View Full Version : Friend gave hurtful advice. Thoughts, please?
Okay, so I sent a trusted friend of mine what I had so far for my Sci-Fi short story entry. I normally don't ask people to critique my work so maybe I'm just overreacting to what he said, but the 'advice' he gave me was very hurtful and I don't know what I should do/think? I'm crushed because I trusted him. I've known him for over ten years and he's always been honest with me. He's also an avid reader and even has a Masters in English, so it's not like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
He basically said that it sounds like I'm "trying too hard to write well" and that he got the impression I was "constantly trying to dress up my writing instead of actually just writing well". He also said that my style was distracting him from the story.
His 'advice' is that I stop writing the way I do and just completely change the way I write. Obviously not his exact words, but the message that I got.
I know that I'm supposed to have a tough skin. I was prepared for constructive criticism, but I feel like he basically told me I can't write at all and that all the work I've done so far to get to where I'm at now (skill level wise) was a waste of time.
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Sorry for the crybaby novel. What I'm trying to ask is how would you react/take his advice?
Absolutely never think the work you've done is a waste of time! It never is.
Did he offer any concrete suggestions for improvements? Or was it all general comments?
If the former, I'd look at them on a case-by-case basis: see if you think he has a point or not, if you can take something on board to implement into your work, or not. Any review will be subjective. Try to separate his opinions from the 'facts'.
Thank you for the prompt reply. He did give me some usable advice, mostly SPaG related stuff that I did agree with. I don't know about the other comments though. I feel like I've been slapped in the face. It just hurts to believe that someone I trust could possibly feel that way about my writing. I never claimed to be good, but now I just feel like my stuff is complete crap.
eXpendable
01-29-2012, 06:09 AM
Don't start an argument, doesn't seem worth it. It sounds like he was genuinely trying to be helpful, but just didn't realize that he was perhaps being slightly insensitive. Something that is easily forgivable. You should just have a chat with him, let him know that you were taken aback by his critique and want some more pointers on how to improve. Defend your writing style but don't be closed off to any of his suggestions; as you said yourself, he is a Master. I think you have maybe over-reacted a little, as would anyone presented with that I guess, I think what he's trying to get at is that you need to spend more time reviewing your writing.
Melzaar the Almighty
01-29-2012, 06:15 AM
I guess even though I take writing itself very seriously I am pretty casual with the criticism I receive. Most people tell me exactly what I was thinking anyway, because I'm quite harsh on some aspects of my writing, so it makes it easier for me to hear when they say it because I have already been thinking it for some time and just feeling too lazy to try and improve it before I send it out for critique. (bad practice, I know: if I cleaned up my stories better I'd hear more of what I need to hear :P) The rest I don't let get to me, because what am I even meant to do with it?
Something like that is such a big and general piece of criticism it's hard to even know where to begin, which is why I would dismiss it and want to concentrate on smaller things. You can't just tell someone their whole approach to writing sucks: you have to nurture them through it step by step, pointing out the individual errors they make and hoping that as they learn the small improvements lead to bigger improvements which shape the piece as a whole to not be so bad. It is just not helpful to say something like that.
Your friend, though, I'm sure didn't mean to hurt you. He probably thought you were a strong person who was serious about your writing and could take any critique levelled at you. The fact he gave rubbish criticism with no help attached is his problem. :P But don't let it get you down. People who just tell you to make broad changes without offering in detail advice to follow on how to improve don't know what they're talking about. Maybe he just didn't get on with your writing style and other people will? It happens. He just made it sound like it was a fault in your writing, when in fact most people have at least one brilliant renowned writer that they cannot get into and hate the style of. "But it just looks like he mashed words together on the page!" they wail, against the sound of millions of admirers.
My advice is to get a couple of second opinions. If they all say similar, maybe someone will say something helpful too. Or maybe some of them will actually think it's quite good. >_<
Don't start an argument, doesn't seem worth it. It sounds like he was genuinely trying to be helpful, but just didn't realize that he was perhaps being slightly insensitive. Something that is easily forgivable. You should just have a chat with him, let him know that you were taken aback by his critique and want some more pointers on how to improve. Defend your writing style but don't be closed off to any of his suggestions; as you said yourself, he is a Master. I think you have maybe over-reacted a little, as would anyone presented with that I guess, I think what he's trying to get at is that you need to spend more time reviewing your writing.
Thank you for your reply.
I don't plan on starting an argument because he's still a good friend. I guess I was just really shocked by the advice he gave me and am still trying to make some sense out of it. It's never crossed my mind that my writing could come across that way, and now I'm wondering if that's really the way I write and if other people in the past (teachers, friends) were just too afraid to tell me? I feel very confused and kind of self conscious about my writing now.
I did ask him what about my writing made him feel that way and he told me the entire thing I sent him was an example. I'll give it a few days and ask him to elaborate once I've cooled off a little I guess...
I guess even though I take writing itself very seriously I am pretty casual with the criticism I receive. Most people tell me exactly what I was thinking anyway, because I'm quite harsh on some aspects of my writing, so it makes it easier for me to hear when they say it because I have already been thinking it for some time and just feeling too lazy to try and improve it before I send it out for critique. (bad practice, I know: if I cleaned up my stories better I'd hear more of what I need to hear :P) The rest I don't let get to me, because what am I even meant to do with it?
Something like that is such a big and general piece of criticism it's hard to even know where to begin, which is why I would dismiss it and want to concentrate on smaller things. You can't just tell someone their whole approach to writing sucks: you have to nurture them through it step by step, pointing out the individual errors they make and hoping that as they learn the small improvements lead to bigger improvements which shape the piece as a whole to not be so bad. It is just not helpful to say something like that.
Your friend, though, I'm sure didn't mean to hurt you. He probably thought you were a strong person who was serious about your writing and could take any critique levelled at you. The fact he gave rubbish criticism with no help attached is his problem. :P But don't let it get you down. People who just tell you to make broad changes without offering in detail advice to follow on how to improve don't know what they're talking about. Maybe he just didn't get on with your writing style and other people will? It happens. He just made it sound like it was a fault in your writing, when in fact most people have at least one brilliant renowned writer that they cannot get into and hate the style of. "But it just looks like he mashed words together on the page!" they wail, against the sound of millions of admirers.
My advice is to get a couple of second opinions. If they all say similar, maybe someone will say something helpful too. Or maybe some of them will actually think it's quite good. >_<
You're probably right. I think what really threw me off guard is that it's never crossed my mind before that my writing could seem that way to another person. I never thought my writing was perfect, but a flaw like that is so huge. How could I have missed it? Why hasn't anyone ever told me about it before?
I am considering having some other people read the same sample now just to see if they feel the same way. I definitely want to improve if that's the case but gosh, if what he said is true I wouldn't even know where to start with all of it.
If my writing seems fine to other people, it would still suck that the one really experienced writer I know in "real life" hates it. I guess that'd be my luck though, lol...
Thanks so much for your reply.
shadowwalker
01-29-2012, 08:49 AM
It does sound a little like you were expecting more praise, rather than what you got. And I didn't think the comments were really hurtful - he gave you what you asked for. What I hear him saying is that you're over-writing - ie, trying too hard to write a great book instead of just telling the story. That would mean at worst, a revision - like no writer does that! ;)
Cogito
01-29-2012, 09:02 AM
It isn't a constructive critique, because it tells you nothing about what may have been wrong with the writing or what specific things you can do to fix it.
Your friend is probably not a writer, so probably has no clue why he didn't like what he read. If you think he does have enough writing, ask him nicely if he can be a little more specific. Otherwise, your best bet is probably to drop it and accept that for whatever reason, your writing did not work for your friend.
Never take a critique personally. Even if it were deliberately mean spirited, you might be able to get some specifics that would help you make positive changes. At worst, you get nothing, and lose nothing.
twelveninetysix
01-29-2012, 09:13 AM
Definitely don't take it to heart. If he'd been more specific, for example "I think your metaphors are too cliché" or "you need to expand more on the emotion" or something similar, then fair enough, it's his opinion and you need to decide if you care enough to change it. But as it is, it sounds like the style doesn't really work for him personally, which means absolutely nothing because, trust me, it's impossible to keep everyone happy. Either ask him to elaborate or just move on and find someone else who likes your style so they can give you more specific criticism :)
It does sound a little like you were expecting more praise, rather than what you got. And I didn't think the comments were really hurtful - he gave you what you asked for. What I hear him saying is that you're over-writing - ie, trying too hard to write a great book instead of just telling the story. That would mean at worst, a revision - like no writer does that! ;)
Hello, thank you for your reply.
