I just want to say that I really ....

[trailer trash]

I just want to say that I really like this forum, and see the potential for it to grow and become something very special. That is why I am taking time to point out a few things. I have ignored them until now. But, for myself and for those members who want this forum to succeed I am taking this opportunity to speak out.

Many new members post stories, poems etc… without taking time to offer up a critique or comment on others work. I think someone mentioned just recently that two or three critiques would be about right before beginning to post your own work.

It looks as if many members have no real desire for anyone else to read their work. Why do I say this? Well first, and most importantly, many are guilty of not taking the time to put their work in any readable format. And those that do this just dump everything into one paragraph and then expect others to read it. I’m sure that even the least educated of members here never did this anywhere else--not even in the third grade.

I know it can be a pain-staking process sometimes to get your work up on the forum. But, no matter how hard it is that should not be used as an excuse for sloping your post and work up on the board as if they do not matter. If you are having problems, you should contact the administrator.

High jacking threads and posting in the wrong area is also starting to become a problem. It is causing the board to become unorganized and hard to find what you are looking for when you visit. Not to mention it is not very impressive to others, who might be considering joining our forum.

If you have any problems or suggestions you should contact the administrator, or post your suggestion in the area provided for in the forum.

Thanks,

Trailer Trash

[Spherical Time]

If anyone has any questions about how to present your work in a forum friendly format, just let me know.

[Daniel]

Good stuff TT. I'll stick this.

[Raven]

Just wanted to say I agree.
I read this and thought it was a wise idea.



~Raven.

[IndianaJoan]

*agree*

By the way TT...I LOVE your nick!! LOL

[zerobytes]

I also want to agree with this message. I know that I'm a relative newbie myself but I definitely agree that the point of this forum (at least for me) is to critique the work of others as best as I can and hope for the same in return. I know that the first thing every new member wants to do is go right to the appropriate post - paste in their most recent work and wait to be showered with praise (at least that's what I did :D) I didn't notice the "Crit before you Submit" post until afterwards and then I tried to crit as much work as possible to make up for my (then obvious to me) inexperience. I don't know if there is a better way to inform new members that they should critique 3-4 pieces before they post but it could help a lot.

As for the formatting, I ran into a problem with pasting my work into the post (I tried an attachment at first but I think that caused some problems). When you copy and paste from a word processor you lose a lot of formatting from the original work by doing so. This took a post or two to learn (but I'm not a big forum user so....) Perhaps we could have a welcome post that is a mandatory read before people can start posting??

But even with the problems I still really enjoy this forum. Thanks for setting it up and modding it!!

zb

[A.K.Asha]

Hi AK here
I'm glad I read this as I was not aware that it was perhaps polite to offer my own critique on other users work before I submitted anything of my own. Must admit though that I've never really written reviews of other peoples' work so my initial comments may not amount to much at first.

AK Asha

[judesplace]

I haven't been here long enough to have found this out, but couldn't there be different groups for different access levels? Maybe not allow anyone to post a story until they have posted at least 5 times in the review forum and then get moved to the level with access to post a new topic. I know I can do that on my forum (and do), and it helps me keep things organized, especially since I do the upgrading once the member has achieved the correct amount of posts!

[Crazy Ivan]

Actually, you have to post 2 reviews in the Review Room before putting up a story of your own, and while we do advance in member titles along with posts (ie "Senior Member" and whatforth) we don't actually get any special privileges unless we're mods.

[poempedlar]

I just want to say that I really like this forum, and see the potential for it to grow and become something very special. That is why I am taking time to point out a few things. I have ignored them until now. But, for myself and for those members who want this forum to succeed I am taking this opportunity to speak out.

Many new members post stories, poems etc… without taking time to offer up a critique or comment on others work. I think someone mentioned just recently that two or three critiques would be about right before beginning to post your own work.

It looks as if many members have no real desire for anyone else to read their work. Why do I say this? Well first, and most importantly, many are guilty of not taking the time to put their work in any readable format. And those that do this just dump everything into one paragraph and then expect others to read it. I’m sure that even the least educated of members here never did this anywhere else--not even in the third grade.

I know it can be a pain-staking process sometimes to get your work up on the forum. But, no matter how hard it is that should not be used as an excuse for sloping your post and work up on the board as if they do not matter. If you are having problems, you should contact the administrator.

