Just something I've noticed about myself, I have a hard time getting into my male characters' heads. I believe this is due to the fact that I'm a girl. How do you overcome this and become equal on both parts? My female characters are always a lot more fully developed and have more personality (it seems) then their male counterparts.
AND I usually have less female characters (though they are typically stronger characters) then male characters in my stories.
Help me understand the male psyche so I can become a better writer for my males! :)

....

I'm a girl, and I have never had problem doing with any one of them. Many stories I write have male as main characters, and the only few things you need to know if you're writing about a male character is: he's egoistic. He doesn't like to be told he cannot handle things. He tries to do everything and when he's upset he likes to be told you're with him. He's more sexually active, and like Weasel said about women and beer. But your character could always be an exception, since not all men are like that. I only remember the cultural values of men in my setting, so that some relation could be derived. A male in Iraq wouldn't go walking in the streets wearing his swimsuit. You wouldn't see a man gossiping (normally) in Asia. You need to think of the fact that being a man is just the same - just you don't do crying, getting attentions, blushing etc. I guess it's easy for me because I condemn this girly stuff and am kind of not into these things. But let yourself explore your other side when you write this - NOT by following males but just thinking of what would i do if i were a man kind of thing.

I'm the opposite. I'm a female and cant seem to get into female parts. I was raised by males in an all male household and took jobs dominated by males. If I am stuck in a female conversation or "world" for any length of time, I go nuts and want to escape as fast as possible, I just have nothing to say about clothes, children, or love. I try to write them, but they end up a little masculine. In the book I'm writing I am trying to get into females.

Haha! That's so interesting. I grew up with five brothers, so I can understand male humor, and that type of thing. I'm also married, and so I do understand a lot about men - like my husband, for example. But I guess it's hard for me to imagine being a man. I should probably try a story with a man as the main character.

If you write in third person, you show your character by his or her actions. These are the same actions you observe in the people around you.

My suggestion is to be a people watcher, and be a listener. Observe the member of the opposite sex like Steve Irwin would observe a wild animal in its native habitat. There are still habitats you won't be able to observe, surely. A woman won't know firsthand that men don't, as a rule, chat in the men's rest room, and won't know firsthand how the conversation changes when there are no women in earshot - whether it becomes wink wink nudge nudge crude innuendo depends one the men present for the conversation. It may not be as lewd and disgusting as you imagine.

But you can still get a pretty good idea of how the subspecies behaves by what you can see in the open herd.

I've been brought up excessively as a female - all sisters, and mom, almost invisible Dad - female schooling, and to think I haven't met a new guy my age for 2 years now - but I still am able to do pretty good with men and women both. I wonder why.

I tend to make my men very real, but my women squeaky, ultra feminine, and weak. I always, always, ALWAYS have to go back and tweak them. You're not alone!

Don't try to get it right the first time. You can go back and make thhe men more real after you finish writing it.

A woman won't know firsthand that men don't, as a rule, chat in the men's rest room, and won't know firsthand how the conversation changes when there are no women in earshot - whether it becomes wink wink nudge nudge crude innuendo depends one the men present for the conversation.

Actually the same happens to women, and people of other races, and like you say, it is not always crude. Men tend to harass each other a lot, make fun of each other and kid around. Men say things to each other that would hurt a woman if women spoke the same way (hey you, get your fat a** over here," would have a woman crying-- a guy would probably throw you the finger, and that would get a big laugh. (I had a lot of this in "the Steam Roller" story, not a lot of people "got it" though). It's funny, but my office abuts an area frequented by jawing work-men. (all men). They totally change what they are talking about when a woman, or boss-type comes through. I also knew about the men's bathroom rules. They are extremely involved, covering which urinal one can go to if another one is occupied and all sorts of things. Women seem to have less rules. Including being able to pass things under the toilet partition, and talk while using the potty. Even to the point of "recognizing shoes" and starting a conversation. "Hi Emily, I saw your feet and wanted to ask you if you are still going to the movies Friday night?"