I wasn't really expecting praise. That would've been awesome, but I was expecting his advice to be more helpful. I wish he had just said "you're over-writing" because that would've been a heck of a lot nicer than what/how he said what he did. Who knows, maybe I am oversensitive. Maybe I did take his comments the wrong way. It's just he didn't give me the impression that I just needed to revise. I felt like he was just telling me writing style sucked, period, and that I should re-learn how to write.
mammamaia
01-29-2012, 09:15 AM
I feel like he basically told me I can't write at all and that all the work I've done so far to get to where I'm at now (skill level wise) was a waste of time.
that's not what i got from what you said he told you... i have said much the same thing to many of my mentees who seem to be trying so hard to sound 'smart' or 'literary' that they make little sense, and/or their work doesn't read well... the difference is that i provide examples, so they'd get what i was referring to and could know how to work on correcting the problem...
you may have taken what was said the wrong way and are perhaps too sensitive to accept what may be sad, but true about your writing style, or he could be wrong... why don't you post an excerpt from what you sent him here, so we can let you know if he was at all right, or totally out of line?
love and consoling hugs, maia
It isn't a constructive critique, because it tells you nothing about what may have been wrong with the writing or what specific things you can do to fix it.
Your friend is probably not a writer, so probably has no clue why he didn't like what he read. If you think he does have enough writing, ask him nicely if he can be a little more specific. Otherwise, your best bet is probably to drop it and accept that for whatever reason, your writing did not work for your friend.
Never take a critique personally. Even if it were deliberately mean spirited, you might be able to get some specifics that would help you make positive changes. At worst, you get nothing, and lose nothing.
Hello. Thanks so much for taking the time to comment.
He's studying with the hopes of becoming an English professor so he does love to read, but I guess I wouldn't really consider him a serious writer so that may be true. From what I know he mostly writes academic papers. Either way though, you're right. I need to just learn how to distinguish between a constructive and unusable critique, and develop a thicker skin. On the bright side, I thought for sure his comments would make me MORE afraid of getting critiques but it's actually having the opposite effect. I now want to show more people and get more opinions.
Definitely don't take it to heart. If he'd been more specific, for example "I think your metaphors are too cliché" or "you need to expand more on the emotion" or something similar, then fair enough, it's his opinion and you need to decide if you care enough to change it. But as it is, it sounds like the style doesn't really work for him personally, which means absolutely nothing because, trust me, it's impossible to keep everyone happy. Either ask him to elaborate or just move on and find someone else who likes your style so they can give you more specific criticism :)
Hi there. Thank you for being so sweet.
Everyone here has been so patient and understanding and I am starting to feel much better. I am definitely going to ask him to be more specific with me, or at least to elaborate more on his opinion... but regardless of what he says, I'm going to try and get my work out there more and see what other people have to say about my writing. If he just doesn't dig it, then fine. Hopefully other people will. If he is right though, then I've learned a valuable lesson.
that's not what i got from what you said he told you... i have said much the same thing to many of my mentees who seem to be trying so hard to sound 'smart' or 'literary' that they make little sense, and/or their work doesn't read well... the difference is that i provide examples, so they'd get what i was referring to and could know how to work on correcting the problem...
you may have taken what was said the wrong way and are perhaps too sensitive to accept what may be sad, but true about your writing style, or he could be wrong... why don't you post an excerpt from what you sent him here, so we can let you know if he was at all right, or totally out of line?
love and consoling hugs, maia
Hello. Thank you for your sweet comment.
I really wish he had been more specific and detailed. Instead he just pretty much said, "You need to learn how to write, all of this is written very badly" and expected me to get it. Idk, I guess because of his schooling he's used to proofreading papers and maybe expected me to react the same way his other classmates would. Oh well, I'm getting over it now and just want to work on the problem.
And I'll post the first two paragraphs. I would post more but this is an excerpt from my contest entry. Sorry if there are a lot of errors. He's the only person so far I've showed any of my work to.
The newborn’s deafening cry sent a reverberating echo throughout The Swan’s dark and empty halls. A dim artificial light and the occasional blinking of computer diodes illuminated the small, chemical smelling room and reflected dully off of the cold hard surfaces of the science laboratory’s medical apparatus. There was nothing warm or welcoming about this place. But of course how could it be? This space vessel belonged to LEDA (the Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation), and more specifically, this was Dr. Valerie Adler’s lab.
An attractive and unemotional blonde-haired woman in a white lab coat was carefully and tensely examining a small baby boy with a flashlight in her left hand and a blunt prodding tool in the right. The room had become silent again except for the scientist’s steady breathing and the rhythmic beeping of health monitors. When she appeared to be confident with the information she’d gathered, she discarded the flashlight and tool and peeled off the latex gloves. Everything seemed to be going according to plan.
twelveninetysix
01-29-2012, 10:22 AM
Hmm. It doesn't seem so abhorrently terrible to me :') The actual points of interest you picked up on are spot on, however personally I'd try and cut down on the adjectives a little. Definitely I'd never use more than one at any given point and sometimes cut it out together - instead, try and choose a noun/verb that more wholly describes what you want.
For example "A newborn's deafening cry sent a reverberating echo". Whilst "cry" doesn't really imply that it's deafening, it still implies that it's loud. If the loudness it really important, you could call it a "scream" instead. Similarly, the word "reverberating" is somewhat redundant because that is what echo's do. You could say the echo "reverberated through the dark and empty halls" if you really wanted to, although in that case it might be simpler to just say it that it "bounced". Alternatively, if it's important that the cry is really deafening, you could say instead that "the newborn's cry echoed deafeningly throughout The Swan's dark and empty halls."
Some details and descriptions are spot on, for example the "steady breathing and rhythmic beeping" are useful and interesting because they tell us that the scientist is calm and not flustered. However some details can be inferred. The description of her as "attractive" is fine because we didn't know that, but "unemotional" is less important - we can infer it from what you said about her workplace and to be frank, the fact that she is experimenting on a newborn child. If you wanted to you could say later on, for example, "...a blunt prodding tool in her right, her face an emotionless mask," or mention the fact that her manner is "professional" or something similar.
That's a lot to think on and it sounds pretty harsh, but only because I'm really focusing on the negative side of things here in order to try and unravel what your friend might have intended. There are some great ideas here, for example, mentioning LEDA is a detail that might have bored the reader, but it works because the name "Lunar Engineering Department of Adaption" draws you in and makes you wonder how it relates to a newborn child. Some of what I've said is pretty standard writing technique but some of it, again, comes down to opinion, so take from it what you will. I'm certainly looking forward to reading more about this experiment.
twelveninetysix, thank you SO much. I don't think you were being harsh at all and I'm actually relieved that I finally got some detailed help. I'm looking through the rest of my story and do notice that I can be a little redundant, and I definitely overuse adjectives.
Also, the reason I mentioned she was unemotional is because a little later in the same story the reader learns that the child is actually hers (not really a spoiler). I think I will take your advice with the emotionless mask though. Also, the LEDA thing is in reference to the little boy--whose name is Castor. In Greek mythology Castor is the child of Zeus and Leda. There's a reason for all of this that is revealed much later, but for the sake of my draft I threw it in in hopes that I'd find a better place for the info dump later.
Overall your review has helped me a lot. I have a lot of things to think about.
minstrel
01-29-2012, 11:53 AM
I agree, pretty much, with twelveninetysix. You use a lot of adjectives and adverbs, and that does make it look like you're trying too hard. That's what your friend probably meant. Also, you might try to work the "Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation" in a little more naturally, rather than just sticking in there in parentheses.
Also, not to get too technical, but I'd change "computer diodes" to LEDs, or simply indicator lights. Most diodes don't blink; only light-emitting ones do.
And if I were you, I'd look up a proper medical term for the "blunt prodding tool" she uses on the baby. A surgeon wouldn't make an incision with a "sharp cutting tool", he'd use a scalpel. You get the idea.
Keep going, though. I'm interested in your story!
shadowwalker
01-29-2012, 12:02 PM
Just from these two paragraphs, it sounds like an intriguing story, and I'd probably want to read further. But I agree that some of the descriptions are unnecessary. To go a bit further on the baby's crying, for instance, if you say it echoed you don't even need "empty" halls. It wouldn't echo if they weren't empty.