High jacking threads and posting in the wrong area is also starting to become a problem. It is causing the board to become unorganized and hard to find what you are looking for when you visit. Not to mention it is not very impressive to others, who might be considering joining our forum.

If you have any problems or suggestions you should contact the administrator, or post your suggestion in the area provided for in the forum.

Thanks,

Trailer Trash Of course we want exposure for our work but this is not a one way street. Read and learn from others. If we all concentrate on only our own work, nobody will read it either.

[Funny Bunny]

I've had such nasty reply that I will only read. My blog entry's are all gone now. It was a really nice site, but it is not very welcoming. I actually found several very angry members, and of course, am very sad that I can't actually say anything. What is the point.

[SeaBreeze]

Unfortunatly, there are a few out there that are nasty and don't give any constructive advice on whatever you happen to post.

But it sucks that it happened to you Funny Bunny. I think I saw a novel or short story? That you had posted and someone hadn't been very nice. And to have this happen reflects badly on the forum. I'm very sorry that this has happened and why on earth were your blogs deleted? What was in them? I mean, some material isn't allowed but...
still, I am sorry that you have had a bad experience. Have you gone to the admin or the moderators about this?

[MowsysWrath]

Agree. I still haven't givin my feedback to anyone. I'll go do that.

[mercy]

Please allow me to apologize for posting in the wrong areas.

I treated the forum as any random web site, and scanned its content instead of looking it over thoroughly. The writing issues area was minimized. So, I missed it.

After reading you post I realized my mistake, and understand now that I registered as a member in a community. Out of courtesy, I should have taken the time to review all aspects of the forum before posting.

I am sorry for my carelessness. It will not happen again.

[Ennui]

Your laudatory is the thing which makes people gleeful.
Your absolution can be forgiven.Let this forum spirit bless all brethren.
Blessings.

[wt6869]

I'm not sure if I agree with the original post.
I'm not very good at writing. Everything I write is very personal and I don't wish for others to see it. Besides, I am an extreme critic, and I can see all the weaknesses of my writing.
I would probably make a better editor than a writer.
My point is this.
I do post critiques on others' work without having posted my own work. Every time I do, I wonder if the author will even listen to what I have to say because I haven't really showed any of my work. Why should he, if I have nothing of my own to show?
The truth of it is that I really enjoy reading the work of other people, and I like to encourage the author. If I see something that can be improved upon, I mention it. And
if I don't like a piece, for whatever reason, I keep the opinion to myself.
Everyone on this forum is here for their own reasons. If a person posts without critiquing, then maybe this person does not feel confident enough to critique someone else's work and should not be forced to do so.
I think the biggest point to make is that all who post should be encouraged to continue writing. If you can't give words of encouragement or advice, then keep your trap shut.

[Cogito]

Well, the Review Room workshop is a critiquing workshop, so anyone who wants to post there has to commit to participating by posting constructive critiques (http://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?p=408268#post408268) first.

No one will think less of you for offering writing suggestions without showing your writing style first. They don't to become your writing clone. What they are looking for is possible ways to improve their own writing. So you suggestions need to stand on their own - you learn to be specific in your recommendations, and explain WHY you recommend them.

When you examine your suggestions to that detail, you learn to also apply the same thought process to your own writing, and you become a better writer.

The other place on the site you can post your own writing is your member blog. There are no restrictions there except the general content restrictions of the site. But don't count on the depth of critique you would get in the workshop.

[lipton_lover]

I agree with your post. I apologize to Cog, there have been a few times already where he had to move one of my threads or even delete them because I put things in the wrong place.

As for reviewing, I'm not one of the more prominent reviewers and I feel bad about it because I do have the time. I'm not really sure what's holding me back. But for anyone else, if you don't have the time/interest/some other reason to critique others, there are other ways you can benefit this forum as well. You could just breeze through pieces and give an overall impression which can help the author a lot. You can also just spend time greeting new members and making them feel welcome. Put in your signature that you'll answer questions if people need help. Be active in the writing issues section. All of these are other ways to help without reviewing.

Nate

[tbeverley]

I just get excited by the fact that there are all these writers out there to read. They may be good, bad, average; but maybe they'll all be good someday. I just hope they don't quit, because writers tend to quit before they've got far, disappearing into some other life pursuit. I tend to think that if the worst writer in the universe kept writing, eventually the writing would be good.

