Okay, some of you may recall I asked you for some style suggestions a few weeks back - this alternative style is still in the works, but I'd like your feedback on something else: blogs.

The software company that this forum is run on is currently creating an add-on that allows each user to have an individual blog.

Now, the catch is this: it's going to cost me a pretty penny, and to be honest, I don't want to purchase this feature unless it's going to be used.

So I ask you this: should we get blogs?

Added a poll.

I don't believe you should get the blog feature. You probably already spend enough on the site as is, and there are other ways members can acquire a blog if desired (LiveJournal, Blogger, et cetera).

Though you should use my idea to make the forum monochromatic blues.

I don't believe you should get the blog feature. You probably already spend enough on the site as is, and there are other ways members can acquire a blog if desired (LiveJournal, Blogger, et cetera).

Say that cost isn't an issue - do you still think it's a bad idea?

I don't it would be best to invest in it. There are only about a dozen or so members that have stayed here for a long time and are really active. Also, I believe that anything we really want to say can be said in either threads, private messaging, or some form of contact outside of the forums. When valuable information is posted on the forum, I feel that there is also a better chance of more people seeing it as well. As previously mentioned, there are plenty of blogging sites. If you really wanted to start a blogging community, how about adopting a site for the forum and creating a group?

Adamant is right. If there was no cost involved and you did it, only a small percentage would use it. It's honestly better to not waste the money, and perhaps provide a spot on the profile where members can link to an external blog. Well, that's my opinion at least.

what is a blog like?

Heather, I use a blog site as a sort of open diary. You can put in any information you like for others to read. It's like having your own web site. It can be a good way of making friends but can also lead to tears. It's a bit of fun really, for me that is.

As for linking one to here, I'd say no. There are so many blog sites out there and you already have enough on your plate with all you have here. If people want to read blog then I think that they'll go looking for it. Also, a lot of folks don't like it so may not want it thrust in their faces.

I do have this site linked to my blog though if that helps.

Heather, I use a blog site as a sort of open diary. You can put in any information you like for others to read. It's like having your own web site. It can be a good way of making friends but can also lead to tears. It's a bit of fun really, for me that is. oww cool. on another writing site i use they have a blog section, which a couple of the members use. i cannot really say just how effective it is as the site is little anyways. it is a good idea i think, but if it costs and that then i'd say just leave it for now. :)
Heather

I'm kinda surprised you guys don't really want it. hmmm... Anyone else have thoughts?

There are plenty of blogs on the net. I don't see the point of adding one to this site.

We already have a fine way of communicating our thoughts as writers.

I would personally love having a blog! This is a writing site, right? I understand we have many blogging sites out there, but then again: we have many writing forums and critique groups on web. Having your own blog here would have three main advantages: 1) When we'll write knowing we're writing here, we're write in a way which can be connective to the members here. 2)People might visit wf.org because of these blogs and our member percentage might increase. 3) The need of having your writer personality here and writing as much as possible is achievable through blogging.

Then again, majority is the authority.

I am not too sure myself if it would be a good idea or not. But when you think hard about it, to create a forum and have it successfully gain interest from members all the time, you need to offer something that no other forum offers.
I have seen forums offer comments that appear on your user profile, friend lists that everyone can view and also a list that shows you who has viewed your profile.
This is a rather large forum though. But it offers little things that no other forum I have joined offers and that is what members look for. Something other forum do not have.
Maybe the blogs would be good, maybe they would be bad. I don’t know, I have never used a blog before so I wouldn’t really know.
But I think that the forum does need something new and fresh for the members personally. I know it isn’t easy to think of new features to add to a forum to interest all members, but saying it is a bad idea because there are blog sites out there already is just silly. It is a bit like saying to Lpspider delete your forum cause there are other forums out there. (I don’t mean any offence by that)
But yeah that is my view on this topic anyways.
We need to offer something different to potential and existing members.

I would personally love having a blog! This is a writing site, right? I understand we have many blogging sites out there, but then again: we have many writing forums and critique groups on web. Having your own blog here would have three main advantages: 1) When we'll write knowing we're writing here, we're write in a way which can be connective to the members here. 2)People might visit wf.org because of these blogs and our member percentage might increase. 3) The need of having your writer personality here and writing as much as possible is achievable through blogging.