On the other end of the spectrum - "a blunt prodding tool" sounds like you really didn't know yourself what it was. It could be long and thin (like an unsharpened pencil) or short and stubby (like a thimble). Was it metal? Electronic? The same with "chemical smelling room" (which, btw, should be "chemical-smelling", otherwise the room is smelling chemicals) and "laboratory’s medical apparatus". What kind of chemical smell was it? Sweet? Acrid? Was do you mean by apparatus? A table? A machine? I'm not able to picture these in my head at all.
Middle ground ;) - "When she appeared to be confident with the information she’d gathered" - how did that manifest itself? Did she smile? Nod? Narrow her eyes? Sigh? Do a little jiggle? This is one of the places to remember the "show don't tell" thing, and give us a little more insight into this woman (more than being told she's attractive, blonde, and unemotional).
I'd also cut those long sentences into shorter ones - it not only makes it easier to read but builds the tension level.
Hard (if not impossible) to judge a story by the first two paragraphs, but I do get an inkling of what your friend might have meant. The atmosphere/tension builders are just a tad too much, and if the story continued in that vein, it would get a bit hard to read. But if you can work on those descriptions - get rid of some, adjust others - and try to let the mechanics do a little more of the atmospheric work, it could alleviate some of the problems I'm seeing here.
I agree, pretty much, with twelveninetysix. You use a lot of adjectives and adverbs, and that does make it look like you're trying too hard. That's what your friend probably meant. Also, you might try to work the "Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation" in a little more naturally, rather than just sticking in there in parentheses.
Also, not to get too technical, but I'd change "computer diodes" to LEDs, or simply indicator lights. Most diodes don't blink; only light-emitting ones do.
And if I were you, I'd look up a proper medical term for the "blunt prodding tool" she uses on the baby. A surgeon wouldn't make an incision with a "sharp cutting tool", he'd use a scalpel. You get the idea.
Keep going, though. I'm interested in your story!
Thank you very much for your honest opinion. I admit I have a lot of work to do in regards to the moving stuff around and cutting stuff out, but it definitely helps to get another writer's input. Your critique is a lot easier to accept and is more specific than my friend's.
Just from these two paragraphs, it sounds like an intriguing story, and I'd probably want to read further. But I agree that some of the descriptions are unnecessary. To go a bit further on the baby's crying, for instance, if you say it echoed you don't even need "empty" halls. It wouldn't echo if they weren't empty.
On the other end of the spectrum - "a blunt prodding tool" sounds like you really didn't know yourself what it was. It could be long and thin (like an unsharpened pencil) or short and stubby (like a thimble). Was it metal? Electronic? The same with "chemical smelling room" (which, btw, should be "chemical-smelling", otherwise the room is smelling chemicals) and "laboratory’s medical apparatus". What kind of chemical smell was it? Sweet? Acrid? Was do you mean by apparatus? A table? A machine? I'm not able to picture these in my head at all.
Middle ground ;) - "When she appeared to be confident with the information she’d gathered" - how did that manifest itself? Did she smile? Nod? Narrow her eyes? Sigh? Do a little jiggle? This is one of the places to remember the "show don't tell" thing, and give us a little more insight into this woman (more than being told she's attractive, blonde, and unemotional).
I'd also cut those long sentences into shorter ones - it not only makes it easier to read but builds the tension level.
Hard (if not impossible) to judge a story by the first two paragraphs, but I do get an inkling of what your friend might have meant. The atmosphere/tension builders are just a tad too much, and if the story continued in that vein, it would get a bit hard to read. But if you can work on those descriptions - get rid of some, adjust others - and try to let the mechanics do a little more of the atmospheric work, it could alleviate some of the problems I'm seeing here.
Hello. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and critique my writing. Everyone, including yourself, has been EXTREMELY helpful and I really can't thank anyone enough. I feel much better and the critique is actually helpful and easy to understand. You've really helped me zone in on where my problem areas are (where I'm over-describing, where I'm being redundant or repetitive, where I'm slacking, etc). Suddenly my friend's 'advice' makes sense, and doesn't make me all sad. :)
On a lighter note, I laughed at the bold text. That's very good to know.
Dandroid
01-29-2012, 12:21 PM
it's funny...we tend to put stuff out there (writing-wise) as if we have somehow arrived at our final form...and then people sometimes critique as if we have to have arrived as well...the entire process is a journey...boo! cliche!...but it's true...i laugh at the things i put together through my twenties and suspect that when i reach forty i will do the same for the stuff i am producing now...however...that is okay...i still treat my current work as if it is ready for the big leagues, and know that i can only improve...
it's funny...we tend to put stuff out there (writing-wise) as if we have somehow arrived at our final form...and then people sometimes critique as if we have to have arrived as well...the entire process is a journey...boo! cliche!...but it's true...i laugh at the things i put together through my twenties and suspect that when i reach forty i will do the same for the stuff i am producing now...however...that is okay...i still treat my current work as if it is ready for the big leagues, and know that i can only improve...
Hello there. :)
I definitely agree that it's a journey and learning process. I'm always learning something new--if not about my writing, then about myself. Even if the process sometimes makes me want to rip my hair out or throw my computer out the window, haha. :) But it's always good to learn, just like you said.
CH878
01-29-2012, 12:58 PM
I can actually relate to what you're feeling. I gave a piece of my work to a trusted friend to review (he's got equal if not better literary skills than me) and all he could say was that it wasn't long enough and was far too fast paced. The problem is, they look at it from a reader's point of view, not a writer's, so you have to do a bit of interpretation, and also remember it's far easier for people to be bluntly critical than constructive.
As for the extract you provided, I'd really just echo what other people have said. It just gives the impression it was written as a piece of coursework, rather than to be published. Reduce the adjectives a bit, bring in more symbolism and don't necessarily think that you have to tell us everything about the characters, show us what they're like through what they do and what they say.
But most of all, don't sacrifice your style because of what other people say. If you want to take your narrative one way, then do so, and there will be a readership out there who'll like it.
I can actually relate to what you're feeling. I gave a piece of my work to a trusted friend to review (he's got equal if not better literary skills than me) and all he could say was that it wasn't long enough and was far too fast paced. The problem is, they look at it from a reader's point of view, not a writer's, so you have to do a bit of interpretation, and also remember it's far easier for people to be bluntly critical than constructive.
As for the extract you provided, I'd really just echo what other people have said. It just gives the impression it was written as a piece of coursework, rather than to be published. Reduce the adjectives a bit, bring in more symbolism and don't necessarily think that you have to tell us everything about the characters, show us what they're like through what they do and what they say.
But most of all, don't sacrifice your style because of what other people say. If you want to take your narrative one way, then do so, and there will be a readership out there who'll like it.
Hello. I agree with everything you said, thank you. I was feeling pretty crushed (yes, I'm a crybaby) after my friend's advice but everyone's really helped me get into my head that he was trying to be helpful in his own blunt kind of way. Now that I've grown up a little (haha) I can appreciate his honesty. If he never told me this, I would've never found out that I was doing all of these things wrong. He could've told me in a nicer or more helpful way instead of dropping a bomb on me but at least it forced me to seek out help.
Also I know what you mean about the not sacrificing my style thing. I want to learn more about writing and progress as a writer so I can *improve* upon what I have, but I also don't want to completely drown out my own voice. I guess that's what the learning process is about though, finding our perfect balance or whatever.
GoldenGhost
01-29-2012, 02:04 PM
I am not exactly sure if this relates at all and I admit I kind of got a similar impression from a poem of yours I just reviewed. But, I will state something of a personal experience.
A while ago, I was confronted with some serious criticism not in relation to my work but in my overall life. Someone told me that I like to hide behind flowered, intellectual words as a subconscious way to make myself seem smarter then I really am. All it did was show that I am much less intelligent then I appear and not only do my words complicate themselves but my personality gets lost in translation. Instead of communicating how I felt, I tried describing it in a way that would impress someone. And it was very hard to hear considering I have always thought of myself as intelligent, not more so then others, but intelligent none the less. Needless to say I was humiliated when I heard it the first time. Thankfully, I did not react emotionally and I took it in stride but I struggled with that perception for a time. After i brought my awareness to it and studied that part of myself, I found out that persons words were true and I robbed people of a chance to get to know me by overcomplicating my words for whatever reason. I was not real. I was completely and utterly fake in presentation even if it was subconscious. If i wanted connection with others, true connection, I had to be real. I had to get to the point. I had to show them me and who I was and not some flowery metaphor regarding what I thought of something or an explanation within the present conversation.