Whoa... guys would never do that. We have our privacy and respect that (keep away, no talking, no eye contact). I actually prefer to avoid urinals all together and go to a stall. Haha.

Rarely have I used a urinal. The majority of the times I find myself using the toilet, and locking the doors, just to take a piss.

If you talk, people think you are gay.

Rarely have I used a urinal. The majority of the times I find myself using the toilet, and locking the doors, just to take a piss.

If you talk, people think you are gay.

How about those guys that choose the urinal next to you out of 30 free urinals to your left or right. And then, to make matters worse, they groan and grunt when they piss.

So gay :(

Skip

I have to make sure there is something blocking me from other people or I just can't go. At the least it has to be one of those little foot wide dividers. It threw me when I got to China, because talking while you go to the bathroom is expected. Sometime they don't even put up a wall for the actual stalls, because that would interfere with conversations.

Anyways, the best way to improve writing about the opposite sex, is to listen to them, ask them questions if you know them well enough, and read books from their perspectives.
Thats what I did to get an idea about women for my stories, and I believe it worked out well.

Actually the same happens to women, and people of other races, and like you say, it is not always crude. Men tend to harass each other a lot, make fun of each other and kid around. Men say things to each other that would hurt a woman if women spoke the same way (hey you, get your fat a** over here," would have a woman crying-- a guy would probably throw you the finger, and that would get a big laugh. (I had a lot of this in "the Steam Roller" story, not a lot of people "got it" though). It's funny, but my office abuts an area frequented by jawing work-men. (all men). They totally change what they are talking about when a woman, or boss-type comes through. I also knew about the men's bathroom rules. They are extremely involved, covering which urinal one can go to if another one is occupied and all sorts of things. Women seem to have less rules. Including being able to pass things under the toilet partition, and talk while using the potty. Even to the point of "recognizing shoes" and starting a conversation. "Hi Emily, I saw your feet and wanted to ask you if you are still going to the movies Friday night?"

Some of those generalizations about men are pure stereotype. Yes, those kinds of conversations do happen in some groups of men (and I've heard similarly raunchy conversations from women too!), but I wouldn't call it typical male behavior. The circles I run with tend to quiet conversation, clean jokes, discussions about TV shows and movies, and are likely to give a cold stare to men who carry on like the ones you describe.

I've sat down and talked at the bar with men from other circles too. Guys who argue sports endlessly, and with good natured insults - about their poor choice of teams or players. I've sat down with war veterans who prefer to talk about shooting pool than their war experiences - until you get to know them, and if you're very lucky, you might get to her the occasional story, spoken in a low quiet voice. One in particular got to know my son well enough that he let my son read a few pages of his memoirs. There are men who light up when they talk about their new nephews and nieces.

Well, I'm a guy and I don't seem to have a problem with my characters, I guess I'm just perfect! (halo)
Nah! Just kidding, I ask my best friend a lot of questions about everything (she's a girl) like, why girls in high school always go to the toilet together. I always thought it was a bit lesbiany and usually thought about it all through the rest of class. (typical guy thoughts, take note)
Seriously, guys pretty much think about sex, girls, alcohol and games. Well that's what my bunch think about. Anyway, try to find a person who fits the type of character and base it off them, tweak it a bit and just go nuts.

And as a record, I have no problem just whipping it out in the men's room, that's what it's there for. Seriously, you should only try to hide your shame (or glory) from little kids or girls, they'd probably get a bit of a scare. And my friends and I usually have some sort of wierd competition in the toilets. WIERD!

But, yeah. Do the whole artist approach and ask some girl to get naked and sit on a table for you (just kidding)
Just go home with them and install cameras into every crevice of the house... (just kidding again)

Try to think about usual reactions, men and women are 90% the same all you have to do is grasp the last 10% and you're set.

Women and men are 90% same?

I beg to differ Aether.

More like 10.0

How about those guys that choose the urinal next to you out of 30 free urinals to your left or right. And then, to make matters worse, they groan and grunt when they piss.

So gay :(

Skip

Yeah?

I had one guy lean over and look down.

In that situation, you can truly test your aim.