I don't review for others, really; I review because I'm interested in seeing other writers write. I like communities because, quite frankly, I'm lonely. I don't have anyone to talk to about writing; thus, I look around online for other writers - a rare specimen these days.

If it were Paris in 1925 and Henry Miller walked up to me and said, "Could you read this, I'm not sure if it's any good," well, that's like being here. All these writers, like a little garden of blooming flowers.

Anyway, nobody critiqued the one story I posted. 40 people read it.

I can't complain, however, because I'm more interested in socializing if possible than having someone read my writing. It's likely the same for everyone: Who really is going to care what someone else says about their writing? I think we're all here just for the company, and if we're posting stories or critiquing, it's likely just for the sake of having someone to talk to.

Writers are lonely.

If you post, send me a PM and I'll critique it.

[cinnim0ngirl]

I agree with the original post. I think if you are going to ask something of someone, you should be willing to do the same in return. I also agree with something else that was mentioned, this forum can come across as unwelcoming. As a 'newbie' myself I did all the wrong things right off. Posted in the wrong place and it was moved, asked the same thing many others had and as a result my thread was closed. I accept that I should have read more or looked harder for the answers. I was just excited to find a place where people were willing to give advice and maybe save me from countless oops moments with my writing. And possibly give what little advice I have learned through my own oops moments. I wasn't expecting the harshness of some of the postings I have read. To someone like myself who honestly didn't know and asked, to have it answered rudely was a blow. I already feel over my head with attempting to write a novel when everyone I know said don't waste your time. I don't have anyone to ask things or show me how to do something. So I asked here, as many others have. I didn't know the rules of the forum or what was PC. I didn't know about the read others first before you post thing and sadly would have probably added to that irritation. There are right and wrong ways to answer every question. You might have answered the same question hundreds of times and sworn the next idiot who asks will be blasted...well when you are the unknowing idiot unlucky enough to utter “Hey, what does this mean?” and get “AAAAAHHHH!!! back,well pardon me but it sucks. No one should be made to feel inadequate, stupid or ashamed for asking any question. I am not directing this to anyone specific, almost everyone has been helpful. Sorry if this came across as rude itself but I felt it was a good point to make for the ones who don't know, I include myself in that category.

[Joel King]

I'm very happy to hear someone vocalize this and retain such a streak of posts in agreeance with this issue. This issue is the reason why I am a new member here.

[Jammer]

Trailer Trash: I realize that your post dates back to 2006, but in seeing it IS a "sticky" thread on top, I figured it would not be seen as a bump of a dead conversation.

I just wanted to point out an analogy we had on the previous music site I used to be on (for about 7 years). That site had a forum for the musical artists to post their original (often solo) songs in MP3 format, and it seems that site had the same issue you speak about in your post. Most of those members loved to make MP3s of their playing and post it for a pat on the back, yet very very few of those posting their musical art would bother to listen and say much about others posted songs. The end result was some awesome artistic value being buried to the back forum pages often with 0 replies. It was so obvious that we had a problem on the other site, and it reminds me all too well of the issues you speak of here.

At first I was surprised that this site had any problems with anyone joining up and quickly posting their work without reading others work, because that is not why I am here. But, once I drew a parallel between what happen on the music site I used to post on I suddenly realized exactly what you were getting at.

I came here to read, not just post. I came here to learn, I am one member that is not ready yet to share my writings, yet I have no issue sharing my music. All in all you sparked some thinking and I now understand the rules of this site better.

Great post. That is all. :cool:

Terry


I just want to say that I really like this forum, and see the potential for it to grow and become something very special. That is why I am taking time to point out a few things. I have ignored them until now. But, for myself and for those members who want this forum to succeed I am taking this opportunity to speak out.

Many new members post stories, poems etc… without taking time to offer up a critique or comment on others work. I think someone mentioned just recently that two or three critiques would be about right before beginning to post your own work.

It looks as if many members have no real desire for anyone else to read their work. Why do I say this? Well first, and most importantly, many are guilty of not taking the time to put their work in any readable format. And those that do this just dump everything into one paragraph and then expect others to read it. I’m sure that even the least educated of members here never did this anywhere else--not even in the third grade.

I know it can be a pain-staking process sometimes to get your work up on the forum. But, no matter how hard it is that should not be used as an excuse for sloping your post and work up on the board as if they do not matter. If you are having problems, you should contact the administrator.