Anyways, I do not think you should dismiss what your friend said because your feelings are hurt. True awareness comes from objectivity and when we are clouded with emotions and feelings we have a tendency to not see and learn from the experience. Meditation is a tool used to clear ones mind, to detach from reality in order to look at something with a sense of clarity, UNbiased clarity, for example.
My advice? Take it in stride, there may be credit to what he was saying and your emotions and your trust within your friend/hurt feelings prevented you from seeing it. I am sure he was not doing it maliciously and if he was he is a dick, but however he presented it, do not ignore it. Maybe there is a reason he said what he said, and above all, you should be excited because it can strengthen your work dramatically. I know my experience has made me a much better person today and much more real.
-Ghost
naturemage
01-29-2012, 03:20 PM
Something I learned in a writing workshop in college was to do three good and three bad things about the story. Of course you can ask for more... But, for every bad thing the reader finds, he should also write something good about the story.
And, nothing you write is ever a waste of time. I constantly have to remind myself of that. I published in high school, and the story (to me) wasn't very good, reading it now. I put myself down sometimes about it, but then I remember that if I hadn't written it then, I would be writing stuff like that now. You'll learn, gain experience, and get better over time. I'm not saying what you wrote is bad, but you can always improve. Look at the size of the Harry Potter books for example. They grew considerably as Rowling wrote each one. That's EXPERIENCE.
As for your friend's comments, I don't know exactly what he said or how he said it, but I do have a few points:
- If he's a good friend, he might think he's being helpful by being honest. If you simply asked "what do you think", you didn't ask for anything specific.
- He might not like the plot. I had my brother read a story of mine once, and he said it was bad. When I asked him why, he said he didn't like that genre. End of story. Some people just don't like to read certain stories.
- He's just one person. Ask other people to read it, and ask for specifics (3 good, 3 bad...). If it's your style of writing, there's not much you can change. If you aren't comfortable writing another way, then don't. Your style is your own, and your friend's comments shouldn't change that. Don't forget, Rowling submitted to several publishers who "didn't like her work." She showed them!
TDFuhringer
01-29-2012, 04:17 PM
Sorry to hear you had a disheartening experience. It hurts sometimes.
If you'll permit me to offer advice on the two paragraphs you wrote: You do use a lot of adjectives and adverbs but in my opinion, its not the quantity that's the problem. Simply put, adverbs and adjectives alter the cadence of a sentence. Try reading each sentence aloud, by itself. (I've used this technique to edit my own work and received some praise for the results.) Then take out all the adjectives and adverbs and read the sentence again. Consider the rhythm and pace the sentence needs to have to carry the story best, then add back in the words that fit within the cadence. It's hard to explain, it makes more sense if you do it out loud.
eg. In the paragraph I just wrote, the cadence of the following sentence is VERY noticeable:
Simply put, adverbs and adjectives alter the cadence of a sentence.
Listen to what happens when I add in some description.
Very simply put, flowery adverbs and adjectives significantly alter the rhythmic cadence of a sentence most of the time.
Which one is stronger? That depends on your intent. In the first sentence above my intent was to nail home the key point. So simple is better. But if my intent had been to create atmosphere, the quick, punchy tone of the first sentence wouldn't work.
Try reading your work aloud and considering the cadence of every sentence. It can help.
Cogito
01-29-2012, 04:43 PM
I don't disagree that it's good to try to present a positive note as well as the negatives. But remember, this thread is about dealing with receiving a harsh critique.
You don't get to choose how someone will write their critique. And I admit, sometimes I get so caught up in trying to find the most significant areas of improvement I forget to apply the salve.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't bother with a critique at all if I didn't think there was something there to begin with. I don't get my jollies by kicking puppies.
I've received critiques from people who simply have an axe to grind. If all they say is "This sucks, and your mama's an ugly ho'", I simply write it off as an ignorant troglodyte with more free time than imagination. But if they try to poke you where it hurts, they probably do a better job of trying to find the weaknesses in your writing than your best friends will. So listen to what they say, and look for the truth in their attempts at cruelty.
If someone is trying to be helpful, and you have a chance to question them further, try to narrow them down on the specifrics. Listen to what they say, but don't assume the problems they home in on are the root causes. For example, they might have the wrong idea abourt what your character is doing, so something ambiguous in a previous scene may have set them on the wrong track.
shadowwalker
01-29-2012, 05:36 PM
If someone is trying to be helpful, and you have a chance to question them further, try to narrow them down on the specifrics. Listen to what they say, but don't assume the problems they home in on are the root causes. For example, they might have the wrong idea abourt what your character is doing, so something ambiguous in a previous scene may have set them on the wrong track.
This is something I've seen with a lot of critiques - the author doesn't ask questions. Not referring specifically to the OP, but I've seen people get hurt or angry or simply be totally confused by a 'curt' response - and they just decide to ignore it. Others ask for more details - and find that, yes, indeed, there is something more to the comment. And many times, it's a valid and eye-opening issue.
It's as my mother used to say - You won't know if you don't ask.
I am not exactly sure if this relates at all and I admit I kind of got a similar impression from a poem of yours I just reviewed. But, I will state something of a personal experience.
A while ago, I was confronted with some serious criticism not in relation to my work but in my overall life. Someone told me that I like to hide behind flowered, intellectual words as a subconscious way to make myself seem smarter then I really am. All it did was show that I am much less intelligent then I appear and not only do my words complicate themselves but my personality gets lost in translation. Instead of communicating how I felt, I tried describing it in a way that would impress someone. And it was very hard to hear considering I have always thought of myself as intelligent, not more so then others, but intelligent none the less. Needless to say I was humiliated when I heard it the first time. Thankfully, I did not react emotionally and I took it in stride but I struggled with that perception for a time. After i brought my awareness to it and studied that part of myself, I found out that persons words were true and I robbed people of a chance to get to know me by overcomplicating my words for whatever reason. I was not real. I was completely and utterly fake in presentation even if it was subconscious. If i wanted connection with others, true connection, I had to be real. I had to get to the point. I had to show them me and who I was and not some flowery metaphor regarding what I thought of something or an explanation within the present conversation.
Anyways, I do not think you should dismiss what your friend said because your feelings are hurt. True awareness comes from objectivity and when we are clouded with emotions and feelings we have a tendency to not see and learn from the experience. Meditation is a tool used to clear ones mind, to detach from reality in order to look at something with a sense of clarity, UNbiased clarity, for example.
My advice? Take it in stride, there may be credit to what he was saying and your emotions and your trust within your friend/hurt feelings prevented you from seeing it. I am sure he was not doing it maliciously and if he was he is a dick, but however he presented it, do not ignore it. Maybe there is a reason he said what he said, and above all, you should be excited because it can strengthen your work dramatically. I know my experience has made me a much better person today and much more real.
-Ghost
Hello Ghost. Thank you for taking the time to read my other poem and this thread. I appreciate the time you put into your responses as I know your time is very valuable.
I guess that is a similar experience, but I'm shocked that that person would've made such a bold comment about your life and who you are. Obviously I don't know who the person was to you or what gave him that idea, but I don't think he (or any person) has a right to made such a broad statement about a person's life and claim to know the reason behind why a person chooses to live. Even if he was a psychiatrist, he had no right to judge you in such a way. This is just my opinion.
I do NOT think, at all, that I'm trying to make myself "seem more intelligent" than I really am, which is what I think you're getting at but I'm not sure. I don't even think I'm intelligent, at least not more than most people. I don't speak the way I write so maybe that's the difference, but I take a lot of time and effort to try and make my writing dramatic. I guess in this particular case it backfired. I learned that I'm approaching it the wrong way, and I've come to terms with that.
However, I'd be incredibly foolish to take what he said to an even more personal level and attach even more of a stigma to what he said. My friend is blunt, but it was just my writing we were talking about. I'm not going to sit here and ask myself if there's some kind of underlying reason of why I chose to write that way, because I don't think that it has to do with a subconscious identity crisis or whatever. I honestly just thought that the way I wrote my story (and the poem) sounded good at the time. That's all there is to it.
Anyway I'm sorry if you had to go through that. I admire your clarity, acceptance, and lack of pride. Clearly I just had a big ego that kept me from seeing the flaws. But boy I was humbled!
Something I learned in a writing workshop in college was to do three good and three bad things about the story. Of course you can ask for more... But, for every bad thing the reader finds, he should also write something good about the story.
And, nothing you write is ever a waste of time. I constantly have to remind myself of that. I published in high school, and the story (to me) wasn't very good, reading it now. I put myself down sometimes about it, but then I remember that if I hadn't written it then, I would be writing stuff like that now. You'll learn, gain experience, and get better over time. I'm not saying what you wrote is bad, but you can always improve. Look at the size of the Harry Potter books for example. They grew considerably as Rowling wrote each one. That's EXPERIENCE.