I had one guy lean over and look down.

:eek:

That's just...strange, and creepy...

Let's try to keep the thread on target, regardless of whether the stream is, please.

Lily, i tend to have the same problem as you aswell. my female charectors always have more depth and pizaz to them than the males do. i tend to sort of have a sterio-typical male, which aint too good. the best you can do is just keep working on them. remember, just with females, there is no sterio-type male. yu can make them however you want to be if you want. good luck with it. :)
Heather

I don't think my males are stereo-typical. They are all different, depending on who they are. They just don't get much deeper then the conversations they are in. There's not really any underlying truth to them. My main character's Father, for example, is a stressed out ruler who is good natured etc. - but I can never seem to bring out his inner qualities - what he's really thinking. I do suggest it in some of his actions, but it's never clear. Maybe that's how it should be though, some people are simply quiet, and work well behind the scenes. That's just not what I had originally planned out for this character, and I don't know how to make him be a more aggressive man. (Maybe I could make that side of him come out later, or something.)

ermm, i;m not too sure wat you could do to help this i'm afraid. maybe just forced him to be more aggresive. don't worry if it sounds unrealistic at the moment, work on later. but for now get him to be angry or something. after all, he is your charector, there to do whatever you want with. work on making it sound better as you get more comfertable with having him aggressive i think. hope this helps.
Heather

You might want to compare then. If he were not a he i.e. a mother, what differences would be in your expression? Maybe you could write comparative scenes to see if you find something different. Is there an affect on the way you write? Or is it just in your head? If something is different, then what? Why? And how can you change it?

Okay. So what about grocery shopping. Some guys hate it. They run into the store, grab the same things they always eat without thinking, then check out. Women tend to read the backs of packages. When shopping for clothing, I think it is about 50/50 whether men just grab something and leave. Some men are really in to clothes and others are not. In my case (a woman) I sometimes grab and go if it is a brand I normally get. Then if men are interested in a hobby or something, they spend way too much time jawing about it and acquiring new stuff. Main hobbies around here seem to be Hunting, and classic cars, a lot of men out here seem to fancy themselves "rock musicians" too, yeah, stereotypes, I know. You dont dare tell them they have no talent. I think most men have a much longer fuse than women, but once you actually say the thing they fear the most, they hate you forever. And of course all life stops when "the game" comes on.

I'm sorry, did you say something? The game was on.

All the "Guys" here will be watching "The World Series," I'll be watching "The Breeder's Cup."

"Men can think about up to three things at the same time (provided the three things are sex, food and beer)"

I object! As a male there are a variety of thoughts that run through head that by no means fall under the category of "sex, food, and beer."
For instance, this very moment I'm thinking . . . hmmm . . . never mind.

I may offend some die-hard fans, but this male detests baseball, and is at best lukewarm toward any televised sport. I would much rather spend my time cooking, or writing, or reading, or watching DVDs.

Now being from Massachusetts, I would prefer the Red Sox take the World Series, but there is no way in Hell that I would want to actually watch it happening.

So Pbblblbltth :p to male stereotypes!

I don't like baseball either... though I'm quite fond of a good football game. However, not to the point where it surpasses the importance of well... much of anything. I like shopping for clothes, and can spend way too much time doing so. Same with interior decorating... everything involving aesthetics really.

I myself would much rather be playing sports then watching them. I remember on Super Bowl Sunday my brothers and I would be outside playing our own game of football instead of watching the game with the adults. That's how I prefer LIFE, as a matter of fact. I'd rather be doing the thing rather then sitting back and watching others do it.

Me too... but the opportunity isn't really there....

I don't think my males are stereo-typical. They are all different, depending on who they are. They just don't get much deeper then the conversations they are in. There's not really any underlying truth to them.

Is this how you view all men? :(

I myself would much rather be playing sports then watching them. I remember on Super Bowl Sunday my brothers and I would be outside playing our own game of football instead of watching the game with the adults. That's how I prefer LIFE, as a matter of fact. I'd rather be doing the thing rather then sitting back and watching others do it.