High jacking threads and posting in the wrong area is also starting to become a problem. It is causing the board to become unorganized and hard to find what you are looking for when you visit. Not to mention it is not very impressive to others, who might be considering joining our forum.

If you have any problems or suggestions you should contact the administrator, or post your suggestion in the area provided for in the forum.

Thanks,

Trailer Trash

[Meliha]

I think I have read a lot the stuff that's posted in the review part of the forum, at least in the 'children's and general short story; and novel' parts but sometimes I don't want to leave a comment because I didn't like what I read and I just don't want to hurt anyone; so unless the poster clearly stated that even negative comments are welcome, I just leave. I think anyone who doesn't want to read what others wrote should really think about whether writing is the best way for them.

I don't know enough about poetry to give any insight into that. English is not my first language so I really don't think I should advise anyone about grammar and spelling; but I will help out with ideas, or at least I will try whether the author will think they are usable or not is really up to them. I can give my opinion as an 'average reader' - what I felt, what I think is missing; that kind of stuff. Is that enough? If i ever spot a place where something can be said better and I have some idea on how to do that, I will do that too.

For me, writing is a hobby; and reading (IMO) goes hand in hand with writing, so I like to read the stuff that's been posed.

Should I leave bad comments as well as good ones? Because I have read some stuff that's left me completely confused and unsure what on earth I read - and this could be just me, so I don't know if this kind of remark would put someone off writing... Or am I just being dramatic now? A little too empathetic and in a wrong way?

[Cogito]

Meliha, you're looking at it the wrong way. You dig out the weaknesses in a piece of writing, not to attack the writer, rather to help him or her improve it. More to the point, you are training yourself to find and fix problems in your own writing.

The Review Room is a critiquing workshop. Anyone who posts there expects (or should expect!) that their writing will be dismanteled for any weaknesses.

[Meliha]

Meliha, you're looking at it the wrong way. You dig out the weaknesses in a piece of writing, not to attack the writer, rather to help him or her improve it. More to the point, you are training yourself to find and fix problems in your own writing.

The Review Room is a critiquing workshop. Anyone who posts there expects (or should expect!) that their writing will be dismanteled for any weaknesses.

Hmm... OK, thanks. I will still try to make my posts soft, or at least as soft as I can (I have never been good at 'diplomatic' replies)... I will try and stay clear of: 'I have no idea what this text is about' or 'I think you got that all wrong, I don't think it works as you've presented it' :redface:

[Jammer]

Hmm... OK, thanks. I will still try to make my posts soft, or at least as soft as I can (I have never been good at 'diplomatic' replies)... I will try and stay clear of: 'I have no idea what this text is about' or 'I think you got that all wrong, I don't think it works as you've presented it' :redface:

Meliha, as another newbie I also can fully relate to the feelings you are having when you read a writing yet stop just short of attempting to write even the shortest of reviews. It applies to about all creative projects in my opinion. Somebody creates something they are proud of, they display it in front of others, of which many may be real knowledgeable experts, and we fear hurting their feelings because some of us figure they only want a pat on the back, and that is not what the rules say we are supposed to do in a review. My game plan is to at least get a bit of a feel for the writer and try to give them the level of review they ask for and I am capable of.

If it is a writer's very first time posting for review AND the author tells us that he/she is fragile and for us to take it easy, well I guess we can do that and safely not hurt their feelings. BUT, how much will such a newbie author learn from this? I see both sides. I do not like hurting people's feelings either, but sometimes we have to toughen up a little or we can never learn how to get better at our chosen craft. With Creativity the same type of logic seems to apply to a wide spectrum of art, such as writing a book (imho). Not everything is the same, of course, but the general idea of reviewing seems to work well for people in other creative arts as well.

I fully expect to get ripped by a review upon my first review-post. That is because I happen to be a guy of many hats, but a writer is the newest hat I have.... in other words I am about as "green" (new) as a writer can be.

I am 45. When I was in Tenth grade High School I once got an -A Plus- on a Creative Writing story I wrote in class. It was my first clue I could write anything well enough. We had 35 students in the class. I had a ripped faded jean jacket and a long hair image at the time and to my SHOCK the teacher picked MY paper to read to the class (what a shocker! I wanted to die, I mean I had worked soooo hard on my outlaw "Sweat-Hogg" image just to lose it all to that teacher trying to make me look good!), only for me to latter FLUNK the class because I was too stubborn to care about things called Verbs and Nouns. hahaha.