As for your friend's comments, I don't know exactly what he said or how he said it, but I do have a few points:
- If he's a good friend, he might think he's being helpful by being honest. If you simply asked "what do you think", you didn't ask for anything specific.
- He might not like the plot. I had my brother read a story of mine once, and he said it was bad. When I asked him why, he said he didn't like that genre. End of story. Some people just don't like to read certain stories.
- He's just one person. Ask other people to read it, and ask for specifics (3 good, 3 bad...). If it's your style of writing, there's not much you can change. If you aren't comfortable writing another way, then don't. Your style is your own, and your friend's comments shouldn't change that. Don't forget, Rowling submitted to several publishers who "didn't like her work." She showed them!
Hello naturemage. Thank you for the comforting words. I've also learned about the 3 good, 3 bad. Most of the time when I critique another person's work I just do 1 good, 1 bad though. You've made some great points that I will consider from now when thinking about criticism.
In this particular case I think my friend may be right however. I'm sad to admit it but after seeing all of these assessments they pretty much echo what my friend said. The only difference is though that the people here said it in a much nicer and more patient way. Instead of just giving my writing a stamp of hate like my friend did, they actually took the time to explain why they felt that way.
Even though the advice I've been IS eye opening, the way others have presented their critiques doesn't make it seem so hurtful. I actually feel a lot better knowing where I need to work on.
Thank you especially for the JK Rowling words of wisdom. I'm definitely one of her fans despite what a lot of people say. I guess writing is all just relative. I will still fix where I need to though. Everyone here has given me such valuable advice, including you.
Sorry to hear you had a disheartening experience. It hurts sometimes.
If you'll permit me to offer advice on the two paragraphs you wrote: You do use a lot of adjectives and adverbs but in my opinion, its not the quantity that's the problem. Simply put, adverbs and adjectives alter the cadence of a sentence. Try reading each sentence aloud, by itself. (I've used this technique to edit my own work and received some praise for the results.) Then take out all the adjectives and adverbs and read the sentence again. Consider the rhythm and pace the sentence needs to have to carry the story best, then add back in the words that fit within the cadence. It's hard to explain, it makes more sense if you do it out loud.
eg. In the paragraph I just wrote, the cadence of the following sentence is VERY noticeable:
Listen to what happens when I add in some description.
Which one is stronger? That depends on your intent. In the first sentence above my intent was to nail home the key point. So simple is better. But if my intent had been to create atmosphere, the quick, punchy tone of the first sentence wouldn't work.
Try reading your work aloud and considering the cadence of every sentence. It can help.
Hello again, TDFuhringer. Thank you for your advice and the examples. I love examples that work.
I think I'm just really confused about writing. I spent a lot of time as a kid role-playing (it's actually how I met my friend) and at the time I was surrounded by a lot of hardcore fantasy and science fiction buffs who used a lot of adjectives and adverbs. I spent six years with this clique and RP'd and wrote at the same time. I also really thought they were good too, so I started to emulate them until I developed a 'voice' of my own. Looking back I realize though that we all deliberately tried to lengthen our 'posts' because a lot of the more "skilled" players at the time wouldn't even give us the time of day if we couldn't do X number of posts. Hm, I guess now I know why my writing is so verbose, huh?
See, I just learned about another bad habit I need to kick. This is awesome. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.
I think what I need to work on is varying my sentences. The first example was more effective for your intent. The second seems to be what I'm doing throughout my story which is fine like you said, but I need to be more selective. I need to put more thought into my sentences.
Thank you again for your advice. It's given me even more food for thought.
TDFuhringer
01-29-2012, 06:15 PM
Thank you again for your advice. It's given me even more food for thought.
You are most welcome. :)
I don't disagree that it's good to try to present a positive note as well as the negatives. But remember, this thread is about dealing with receiving a harsh critique.
You don't get to choose how someone will write their critique. And I admit, sometimes I get so caught up in trying to find the most significant areas of improvement I forget to apply the salve.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't bother with a critique at all if I didn't think there was something there to begin with. I don't get my jollies by kicking puppies.
I've received critiques from people who simply have an axe to grind. If all they say is "This sucks, and your mama's an ugly ho'", I simply write it off as an ignorant troglodyte with more free time than imagination. But if they try to poke you where it hurts, they probably do a better job of trying to find the weaknesses in your writing than your best friends will. So listen to what they say, and look for the truth in their attempts at cruelty.
If someone is trying to be helpful, and you have a chance to question them further, try to narrow them down on the specifrics. Listen to what they say, but don't assume the problems they home in on are the root causes. For example, they might have the wrong idea abourt what your character is doing, so something ambiguous in a previous scene may have set them on the wrong track.
Hello Cogito. Thank you for that amazing 'troglodyte' and for the 'salve'.
After reading everyone's advice on here and sleeping over it, I feel much better about what he said. Even if revealed a really big flaw in my writing, I still feel optimistic now that I know what to fix. I agree with you that he was genuinely trying to help me by looking harder than other people have. I am very thankful of him now.
He's supposed to call me back in a bit so I will let you know what he says. I asked him for specifics yesterday but he gave me a "this entire thing is an example!!!" which obviously wasn't a very helpful response. Hopefully this time I'll get something I can work with.
joanna
01-29-2012, 06:19 PM
This thread has been enlightening.
I don't think you have to revamp your whole writing style. It sounded like your friend said something like that. I agree with most of the critiques given here, and I think that amounts to paring down of adjectives etc., not throwing everything out and starting over. Anyway, I don't see how one could throw out their style and adopt a whole new one, because everyone already has their own voice. The trick is to find, clarify and enhance that voice. Your writing voice already exists, it just has to be excavated well, like a fossil.
This is something I've seen with a lot of critiques - the author doesn't ask questions. Not referring specifically to the OP, but I've seen people get hurt or angry or simply be totally confused by a 'curt' response - and they just decide to ignore it. Others ask for more details - and find that, yes, indeed, there is something more to the comment. And many times, it's a valid and eye-opening issue.
It's as my mother used to say - You won't know if you don't ask.
Hi again, shadowwalker, thank you for this. I admit in the past I usually didn't ask too many questions. Most of the time though the advice I received were clear and the red ink was pretty easy to follow.
To be honest, his criticism was the BIGGEST eye opener I've ever received, so I was just taken aback. That's mostly because in the past I didn't seek out help as much, so I was expecting/used to the usual SPaG comments. Sometimes people would go an extra step and tell to move some stuff around or cut words here and there out, but no one had ever told me what he did before.
When I asked him last night to give me an example or explain, he basically just told me "this entire thing is an example" which wasn't very helpful. At the time I felt he was just being a jerk, but I think he's just blunt and decided to give me a blunt answer. I'm waiting on a call from him in the next few minutes so hopefully he'll be more helpful.
I will definitely ask more questions from now on though, if just to avoid the head and heartache.
This thread has been enlightening.
I don't think you have to revamp your whole writing style. It sounded like your friend said something like that. I agree with most of the critiques given here, and I think that amounts to paring down of adjectives etc., not throwing everything out and starting over. Anyway, I don't see how one could throw out their style and adopt a whole new one, because everyone already has their own voice. The trick is to find, clarify and enhance that voice. Your writing voice already exists, it just has to be excavated well, like a fossil.
Hi joanna. I agree with you. I'm actually embarrassed by my emotional response now that things are more clear, even though I'd probably still be emotional and sad if not for everyone's help on here.
And thank you so much for that. It really felt like he told me to start over and re-learn how to write.
I don't see how one could throw out their style and adopt a whole new one, because everyone already has their own voice. The trick is to find, clarify and enhance that voice."
Exactly how I feel. I made a list of some writing goals that I need to work on (cutting down on adverbs and adjectives, trimming the excess, etc) but I really like what you said here. It helps me visualize what I need to do.
TDFuhringer
01-29-2012, 06:38 PM
I have to second joanna. Your writing voice is heavy with description. No need to change that. You just need to find a way to make your voice stronger and easier to listen to, or in this case, read.
When I'm writing a first draft, most people would be shocked by how dry it is. Stephen King said some writers are "Putter-Inners" and some writers are "Taker-Outers". Neither is wrong. Neither is better. I tend to be a "Putter-Inner". I write very tight and then open it up during the revisions. I'm willing to bet your first drafts are anything but dry. You are full of description. And that's wonderful. Trimming the excess is always good practice, but don't completely change your voice. :)
I have to second joanna. Your writing voice is heavy with description. No need to change that. You just need to find a way to make your voice stronger and easier to listen to, or in this case, read.