Then again, majority is the authority.

Personally, those were similar to my thoughts. I mean, while there are many blogging sites on the net, very few of these blogging sites will actually have the same members we have hear and with the option to connect so easily.

I'm not sure about #2 and #3, but they're good thoughts.

The blog could be a personal blog, a blog about writing, a blog posting your stories - whatever you want, really.

I'm still entirely open to feedback. :p

Why don't you try and get people to join a group on another blogging site, and see how successful that is? If people like that element, then maybe you can get one of your own.

I realize that some feel as though if you don't want blogs because of the myriad of other others, why is it any different with the forum. The thing is, we came here because of the forum and its atmosphere -- a unique trait -- and a including a blog doesn't do much for us (and if we came looking for a blog, it would be the opposite). We can say just about anything we want to each other with what we currently have. Also, those of you that would want to venture into others' lives on this forum more-than-likely already talk to those specific persons through other means.

I can think of a few good reasons for having site run blogs, but I can also think of reasons they'd just be redundant (the oft mentioned "they're everywhere" mainly) I think the best solution (especially for your wallet) would be to have an external blog site set up into a user group or whateverthey'recalled.

I think the best way to use blogs (beyond the usual crying about life and pouring out secret thoughts or whatever people do with diaries) is to use them like in a Middle School marble composition book, where the mods give out a writing prompt every day. Without the horrible grades you'd get if you didn't do it.:p

i would quite like to see a blog put on here, but i would hate to see it not being used and a waste of money. but yea, think i would use it if it was put on. :)
Heather

Slit pretty evenly, eh? hmm...

I don't really have much of an opinion on the whole issue, I wouldn't use the blogs to make my own but i'd read other peoples'.

The off-site blogs are probably a bad idea because we couldn't moderate them...

Thought I would give you my opinion. Blogs exist. Whether it's here, on blogger, or livejournal, or myspace or a personal website. If money is no expense then I see no problem offering it. People on this forum, either take you up on the offer or they don't.

How many of you who read this thread and answered it actually have a blog? I know I do.

I don't have a blog myself, but I do read a lot of blogs. So if people on here used the feature to write a blog, i'd use the feature to read them.

That makes sense in my mind...

Why not. If you have the hardware, the bandwidth, and the inclination to do it. I think it's a good idea.

Not withstanding the cost involved, it would be an added feature to attract writers to this site. An all-in-one package if you will. A journal of sorts to track or thoughts . I know a lot of times I get ideas or learn something just by browing the forums. The blog would be cool just to have a place to jot em down as I'm browing.

Plus, the forums are great but the blog gives you a little more personal flexibility with your posts. You could post your stuff on your blog if you wanted and just start a thread with a link asking for reviews.

From a technology standpoint it might be a pain to manage or implement, but it might be cool to tinker with.

Have you played with Moveable type? That is another option. Don't know what you are running this site on, as I have not dug around to find out server info or any of that, but movable type is a great piece of software to manage multiple blogs and really easy to set up on a unix-linux platform. Or even windows if you are running apache. Not sure how you would integrate it here though. so the plug-in might be a better option.

I know you are paying for this but have you looked into open source stuff like phpbb?

Anyhow, I think the blog would be a great idea. The only concern you may want to look at is future traffic. Look at what your hardware is now and decide if it can handle the traffic load of this site and a blogging utility or if you will need to upgrade the hardware.

Just a thought from an IT guy's perspective.

I would use it. Blogs are about the only thing I write anymore that I finish. Haha, maybe I should start writing stories in diary format. Then maybe I wouldn't get sick of them three pages in. :p

But yeah, I like the idea. I know I would use it, and I would like to read other members' blogs as well.

Just an update - we will be getting blogs. ;) Look for them within a few weeks.

personally, i don't really get the point of blogs... the only time i've ever bothered to read one, was when my friend was in singapore serving army time.

otherwise... i wouldn't use it as i don't think people will be interesting in what happens in my life..

what else do you blog about??

personally, i don't really get the point of blogs... the only time i've ever bothered to read one, was when my friend was in singapore serving army time.

otherwise... i wouldn't use it as i don't think people will be interesting in what happens in my life..

what else do you blog about??