So people like me need a lot of help in proper use of word structure/grammar and spelling. However, like most here, I have my reasons for believing I have a shot at this. Once I post my work I will have to brace myself to offset my general emotional personality. I would think by the time most writers post their writings here for review that they must be to a point in which they feel they are well on the right track and are seeking help beyond all of their self done proof reading.

I can recall writing a paper over and over about a dozen times until I was SURE I had it perfect. I showed my girlfriend of the time and she found about ten mistakes on the first page!! :eek: Argh! As long as one words there review right, nobody should get offended by getting help at improving their writing skills. Anybody priced Creative Writing 101 for 13th Grade recently? It's more bang for your buck here!

We don't have to burn a person at a stake just to say the plot seems weak. Just like anything else, even being trained for the first day on a new job, We may make mistakes and get told more than once about the right way to do the job, but we should not take it personally, likely the boss is simply trying to train us on a timely bases and it's easy to take such comments personally.

Wow whenever I post my writings here everyone is going to think I just made up that story about tenth grade English class. lol

Terry

[squire848]

There are an awful lot of threads in the reviewing room that have to be locked as these people have not critiqued anyone elses work.

Now firstly I think this rule is a great idea. Not only does doing this help ones own writing, as well as the writer's, but it also builds a strong team on the forums and a great atmosphere.

When I first joined I received a lovely welcome pm. And when I introduced myself cogito welcomed me but also explained the rules in regard to this.

It has struck me that not everybody introduces themselves, or bothers to read the stickies before posting their work. As locking these threads takes up space on the forum page, as well as creating extra work for the moderators, I wonder if it would be a good idea to include these rules in the welcome pm?

Squire

[garmar69]

This is just my opinion, but I suspect that you could flash the review room guidelines in neon across a new member's screen and have them bellowing out of the speakers and there will still be this same issue.

When I first signed up I didn't even make a welcome thread, but I did lurk for a while and reply in the less structured areas until I got a feel for what was going on. Soon after, I started doing reviews (badly most of the time) and probably had 20-30 of them under my belt before I submitted a story for review. You know what I discovered? I learned much more from doing reviews and trying to make sure I was doing a good job of it than I did from receiving them.

[squire848]

I learned much more from doing reviews and trying to make sure I was doing a good job of it than I did from receiving them.

Which is why I feel the rule is such a good one.

[jenemoreno]

Hello to everyone.. When I browsed this site I was instantly truck by the beauty of the idea of it. Thank you for having me.

I became a member just yesterday, and was very excited to post 1 blog. I did not fully understand some of the rules before I did. I am fortunate enough, however, to come here and read the "Suggestions and Feedback" section of this forum. I shall make amends.

I'm having the same issue that AK has mentioned above about not being experienced enough to critique someone's work. How then should we proceed?

-jene

[DisFanJen]

Hello to everyone.. When I browsed this site I was instantly truck by the beauty of the idea of it. Thank you for having me.

I became a member just yesterday, and was very excited to post 1 blog. I did not fully understand some of the rules before I did. I am fortunate enough, however, to come here and read the "Suggestions and Feedback" section of this forum. I shall make amends.

I'm having the same issue that AK has mentioned above about not being experienced enough to critique someone's work. How then should we proceed?

-jene

How do you proceed with Critiquing?

I honestly think that the best policy is to get stuck in. Everyone has something to offer with these things, from old hands to newbies.

I've done a couple of reviews so far (4 or 5 I think) and though I don't have much experience in them, I went from my gut instinct, kept it polite even if I didn't like the work and I think that some of my stuff was useful to people.

I even got a PM from someone saying my insights were very helpful. So having no experience isn't a drawback, and anyway experience only comes through practice so if you want it, get in there and critique!

If you mean how do we proceed with the issue of people not following the rules, well I think that what we're doing now is all wew can do. Sometimes people just don't read or follow rules, and I'm not just talking about here.

[mammamaia]

for those of you who are short on experience/knowledge, the best way to help is to not try to critique like a pro, but just give your opinions as a reader...

[April wilson]

Hi everyone,

I am a newbie too, and will very shortly investigate methods of critique, am a novice writer , so will be much more comfortable reading than post what I hope turn out to be the rough stage of diamonds.

soaked up all comments, pleased to meet you all.