Kind of like writing, eh? :)

There are some differences in the meaning men and women apply to some words.
When women say the word "little" to describe something, it's often a term of endearment("what a cute little house"). For men the word is often a subtle way to dismiss something (what's this little project you've got going here?").

Are there more differences or similarities between men and women?

One difference with women is that they process langauge -- you might say -- more deeply. If you look at an fMRI of a woman's brain when she is being spoken to, both sides of the brain light up, it's no the case with men. This might explain why miscommication between the sexes is so common. Men sometimes don't think about what they are saying; that it might be insensitive or just plain ignorant. Women sometimes don't realize that what a man says is just that, there's nothing to read into.

I find it just the opposite.

How many times have men been told, "we're just friends?"

Men actually mean what they say.

Women do not.

Do tell.

Actually that was my point. Men's words can often be taken at face value, but woman sometimes read too much into it. And then there's the problem of men not understanding woman because they aren't reading enough into what they are saying. I don't mean to sound for or against either sex, really the problem can goes both ways.

Women: Honey, can you take out the trash for me?

Men: No.

--------------------------------------------------------

Men: Honey, can you get me a glass of water?

Women: I've got things to do.

Men: It's just a glass. I'm thirsty.

Women: I'm busy here; can't you see?

Men: All I want is a cup of water.

Women: Do you have legs? Go get it yourself.

Men: Just one?

Women. NO!

Woman: "Honey can you get me a glass of water."

Man: "No."

Woman: I can't believe this. I ask him to do one simple for me, one simple thing. Is this how it's always going to be?

_______________

Man:"Honey can you get me a glass of water?"

Woman: "I'm busy."

Man: ........ "Please."

Men: God, if I do this one simple task--one simple task--she's going to force me to a thousand more simple tasks. Let's not go there.

Hehe, this is a fun argument.

And it's again wandering off topic, from designing characters of the opposite gender to gender bashing.

Yeah, ain't it grand?

That's not what I wanted this forum to become. And NO that's not how I view men, Eyezforyou, I'm a happily married woman, and the reason why I began this thread was so I could give my wonderful male characters more depth, I'm just not sure how.
You are all funny though, I will admit.

Gender bashing? Who was bashing another's gender? I was telling the truth (through dialogue) on what I hear and see in real life. Only when you tell the truth will your story have much more impact. As Stephen King once said, you must tell it how it is, without sugar-coating anything with all the flaws and blemishes--only then will your readers truly be able to relate to your characters, and care for them; for the world is not made up of black & white, but gray (yellow, pink, orange, green)--just like us.

Read our dialogue, again, Lily.

That's how you give them depth.

Tell the truth.

Or you can go this route:

Men: Honey, I love you. God, you're the goddess of my life.

Women: I love you to. I can't live without you.

Men: How will I be able to survive without you?

Women: I know. I can't stand the thought of ever leaving. You are a beautiful, beautiful man, which no man can ever surpass.

Men: You are the light of my life.

Women: I can't live without you.

Men: Neither can I.

Women: You are the sunshine the fills my soul.

Men: Same here.

Women: Jesus Christ, I love you.

Men: I love you, babe.

Women: You complete me.

Men: So do you.

Women: I love you.

Men: I love you.

Women: God, I love you.

Men: So do I.

Women: I love you.

Men: I love you.

Women: Love you.

*snuggles*

It's up to you, Lily.

Compare that crappy dialogue I just wrote to Stephen King's knack for ear, in his short story, Children of the Corn:

"Where are we, anyway?"

"Nebraska."

She gave him a cold, neutral look. "Yes, Burt. I know we're in Nebraska, Burt. But where the hell are we?

"You've got the road atlas. Look it up. Or can't you read?"

"Such wit. This is why we got off the turnpike. So we could look at three hundred miles of corn. And enjoy the wit of wisdom of Burt Robeson."

No gender bashing here either. I thought it might be relevent (if not foolish) to point a few differences between the way men and women communicate. Wasn't saying was one way was better than the other.

Hmm, lots of assumptions being made today.