Well the blogs on here will be networked together with the current user ids, so it's much more easy to comment on each other and such.

You could blog about whatever you want. It can be your personal blog, but you could also make it a blog on anything. Some might, considering the topic of this site, decide to make a blog based on writing (i.e. tips and advice).

I'd produce some of my uninformed opinions and vague waffle about writing on a blog, if such a thing were available. So you might want to avoid giving me one. :)

I fail to see what a blog will do that isn't covered between the Lounge, the User Notes, and the writings each member produces.

This is a writers' web site. If we try to be all things to all people, we will lose focus. As it is, we've found that it's easy to lose focus in the Lounge and the Word Games.

Getting to know one another is beneficial, and important. But this is still a forum for writing, and most of the activities should be directed toward improving writing and exercising creativity.

Cogito I think that blogs would be a great idea to be honest. I don't know if I would use them but I know that there are a few people around here that would and I use one on another writing forum that I moderate and actually find it rather good to be honest.
I don't think that it willl make people lose focus at all, but it could encourage people to not post up ridiculous threads in the lounge that really have nothing to do with anything other than the fact that the person was bored.
There are a lot of advantages to blogging. I think that the forum may just benefit from and addition and it is always good to see a forum change and grow.

This is a writers' web site. If we try to be all things to all people, we will lose focus. As it is, we've found that it's easy to lose focus in the Lounge and the Word Games.

Current post count in total: 85,282

Top five forums by post count:

Word Games 28,704 (33.6%)
The Lounge 20,986 (24.6%)
Poetry 8,352 (9.7%) <--- actually about writing
New Member Introductions 5,864 (6.8%)
Short Stories 3,659 (4.2%) <--- actually about writing

(This is a gross oversimplification, of course. If we ranked the posts by word-count rather than simply by number, I think we'd find that there are a whole lot more words in the "short story" forum compared to the "word games" because word games are usually quickie little posts. I know the analysis is flawed, as are most analyses; it does help highlight my point.)

We're good at welcoming people, and we're good at giving them entertaining and social things to do while they aren't writing.

So good, in fact, that what we have is a site that's primarily not about writing. It's a site for people who self-identify as writers, but don't seem to post very much actual writing.

And what they do post is quite often unfinished, unedited first drafts. I don't think you can usefully critique such a thing; and I think the reason it's posted is usually a quest for validation. I suspect the poster wants to hear: "Yes, don't worry, this is fine, it's worth finishing."

For the critiquer, this is like looking at a foetus and trying to decide if it'll grow up to be a genius or a normal human being or a drooling moron.

But blogs could help change that, provided they were basically about writing.

I think it would be nice to have part of the blogs devoted to goal-attainment. Perhaps something you could write in the sidebar, like:

Progress through novel: 50,000/90,000 words
Short stories finished this month: 3
Short stories sold this month: 1
Target next month: 2,000 words a day

... or something similar.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Weaselword. If the bogs are given a writing tilt, then they could be very beneficial.

Those statistics are in fact connected to the problem. They reinforce the perception that this is not a writing site. There is an ongoing effort to nudge members back toward the writing-related segments of the site.

But the statistics are indeed skewed. Word games, as you point out, are generally posts of few words, as are most of the threads in the Lounge. But the posts in the Review Room, even the poetry postings, tend to be quite a bit longer. We also have quite a few forums that fall outside of the top five, that either contain writing or address writing issues. The way the forum statistics are partitioned deemphasize their significance.

There will always be a certain quantity of writing that is posted without having been proofread or revised, and some of it will be from writers looking for approval and validation rather than a critique. But that is also why we emphasize learning to critique, so that writers can learn to do a better job preparing their work for viewing and reviewing. We still have our share of new arrivals who slap down the required number of perfunctory reviews just so they can post their masterpieces for thunderous applause, then leave when the applause doesn't come. Of course, they don't consider that members are fully aware of what they are doing, and tend not to put much effort into reviewing under those circumstances.

What I don't see is how blogs address these issues. What makes blogs superior to the focus forums or the virtually unused User Notes in that regard? What keeps them from simply becoming another distraction?