April.

[teacherayala]

Meliha, as another newbie I also can fully relate to the feelings you are having when you read a writing yet stop just short of attempting to write even the shortest of reviews. It applies to about all creative projects in my opinion. Somebody creates something they are proud of, they display it in front of others, of which many may be real knowledgeable experts, and we fear hurting their feelings because some of us figure they only want a pat on the back, and that is not what the rules say we are supposed to do in a review. My game plan is to at least get a bit of a feel for the writer and try to give them the level of review they ask for and I am capable of.

If it is a writer's very first time posting for review AND the author tells us that he/she is fragile and for us to take it easy, well I guess we can do that and safely not hurt their feelings. BUT, how much will such a newbie author learn from this? I see both sides. I do not like hurting people's feelings either, but sometimes we have to toughen up a little or we can never learn how to get better at our chosen craft. With Creativity the same type of logic seems to apply to a wide spectrum of art, such as writing a book (imho). Not everything is the same, of course, but the general idea of reviewing seems to work well for people in other creative arts as well.

I fully expect to get ripped by a review upon my first review-post. That is because I happen to be a guy of many hats, but a writer is the newest hat I have.... in other words I am about as "green" (new) as a writer can be.

I am 45. When I was in Tenth grade High School I once got an -A Plus- on a Creative Writing story I wrote in class. It was my first clue I could write anything well enough. We had 35 students in the class. I had a ripped faded jean jacket and a long hair image at the time and to my SHOCK the teacher picked MY paper to read to the class (what a shocker! I wanted to die, I mean I had worked soooo hard on my outlaw "Sweat-Hogg" image just to lose it all to that teacher trying to make me look good!), only for me to latter FLUNK the class because I was too stubborn to care about things called Verbs and Nouns. hahaha.

So people like me need a lot of help in proper use of word structure/grammar and spelling. However, like most here, I have my reasons for believing I have a shot at this. Once I post my work I will have to brace myself to offset my general emotional personality. I would think by the time most writers post their writings here for review that they must be to a point in which they feel they are well on the right track and are seeking help beyond all of their self done proof reading.

I can recall writing a paper over and over about a dozen times until I was SURE I had it perfect. I showed my girlfriend of the time and she found about ten mistakes on the first page!! :eek: Argh! As long as one words there review right, nobody should get offended by getting help at improving their writing skills. Anybody priced Creative Writing 101 for 13th Grade recently? It's more bang for your buck here!

We don't have to burn a person at a stake just to say the plot seems weak. Just like anything else, even being trained for the first day on a new job, We may make mistakes and get told more than once about the right way to do the job, but we should not take it personally, likely the boss is simply trying to train us on a timely bases and it's easy to take such comments personally.

Wow whenever I post my writings here everyone is going to think I just made up that story about tenth grade English class. lol

Terry
Speaking as a 10th grade English teacher, I can totally believe your story about 10th grade. I sometimes try and encourage the strengths of my students, but you're not the only one who is very creative and capable but stubborn as an adolescent. ;-) It's all part of the growing process, though, and look how you turned out! It's a pity your 10th grade English teacher couldn't be reading your post now!

[teacherayala]

As a part of this thread, I think that I've been a little reticent to post my stuff on the forum mostly because I like to think in the back of my mind that maybe it could be publishable one day. And should I choose to publish it, I don't want to have blown my chances because I've posted it here on the forum.

But I do have to say that I'm wishing people were a little more interactive in terms of giving feedback, especially when it comes to contests. There's really no reason why on this forum, which includes tons of members, only 10 people should be voting on the latest short story or poetry posts. It doesn't really mean much to win a contest when the voting pool was so small. Honestly, even if I lose, at least I would be challenged to win next time if I felt it was worth my time. So, since we're on this conversation, it would be great if everyone felt the need to get involved in reading, not just writing.

I realize that Trailer Trash is also saying that it's pointless to bother critiquing if people are going to be posting disorganized, barely self-edited stuff. If this is a deterrent for critiquing than we should be trying out best to post good stuff here, regardless of whether we consider it publishable or not.

I am saying this not to diss the forum, btw. I have found it very motivating to my writing and I have read some amazing critiques and feedback on here. It's well-organized and there are plenty of people who really seem to care about their writing and are committed to mentoring people as well.