New here-

In the story forums, general fiction in particular, are the forums blocked from search engines and non-members? If not, it's my understanding that publishers will not accept a piece as "first rights".

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Adrian

first, this got double posted by mistake, so you can delete the contents of the other one, before anyone replies to it, so you won't have to be checking both for replies...

as to your question, the forum threads are all open to search engines and anyone who comes to the site, so you don't want to post an entire work that you intend to submit to publishers...

some sites have what they consider to be 'locked' sections where only members can go, but since anyone can become a member, i just don't see that it's any kind of a solution...

yes, some publishers won't take a work that has been posted anywhere on the net, since it's then available for free and they want to sell stuff that can't be found anywhere else... there's a lot of controversy among folks who use these sites, re whether it really makes any difference or not, but my feeling is that it's way better to be safe, than sorry and erring on the side of caution is the wisest path to take...

so, just post a small excerpt for help/review and never post huge chunks or an entire work here or anywhere on the net, if you hope to see it published one day...

hope this helps... and welcome to the forums!... love and hugs, maia

Thanks Mamma-

I'm a refuge from another workshop where goblins have taken over. I do publish yet I need feedback and the kindness of writers.

The issue is how to fool the spiders.

I'm wondering if a piece's title is changed, and the publisher Googles the title you've submitted, and the two don't match...you can see were I'm going. Said editor would have to Google a paragraph before the spiders caught on.

Maybe the goblins will leave.

Meanwhile, I'll just wander around a while, check out the Jacuzzi and be on my way.

Adrian

As mamma says, if you post a substantial portion of your work, even in a restricted forum, it is considered published. Even if you fools the spiders, you are technically in breach of any "first publication rights" contract you enter into. That is not something I would recommend.

I'd suggest posting only relatively short excerpts for review. The best choice is some section you feel you are having trouble with.

You aren't going to get in depth reviews of an entire novel in any case. A short story is a different matter, but you're still going to get the most depth from an excerpt of digestible size. Reviewers are volunteers, with a great deal of material to cover. We do our best in the time we have.

It is possible to get around this problem by posting only draft copies on the web for critique, not the final work that will be submitted to publishers.

Thanks Cogito-

Most of my trash, when it works, is short, tight ,quick pieces. It would be hard to parse them out in small portions. At best, a reviewer would be going, huh?

you are technically in breach of any "first publication rights" contract you enter into. That is not something I would recommend.

I feel the chill of an attorney's cold lifeless breath on the back of my neck. LOL.

Baron- what you say is interesting. My first drafts don't resemble a finished product - I revise 'em 'til the milkman cums.

I'll keep thinking out loud. Thanks again.

Adrian

To clarify - all writing posted in the correct areas (currently called "The Review Room") should not turn up in the search results. They could about six months ago, but we changed it so all posted writing is only viewable by members.

Baron, a draft which looks essentially like the final product in substance would probably be a deal breaker for a publisher contracting for first publication rights.

I'm moving this thread to Writing Issues -> Publishers. The Suggestions and Feedback forum is for questions and recommendations about the site itself.

There is a lot of paranoia about this, and it gets fueled by opinions from people who don't actually publish themselves.

I have to go with Baron on this one. Excerpts are considered "works in progress". Workshopping is no more considered prior publication than rehearsals disqualify a performance as a "premier".

But here's the thing. Can anybody cite a single specific instance of somebody losing a sale because they workshopped it on the internet?

Part of the problem is that there is not an 'industry standard' one look to with this concern.

Some factors to consider:
1. Are you posting excepts or an entire project?
2. Is the project searchable? )For example, can key phrases or titles or name be searched and found via google).
3. Is the forum password protected, and what does it mean by "members only" viewing?
4. What are your ultimate objectives for the project and what markets do you intend to submit to (if any)?

Some publishers are specific in this area:
Double-Edged Publishing: For the many student and new authors, it is important to keep in mind that stories and poems posted on blogs and discussion boards have been published. If it is available on the Internet to the general audience, it is published and must be submitted as a reprint.

POSTS TO CRITIQUE GROUPS ARE NOT CONSIDERED PUBLISHED if a password and special group membership are required to read the item. Likewise, inclusion in symposium or workshop collections with limited distribution is not considered published. However, if the item is easily available to the world at large, it is published.

Here is another situation:
Baen Books has Baen's Bar, a forum where writers post their works, receive crits and suggestions from members, and those that attract the attention of the Baen editors that regularly visit the site are occasionally considered/picked up from the 'electronic slush' for publication in the magazine or even novels. Baen's Universe (the publishers pro-rate paying ezine) in its guidelines recommends new authors to go through the Baen's Bar route, as they reserve a space in each edition for 'introducing new authors'. See: Jim Baen's Universe (http://www.baensuniverse.com/subguide.html)

Terry

I think that it should be mentioned that poetry can be viewed differently to short stories or novels. Compilations of poems that are published often include poems that have individually been published elsewhere. In fact the publication of individual poems in magazines, etc. is an aid to the sales of the compilation.