Perhaps I am missing some crucial quality of blogs that makes them superior for the purpose. I am not much of a blogger, so I certainly may be unaware of unique advantages of blogs.

Don't you mean BLOGS Banzai and not BOGS lol :p:p:p:p

What I don't see is how blogs address these issues. What makes blogs superior to the focus forums or the virtually unused User Notes in that regard? What keeps them from simply becoming another distraction?

Perhaps I am missing some crucial quality of blogs that makes them superior for the purpose. I am not much of a blogger, so I certainly may be unaware of unique advantages of blogs.

In all honesty, blogs and the writing-relatedness of this site don't have any direct correlation. However, if people used the blogs for writing related topics, I think it does have potential to create more of a writer's atmosphere.

The usernotes, IMO, simply don't cut it. They're to primitive and standalone to be compared to blogs. Perhaps they will simply become another distraction. Perhaps not. But I think it's worth the chance. Honestly, it's a bit of experiment. I'm curious to see how it affects the site, if at all. If nothing else, I think it will do at least something to help distinguish this site from others.

To tell the truth, I just tried the User Notes feature for the first time a few minutes ago. I think I successfully added one, but I'll be damned if I can find a way to view my user notes, much less see anyone else's.

Well I was just able to view what you had put in your user notes Cogito. Just so you know is all.

What are these usernotes of which you speak?

There will always be a certain quantity of writing that is posted without having been proofread or revised, and some of it will be from writers looking for approval and validation rather than a critique. But that is also why we emphasize learning to critique, so that writers can learn to do a better job preparing their work for viewing and reviewing. We still have our share of new arrivals who slap down the required number of perfunctory reviews just so they can post their masterpieces for thunderous applause, then leave when the applause doesn't come. Of course, they don't consider that members are fully aware of what they are doing, and tend not to put much effort into reviewing under those circumstances.

Well, let's take that apart and see where you're going with it.

There's this thread, which I encountered when I first posted on the site:

Writing Forums (http://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=4705)

It says why critique. It doesn't say how to critique. The reviewer's left needing to come up with their own formula.

Some go through line by line looking for typos. Some post their general impressions of the piece; some just post "yeah, I liked it" because they think they ought to post something.

Maybe it would help to come up with a review template.

For prose fiction, that might look like:

OPENING --

Does the opening of the piece draw you in? Why?

TECHNICAL ISSUES --

Comment on viewpoint (first person, third person limited, third person omniscient, other) and transitions between viewpoints.

Comment on language and vocabulary. Is the spelling and grammar up to snuff? Are any sentences too long or too short? Is the vocabulary simple and clear, or does the piece possess the verisimilitude of extreme edification? Is the dialogue formatted correctly?

CHARACTERISATION --

Are the characters well-drawn? Does their dialogue ring true? Are any of them trite or cliche? Do the characters change or evolve during the story?

STRUCTURE --

Does the piece have a beginning, a middle and an end with at least one significant event to narrate? Are there any passages that don't support the plot? (If so, do they show character, elaborate on the theme or serve some other useful purpose?)

Where are the scene transitions? Could any of the scenes be deleted? Are important scenes left unwritten?

(And so on; you can surely see where I'm coming from!)

That way we'll probably get fewer reviews. But I know that I'd think harder about the reviews I write and they'd be more helpful to the author.

Actually if anyone had noticed in the creation forum under short stories there is a sticky with a link to a decent guide to critique for short stories and novels as well I think.

Here is the link to the thread.

Hardcore Critique Guidelines - Writing Forums (http://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=4645)

I should know as I posted the link there myself. And there was one placed in the Lyrics forum and one in the creation forum for poetry as well I am fairly certain, but there is already a simple guide in there to poetry critque if people simply look.

What are these usernotes of which you speak?

They are a feature of the forum software, but they seem to have some serious usability flaws, so it's probably best to avoid them.

Apparently everyone except the author can view them once they are created, and the author can neither edit nor delete them.

Actually if anyone had noticed in the creation forum under short stories there is a sticky with a link to a decent guide to critique for short stories and novels as well I think.

My bad--I missed that.

Apologies.

Well, let's take that apart and see where you're going with it.