When I'm writing a first draft, most people would be shocked by how dry it is. Stephen King said some writers are "Putter-Inners" and some writers are "Taker-Outers". Neither is wrong. Neither is better. I tend to be a "Putter-Inner". I write very tight and then open it up during the revisions. I'm willing to bet your first drafts are anything but dry. You are full of description. And that's wonderful. Trimming the excess is always good practice, but don't completely change your voice. :)
Ahhh, I love Stephen King. That's great advice and interesting information. I am definitely on the opposite side of the camp (or however that saying goes). I'm a trimmer or "take-outer" as he calls us. I think it's a habit I picked up during my old role-playing days and in school papers where they tell you to write 5,000 words or whatever. An old teacher of mine told me that if I didn't know what word to use, use two in my draft just so I can move on, but come back to that spot later and fix it. I know that's why I use so many darn adjectives.
As for the adverbs, I really don't know why I use so many of those.
ChickenFreak
01-29-2012, 08:26 PM
I feel like he basically told me I can't write at all and that all the work I've done so far to get to where I'm at now (skill level wise) was a waste of time.
That's not how it sounds to me. It sounds like he's saying that you're _over_ using your skills.
To switch to another craft, I've been sewing lately. I'm acquiring skills. Let's say that I learn how to do beaded embroidery, and I do it well. I sew a gorgeous plain white silk blouse, one that cries out to be appreciated for its simple uncluttered flowing lines, and I slap a bunch of beaded embroidery all over it. The blouse may be great. The embroidery may be great. But the embroidery on the blouse is a poor combination of two well-developed skills.
I don't know exactly what the issue is, but what he said would be consistent with a situation where you had developed good skills with complex sentences, and a wide vocabulary, and other skills that have a role in writing, but that you may be overusing those skills and using them to 'decorate' in places where plain simple writing is a better choice. That doesn't mean that you haven't developed a lot of good writing skills, any more than the ruined blouse means that I can't sew or can't embroider. It means that you just need to now acquire the skill of knowing when to apply which skills.
Edited to add: OK, I missed the later posts of the thread and your example. :) Seeing that example, I'd say, yes: There's embroidery there. Finely executed high-quality embroidery, showing good skill, but there's too much of it. You've developed your skills to the point that the next skill to develop, IMO, is learning what flourishes to remove and where the surviving flourishes will give the most impact.
ChickenFreak
Cogito
01-29-2012, 08:39 PM
Note: This forum is for discussion of critiquing techniques. Actual critique is only permitted in the Writing Workshop.
TDFuhringer
01-29-2012, 08:42 PM
Sorry Cogito. Didn't know that.
Cogito, my apologies.
TDFuhringer, sorry about that. Thank you for the invaluable advice.
TDFuhringer
01-29-2012, 08:47 PM
No worries. :)
That's not how it sounds to me. It sounds like he's saying that you're _over_ using your skills.
To switch to another craft, I've been sewing lately. I'm acquiring skills. Let's say that I learn how to do beaded embroidery, and I do it well. I sew a gorgeous plain white silk blouse, one that cries out to be appreciated for its simple uncluttered flowing lines, and I slap a bunch of beaded embroidery all over it. The blouse may be great. The embroidery may be great. But the embroidery on the blouse is a poor combination of two well-developed skills.
I don't know exactly what the issue is, but what he said would be consistent with a situation where you had developed good skills with complex sentences, and a wide vocabulary, and other skills that have a role in writing, but that you may be overusing those skills and using them to 'decorate' in places where plain simple writing is a better choice. That doesn't mean that you haven't developed a lot of good writing skills, any more than the ruined blouse means that I can't sew or can't embroider. It means that you just need to now acquire the skill of knowing when to apply which skills.
Edited to add: OK, I missed the later posts of the thread and your example. :) Seeing that example, I'd say, yes: There's embroidery there. Finely executed high-quality embroidery, showing good skill, but there's too much of it. You've developed your skills to the point that the next skill to develop, IMO, is learning what flourishes to remove and where the surviving flourishes will give the most impact.
ChickenFreak
ChickenFreak, wow! Thank you so much for this.
Your sewing example really helped clear things up for me, and it was said so tactfully and nicely. Thank you for that.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense, and actually after just talking to my friend again it echoes his sentiments perfectly. I guess he's just more blunt and didn't know how to explain his thoughts the way others here have.
I feel much better. Now I don't feel like I just suck at writing or that I just spent the last x years learning how to write badly. I have a clear goal thanks to you and everyone here. I'm also not as confused. What you said is absolutely perfect and I appreciate the time and consideration you've given me.
Cosmic Latte
01-29-2012, 09:21 PM
We put our works away for a time for perspective, and I think time also helps in softening a harsh critique. The harshest critiques I have ever received were from someone close to me, and because of it I've decided not to share any of my writing with that person. I realized, over time, that this person's critiques had nothing to do with my work, but were purely self-centered outlets from an inflated ego. Kind-of bizarre. Even so, I still seek honest appraisals and have slowly been learning not to defend my work when other people (who actually do mean well) review my work. I think that listening to and weighing criticism is a skill in itself.
You seem to really look up to your friend. I think it's awesome that you wanted to clarify with him what he meant, but it sounded like in your reply #37 that he blew you off. I'd think your friend would have known you long enough to be familiar with your voice and your writing style. Perhaps he's just been having a rough time of things lately and projected this into his review of your work, kind of like my awful reviewer used to do? What do you think you'll do now? You've gotten a lot of great feedback from the wf members already; I hope you do experiment with their advise and see how the changes can affect your work.
psychotick
01-29-2012, 09:29 PM
Hi,
First up, welcome to the world of writing. We all have thin skins when it comes to our work.Our stories are like our babies, and no parent would ever be able to hear a harsh word said about their darling bub. I'm sure your friend was trying to be helpful, but perhaps a little less good at explaining what he meant then he might have been.
As to your short excerpt I'll just make a few quick comments:
The newborn’s deafening cry sent a reverberating echo throughout The Swan’s dark and empty halls.
An echo is in fact a reverberation, so you've actually said an echoing echo or its equivalent.
A dim artificial light and the occasional blinking of computer diodes illuminated the small, chemical smelling room and reflected dully off of the cold hard surfaces of the science laboratory’s medical apparatus.
I'd agree with the others, LED's works better. Also a chemical smelling room? I think you really mean a room that stank of chemicals. Lastly there's a problem with the ownership of the reflection. You mean that the light from a dim florouescent and some LED's reflected off the cold hard surfaces. As you've written it, it sounds like the light itself (as in the physical object) reflected off the surfaces.
There was nothing warm or welcoming about this place. But of course how could it be?
The only thing I would change here is the 'it' to a 'there'.
This space vessel belonged to LEDA (the Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation), and more specifically, this was Dr. Valerie Adler’s lab. I like this. It indirectly tells me a lot about the doctor who it seems is a cold fish.
An attractive and unemotional blonde-haired woman in a white lab coat was carefully and tensely examining a small baby boy with a flashlight in her left hand and a blunt prodding tool in the right.
As the others have said too many adjectives. Also they don't go together perfectly. For a start unemotional is generally not considered an attractive quality. So I'd suggest changing that to 'An attractive but cool (or similar) blond in a lab coat.' Also if she was unemotional then how can she be tense? The next part might read better as ' - was carefully examining a small baby boy with a flashlight in one hand and a prod in the other.' Then you might want to add a short sentence as to how she seemed slightly tense as she worked or similar.
The room had become silent again except for the scientist’s steady breathing and the rhythmic beeping of health monitors. This is good but I think it should be 'the' health monitors. I'm assuming the 'again' refers to events that occurred before I started reading this excerpt.
When she appeared to be confident with the information she’d gathered, she discarded the flashlight and tool and peeled off the latex gloves. Everything seemed to be going according to plan. I don't think confident is the rightword to use here. At a guess I think you mean satisfied. The tool is probably a prod, and she peeled off 'her' latex gloves.
Overall I liked where this was going but I thought it was too hurried, trying to do too much with too few words, which is why there seem to be two adjectives to describe everything. Feel free to linger a bit longer in your descriptions would be my advice.
