

WAYNESBURG, Ky. -- Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle's tires and stop an intruder.

Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment.

Ramey said the man told her he would leave. "I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said.

She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun.

"I didn't even think twice. I just went and did it," she said. "If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be 6 feet under by now."

Ramey then flagged down a passing motorist, who called 911.

Curtis Parrish of Ohio was charged with misdemeanor trespassing, Deputy Dan Gilliam said. The man's hometown wasn't immediately available. Three other people were questioned but were not arrested.

After winning the pageant with her singing, dancing and comedic talents, Ramey sold war bonds and her picture was adorned on a B-17 that made missions over Germany in World War II, according to the Miss America Web site.

Ramey lived in Cincinnati for several years and was instrumental in helping rejuvenate Over-the-Rhine historic buildings. She returned to Kentucky in 1990 to live on her farm.

"I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble, and all it is, is one thing after another," she said.

Bravo.

I think it's tragic that you can no longer feel safe in a school. It's bad enough that you have to avoid bullies and the odd nasty teacher. As far as I know, most Australian schools don't have metal detectors. It's scary to think that this is happening! We have gun laws and such but people can still get guns and such. But I have never heard of a shooting in an Australian school so maybe gun laws do have some sort of impact. But then again, guns can be used as protection. But I'm not sure because, and no offense intended, I haven't been brought up in a society where I can go into town and get a gun within a short period of time. But the family of the killer I feel sorry for. Who could imagine that their child would become a murderer? My heart goes out to the victims family, friends, and souls and so too the family of the murderer.