There's this thread, which I encountered when I first posted on the site:

Writing Forums (http://www.writingforums.org/showthread.php?t=4705)

It says why critique. It doesn't say how to critique. The reviewer's left needing to come up with their own formula.

Some go through line by line looking for typos. Some post their general impressions of the piece; some just post "yeah, I liked it" because they think they ought to post something.

There is also this (http://www.writingforums.org/announcement.php?f=19) which suggests the topics to cover in a review.

Maybe it would help to come up with a review template.

For prose fiction, that might look like:

OPENING --

Does the opening of the piece draw you in? Why?

TECHNICAL ISSUES --

Comment on viewpoint (first person, third person limited, third person omniscient, other) and transitions between viewpoints.

Comment on language and vocabulary. Is the spelling and grammar up to snuff? Are any sentences too long or too short? Is the vocabulary simple and clear, or does the piece possess the verisimilitude of extreme edification? Is the dialogue formatted correctly?

CHARACTERISATION --

Are the characters well-drawn? Does their dialogue ring true? Are any of them trite or cliche? Do the characters change or evolve during the story?

STRUCTURE --

Does the piece have a beginning, a middle and an end with at least one significant event to narrate? Are there any passages that don't support the plot? (If so, do they show character, elaborate on the theme or serve some other useful purpose?)

Where are the scene transitions? Could any of the scenes be deleted? Are important scenes left unwritten?

(And so on; you can surely see where I'm coming from!)

That way we'll probably get fewer reviews. But I know that I'd think harder about the reviews I write and they'd be more helpful to the author.

Believe it or not, we're working on a system that will actually eerily similar to what you have just outlined. It will have the fields such as Spelling/Punctuation/Grammar, Plot, Characterization, etc by default.

As for the usernotes, I made some changes to them.

You must also think about the difference in effort it takes to respond in those different areas... then the fact that not all people write stories/poetry... etc. Though I get the point.

Let's see how it looks when it appears. I doubt any part of the template will be mandatory, but it will serve as a reminder or checklist when posting reviews.

I personally tend to focus on different aspects depending on the condition of the work being reviewed - if it needs major work for SPAG, I usually concentrate on that rather than on narrative flow. On the other hand, if the overall structure of the story is where the bulk of the work needs to be done, there's not much benefit in pointing out word usage issues or missing commas that probably won't survive the revision.

There is a fundamental concept in communication, that human beings do not absorb more than 3-5 major points well at a time. It is better to limit the focus of a review to the 3-5 areas that can result in the greatest improvement. Regardless of the template that is adopted, I will continue to follow that principal when writing reviews.

In any event, reviewing is every bit as creative as writing. The mindset is different, but as with writing, reviewing is a continual learning process. As with writing, you learn by looking at the reviews written by others, and then practicing with reviews of your own. For that reason, I have some reservations over how effective any template can be, but I will keep an open mind.

Its strange 12 on the voters poll are for it and 8 against and 4 are unsure. Hmmmm

I would say unsure is a fair assumption. Myself I’m not sure what to make of Blogs. I've never been drawn into the idea. But then I have my own website.

However. WF.org is growing everyday and the number of regulars visiting day by day is growing. And the number of members is really growing. The site has potential. And in another year I think we will equal WF.com. if not we'll not be far behind.

I think the blogs would be a good strength and a great idea for each individual member to use.

But Cost wise, well there’s the problem the site is worth the effort in my opinion, but the question you need to think about is how deep are you prepared to go in those pockets.
This is a really good community here.

But we all have lives and some of us are getting busier and busier including you Daniel the older you get the busier life becomes. Though now you will always have a regular set of members visiting daily though the names may change the site will retain those regulars. The question you have to consider is this forum a hobby or are you hoping to turn it into big things.

I enjoy expressing my thoughts and feelings in blogs, but find I often say or reveal too much about myself in them and end up deleting what I've written which is why I said 'unsure'.

On a writing forum I would probably be more inclined to use one, but I've never enjoyed using them on other sites.

Well in fairness we're a little different here. We have a good community who work together for bigger goals. And on forums thats very rare indeed.

Well, that's exactly my point :) I would be more inclined to use one here than on another, less 'intimate' site.