I hope that helps and you feel it was constructive. I would also add that there is a critique thread for short stories and books etc in this fora, and I'd suggest using it. At least that way not only will you be getting a range of advice, but the people giving it won't have emotional ties to you, so they can be more honest and you don't have to be confused that friendship and critique are being mixed up together. Your friend is still your friend but I don't think he's the ideal person to do your critique simple because of that closeness.
Cheers, Greg.
GoldenGhost
01-29-2012, 09:51 PM
Hello Ghost. Thank you for taking the time to read my other poem and this thread. I appreciate the time you put into your responses as I know your time is very valuable.
I guess that is a similar experience, but I'm shocked that that person would've made such a bold comment about your life and who you are. Obviously I don't know who the person was to you or what gave him that idea, but I don't think he (or any person) has a right to made such a broad statement about a person's life and claim to know the reason behind why a person chooses to live. Even if he was a psychiatrist, he had no right to judge you in such a way. This is just my opinion.
I do NOT think, at all, that I'm trying to make myself "seem more intelligent" than I really am, which is what I think you're getting at but I'm not sure. I don't even think I'm intelligent, at least not more than most people. I don't speak the way I write so maybe that's the difference, but I take a lot of time and effort to try and make my writing dramatic. I guess in this particular case it backfired. I learned that I'm approaching it the wrong way, and I've come to terms with that.
However, I'd be incredibly foolish to take what he said to an even more personal level and attach even more of a stigma to what he said. My friend is blunt, but it was just my writing we were talking about. I'm not going to sit here and ask myself if there's some kind of underlying reason of why I chose to write that way, because I don't think that it has to do with a subconscious identity crisis or whatever. I honestly just thought that the way I wrote my story (and the poem) sounded good at the time. That's all there is to it.
Anyway I'm sorry if you had to go through that. I admire your clarity, acceptance, and lack of pride. Clearly I just had a big ego that kept me from seeing the flaws. But boy I was humbled!
No of course not. I was not saying you were acting more intelligent then you think you are. I do think your message gets lost with over-dramatic/flowery writing when you could get to the point and leave MUCH more of an impact with your reader.
Anyway my experience and my point was, I received harsh/humiliating critique from a friend who brought something to my awareness that became extremely beneficial. Not only did I apply it but he was appallingly right and he was trying to help me. 100% Writers should know this better than anyone because our work excels when its put under the microscope and torn apart bit by bit. The only way we progress is if we take the time to find every intricate problem down to the last word and do it through a series of people to find the inconsistencies or consistencies and expand on them.
And personally I disagree I think people are entitled to their opinions and can speak there mind whenever they want to. That doesn't mean they are right or wrong. If were to walk around and tell people how they shouldn't speak then I would be wrong as well. The point is, I was able to learn from the critique, regardless of how harsh it was and that we shouldn't shoot down things just because they hurt our feelings. Sometimes things hurt our feelings because deep down we know that its true. When showing people your work, make sure you are emotionally detached from the piece before hand otherwise you will not be able to accept any negative feed back what so ever and negative feedback is what we should WANT imo.
-Ghost
Hi again Ghost. :)
I guess we'll just agree to disagree about the judgment thing. It's just recently I had an experience where my mom and I were at her company party and my mom was wearing some nice earrings my dad had bought her. One of her female coworkers (you know how catty we can be) commented and basically told my mom that the earrings outclassed her and that she shouldn't wear them anymore. And trust me when I say she wasn't trying to be nice, at all. I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's not always appropriate to tell people what you think about them--unless they asked, of course, or that person needs an intervention for some reason. Anyway, moving on.
I wasn't really going to discount my friend's advice just because it was mean. I just wasn't sure what it meant and had no idea at first if it was even constructive or just him being a jerk. Because of my emotional attachment and my lack of experience I honestly did misinterpret his intentions/meaning, which is why I asked for help on trying to discern if it was even helpful advice.
You're absolutely right though. Harsh advice is the best, as long as it's constructive and well explained. I just felt like a bomb had been dropped on me without any kind of explanation. I will have to work on thickening my skin for the next time.
Also, thanks again for all your input. It is very much appreciated. :)
Hi psychotick, thank you for the very specific critique. I have found the breakdown and comments of my work especially helpful. It makes it a lot easier for me to see the areas that are good, and the areas that still need work.
Also, it never occurred to me that it sounded like I was rushing through and was trying to compensate by stuffing more details into each sentence. This is actually true now you've brought it to my attention. I'm still trying to find a more clever and less obvious way to info dump without wasting too much space (since there is a word limit). I saved your review because I think the admins might delete your comment, unfortunately. I was warned about receiving critique on here. I'm so sorry if your comment gets deleted.
Your comments have helped a lot and I thank you. Your input is very much appreciated. I will also have to follow your advice and not baby my work (or treat it as such) as much, and seek help from neutral readers.
GoldenGhost
01-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Hi again Ghost. :)
I guess we'll just agree to disagree about the judgment thing. It's just recently I had an experience where my mom and I were at her company party and my mom was wearing some nice earrings my dad had bought her. One of her female coworkers (you know how catty we can be) commented and basically told my mom that the earrings outclassed her and that she shouldn't wear them anymore. And trust me when I say she wasn't trying to be nice, at all. I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's not always appropriate to tell people what you think about them--unless they asked, of course, or that person needs an intervention for some reason. Anyway, moving on.
I wasn't really going to discount my friend's advice just because it was mean. I just wasn't sure what it meant and had no idea at first if it was even constructive or just him being a jerk. Because of my emotional attachment and my lack of experience I honestly did misinterpret his intentions/meaning, which is why I asked for help on trying to discern if it was even helpful advice.
You're absolutely right though. Harsh advice is the best, as long as it's constructive and well explained. I just felt like a bomb had been dropped on me without any kind of explanation. I will have to work on thickening my skin for the next time.
Also, thanks again for all your input. It is very much appreciated. :)
Of course. This time we will agree. Just because everyone is entitled to their opinion doesn't mean said opinion is 'polite'. There are times when things can be said and when times things shouldn't and for my exp. specifically he said it at an appropriate time between me and him as friends. But don't give up. Keep your head up. And never forget no matter what happens, we don't necessarily write because we write well. We write because it allows us to channel our energy. Sure we want to strive and do it competently but lets face it, I think we all write because it gives us something outside of it being good in other peoples eyes. The difference between people who succeed and people who fail are the people who have succeeded, learned from their mistakes and picked themselves up every-time they fell. The people who have failed, gave up after their first attempt and climbed into a hole and cried.
mammamaia
01-30-2012, 08:34 AM
it's not just adverbs, but adjectives as well... they're useful things used in moderation... you just go overboard with 'em...
do more reading of the best-written fiction... study how the really fine writers use imagery at its best...
HorusEye
01-30-2012, 09:11 AM
So much good advice here, not much can be added. I'd only recommend you read Hemingway if you haven't. If you have, read some of it again. He can make a short and simple sentence carry far more weight than a hundred adjectives. And the great thing about having a minimalistic style: when you use a word, your reader knows you mean it literally, and once you do need to hammer something in hard, it'll feel all the more dramatic.
madhoca
01-30-2012, 10:08 AM
I understand what your friend meant, I think, but since he was not specific, I can just say that I found your writing overloaded with adjectives and adverbs, as well as unecessary verbiage like 'it seemed'. Apart from that, you don't need to change your style. I think that in time, this is something writers do anyway. Keep working on it, concentrating more on the showing instead of telling aspect of the story, and you'll be fine.
The lightened-up version:
The newborn’s cry echoed through The Swan’s empty halls. A dim light and the blinking of computer diodes illuminated the chemical smelling room and reflected off of the surfaces of the laboratory’s apparatus. There was nothing warm or welcoming about this place. But of course how could it be? This space vessel belonged to LEDA (the Lunar Engineering Department of Adaptation), and more specifically, this was Dr. Valerie Adler’s lab.
An unemotional blond woman in a lab coat was examining a baby with a flashlight and blunt instrument. The room had become silent again except for the scientist’s breathing and the beeping of monitors. When she was confident with the information she’d gathered, she peeled off the latex gloves. Everything was going according to plan.
The words I deleted were doing nothing for me. If it is important to say that the light is artificial, for example, don't string it next to the other adjective, give another sentence showing where the light source comes from. If you want to show how she's working, don't just say 'carefully', show how she is being careful.
Hope this helps.
jc,
One of the things that draws me to writing...I'm probably going to sound a bit arrogant here and don't mean to...
I have degree's in math and physics. Such fields are right up my alley as there are always objective answers and if one learns the material and the rules, they are immutable. In other words, 2+2=4 and always will. Doesn't matter if the professor or the critique likes you or doesn't; if you come up with an answer of 4, you are correct. The problem is, this type of thinking has always been easy for me. Striving for perfection in these fields is actually attainable and it fails to adequately challenge me because the feedback loop is so reliable. 2+2 is always 4.
On the other hand, you should never start a sentence with the word 'and'....although there are remarkable exceptions. Therein lies the challenge for me and it's in such fields that I find myself drawn to. Chess is often thought of as a completely logical game, but there is an art to it at the higher levels. I dove into it for this reason and became a chess master. Poker is another such field. You have to know how many 'outs' you have and what the pot odds are versus your money odds - which are strictly mathematical in nature, but you have to know your opponent as well - and therein lies the art. I've been a professional poker player for 24 years and written a book on the game. In my opinion, writing is exactly like both of these - it plays to both sides of the brain.
In college, I turned in the exact same paper in two classes. My English comp 101 professor, who actually had a crush on me, took me aside and said that she couldn't accept it - that it was horrid. I turned the same paper in to another class and the professor held it up to the class as an example of an ingenious paper. Again, it was the same paper! All writing is not going to appeal to all people. As a result, the feedback loop stinks. Some think that substance is more important than style, others think that style is everything. Your friend gave you an honest appraisal, but you very well have chosen a genre that he despises, or a style that that he can't stomach. You're trying and honest effort yields results.
I'll tell you this, your posts have an honesty to them that I find appealing. If you bring that to your writing, the rest can be worked on.
Hey everyone,
Just to give this thread some closure, I got a more detailed critique back from the same friend. He said that he didn't mean to be so blunt and that he was just busy that day and thought I would get what he meant, so that was nice to hear. It was also interesting to see that he pretty much echoed everyone's sentiments here. He actually said something nice too (gasp) but I was more pleased about the the stuff you all mentioned.
Anyway I used his more thorough analysis and your advice and compiled a list of things to work on here:
Writing Goals
- Eliminate adverbs when possible
- Describe more, and without the use of adjectives
- Quality over quantity, don’t rush writing
- Use “said”
- Show more, tell less
- Cut out unnecessary fluff
- Keep sentences simple and short (easier to digest)
- Don’t be redundant (reverberating echo)
- Use proper SPAG
- Thicken skin, seek critique and ask questions often
Please let me know if you think I missed anything. Thank you all immensely for your time and kind consideration.
JC
TDFuhringer
01-30-2012, 11:06 PM
:D Wonderful! I'm delighted for you that your friend clarified his original statements. I'm sure that's a relief. It's great to hear your Writing Goals. They are all excellent and will serve you well. I can't wait to read what you write next!
Cacian
01-31-2012, 04:57 AM
I think any advice is better then none.
I get lots of not so nice advice all the time but I stick to my guns and take on board what they said too.
Writing is a personal journey and as long as you have enjoyed writing it then nothing really else matter.
Everyone is different and not everyone is going to agree or like what you do or say.
I think you should just either ignore it and think that this person does not really understand and move on,because critiques do not always understand and get it right they don't really know you.
From the 2 paragraphs I read - now bear in mind I don't actually like or read sci-fi, ok? - but from what I read, I'd agree with your friend that you sound like you're trying too hard. Too many adjectives - have some faith in your readers that they'll get it, rather than spoon-feed them too much. But then again, I hate detailed writing :D I didn't even enjoy the details in Tolkien's LOTR or Stieg Larsson's Girl with the Dragon Tattoo for the same reasons. I prefer more poetry. But this is a style preference. However, I can also understand what your friend meant by your style being a little "distracting" - because you try to put in so much detail into one single sentence, the reader has no time or space to think and really imagine the story and get into it.
For me personally, you don't have to "ditch your style" - to be honest I like some of your wording etc. I don't know how to explain it but I can see that you know how to write, your word choices are purposeful, and all it is is that you're trying to cram too much in, you know? Follow your friend's advice and try and write "plainly" - that's not to say you should write like that forever - but right now that's what you DON'T know how to do. So make yourself write plainly, re-read stuff and ask yourself, "But does my reader absolutely NEED to know this little piece of detail RIGHT NOW and is there any other way of conveying it in a more interesting manner?" I'm sure you'll see improvements.
If it's any consolation, throughout my time at university when I was writing essays, I was "trying too hard" and I didn't even know it. I wanted it to sound good, smart, beautiful, so so very much that my sentences became over-elaborate and convoluted. And then I sorta "gave up" trying and I just thought, screw it I'm just gonna bang out this essay, my writing became a lot clearer and better haha and those essays I got higher marks in too. So if you're "trying too hard" it's not necessarily to say you're a bad writer - not at all - but it just means well, you're not quite confident in your writing yet, and you're just trying very hard to learn. There's nothing wrong with that and the confidence will come. Sometimes have a little bit of faith in yourself too :)
Also, my work has been absolutely torn apart by a trusted, experienced writer before - torn to shreds - I was told that I was absolutely an appalling writer and cannot write to save my life, and that I should simply quit trying because it's just a blind waste of time if you asked that person.
And I've since found an editor - also experienced and trusted, who've pushed books out to agents and the MS have been accepted and published; he's been editing for over 20 years - and he tells me that he LOVES my style. He loves my quirky usage of words and description, and he's excited to see how my novel's gonna come out and he'll recommend me to an agent using his contacts and reputation.
So who's right? The first writer, or my editor? In the end, you'll always get a few haters. What you gotta do is ignore them and carry on. If the hater is a stranger, walk away and avoid them. If the hater is a friend, then just don't share your writing with them or kindly tell them to be more sensitive or else keep their opinion to themselves. Look, if it doesn't HELP you, you don't have to stay to listen to it. There's a difference with taking on criticism that helps you and wasting your time with criticism that simply crushes you.
Dave W.
02-13-2012, 07:23 PM
I tend to over write. I do tend to catch myself when I do it.
If I cat get away from it, I stop writing and read The Old Man and The Sea. It is tremendously simple writing and conveyed as such.
Edlamp
03-30-2012, 05:20 AM
I wouldn't take offence at all (it's so hard to succeed in writing that all writers need to be really challenged - you can find many professional writers, including great ones, who received scathing reviews at some point in their writing life).
Often there's a fine line between writing that works and doesn't. I think it's to do with voice. Often you can see that someone can write but it doesn't quite seem natural. It is when it is natural, when the writing really flows, the writer has found their voice, that you get the sparks. I'm sure many professional writers started off, and then regress, into writing which is laboured, without a real voice.
And it could be that your friend is completely wrong! But he's being honest, and that attitude is what you want than a friend who is scared to say what they think. Writing is hard, and you're only going to make it, i think, if you respond positively to criticism, learn from it, experiment, and so on.
Good luck.
Edlamp
03-30-2012, 05:22 AM
And apologies for all the terrible grammar and punctuation in the last post (in a rush ..)
Islander
03-30-2012, 05:58 AM
The fact that your friend is an English major doesn't automatically mean his criticism is relevant. Professional critics often have very different opinions of the same story. Some things are just a matter of taste. In addition, the point he made (about trying too hard to write well) sounds like something very subjective.
So what I'm saying is, don't take the criticism too seriously unless you hear the same point from several different people.
People have very different skills in giving criticism... both with regards to the advice they give and how they present it. I'm very lucky to have a friend who both makes good points, and presents them very tactfully (focusing on one or two things at a time that can be improved).
michaelj
04-04-2012, 10:15 AM
You must remember.. Some people will love your work and some people will hate it, being a friend doesn't change that.
superpsycho
04-07-2012, 12:06 PM
Sounds like he was being a good friend and giving you what I suspect you asked for, his honest opinion. Th problem was you were looking for approval and encouragement rather than an honest opinion. The things he listed are the most common issues with beginners. You're know working to improve your writing rather than continue as you were. Thank your friend most so called friends would just say something to avoid the truth and not read it at all. He put himself out there just as much you did by letting him read it.
Pythonforger
04-26-2012, 02:57 AM
Suck it up and move on.
It sounds cowboy-style tough, "take it like a man", but really, it's one of the foolproof ways to combat criticism. The first story I wrote here? I was eleven at the time. The reviews I got were very(overtly!) polite and basically said,"hahahahah you sux go home boi. either dat or joo shuld take liek 100000000 riting class lolo".
Guess what I did? I sucked it up and wrote another story. The next story got better reviews; they only insulted three members of my family. ;)
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