Also with short stories, if a particularly story has brought attention to a writer through previous publishing then this will not rule out that story being used in a published collection.

true, but collections of poems or short stories by unknown new writers will next to never be taken on by paying publishers, as there's just no market for 'em... though vanity publishers and other self-publishing venues will take on anything, as long as you pay the freight...

true, but collections of poems or short stories by unknown new writers will next to never be taken on by paying publishers, as there's just no market for 'em... though vanity publishers and other self-publishing venues will take on anything, as long as you pay the freight...


As I said, allowing individual poems and short stories to be published in magazines or on the web can help to promote the work. If an agent or publisher sees evidence that they can get sufficient sales then they will publish a new writer, which brings back to the point of my post. I had no intention of entering into a debate about how possible it is to get published as a new poet or short story writer, and if your view is correct then all those who are trying mught just as well give up. My point was that using the web to promote work by publishing individual short stories or poems does not stop those works being included in published collections and therefore the chances of publication would not be prejudiced by the first rights issue, which is what this thread is about.

Like I said

Can anybody cite a single specific instance of somebody losing a sale because they workshopped it on the internet?

Like I said
Quote:
Can anybody cite a single specific instance of somebody losing a sale because they workshopped it on the internet?


I believe the question is where and under what conditions is the piece being workshopped? And how much of the piece is being posted. Not the fact that it is workshopped.

The analogy of rehersals mentioned earlier--are those rehersals complete run-through performances, consistently open and easily accessible and to the public at large and for free without restriction? Or is it not regularly accessible, restricted access to seats to view the rehersal, individual scenes being practiced only as they're being devloped, etc.?

Is posting a piece for comments on a blog, unrestricted, the same as posting on a blog with restricted access, or a forum that is not searchable and restricted to members?

To better answer the question posed, what are the paramaters of "workshopped" on the internet.

For example, my crit group is hosted on another forum. It requires a password to enter the forum, and access to the section of the forum that contains our crit group's posts (of members' works in progress) is limited to the administrator and the individual members of the crit group, not the forum members at large, nor is it able to be searched on the internet (via google for example)

I've had three stories and ten articles published in paying markets that were workshopped through that group. So yes, something 'workshopped' on the internet can be sold for "first north american rights" and/or "first electronic rights". I am not sure it makes a difference but I will note that the sales mentioned were on the order of 1/2 a cent per word, $0.25 per anthology sold, or a flat dollar amount, as opposed to 5 cents or more per word/pro rates.

On the other hand, I can list an example, where a short story that had been posted on an unrestricted blog was considered a reprint by a paying market for submission purposes, affecting potential payment for said work. The author decided not to pursue publication with that market.

LinRobinson, I hope I am correct in concluding we basically agree, except for what is considered, or the parameters are, of a piece being workshopped on the intenet.

Terry

My understanding is that password protected material doesn't show up. I think much of it depends on how anti-spider stuff is done in the site design.


I don't keep posing the question to be argumentative, I think it's a really illustrative question: can anybody site a specific instance of this being a problem?

My understanding is that password protected material doesn't show up. I think much of it depends on how anti-spider stuff is done in the site design.

I don't keep posing the question to be argumentative, I think it's a really illustrative question: can anybody site a specific instance of this being a problem?

I answered in a previous post. More specifically it occured with respect to The Sword Review. I also quoted the policy of Double-Edged Publishing with respect to the issue, which thus clarified the situation for those who submit to the publisher's various ezines/magazines, but I will repost the exceprt from DEP's guidelines here:

For the many student and new authors, it is important to keep in mind that stories and poems posted on blogs and discussion boards have been published. If it is available on the Internet to the general audience, it is published and must be submitted as a reprint.

POSTS TO CRITIQUE GROUPS ARE NOT CONSIDERED PUBLISHED if a password and special group membership are required to read the item. Likewise, inclusion in symposium or workshop collections with limited distribution is not considered published. However, if the item is easily available to the world at large, it is published.

The situation was discussed in the The Sword Review's forum with the editors quite some time back, about a year ago if I recall accuratly.

Terry

But that's not a paying market, is it?

I think free ezines care about that stuff more than regular magazines.

And my original question still stands. Has anybody actually lost a sale because of this?

I ask that because people opine one way or the other, but I've never heard of anybody saying "I or somebody I know missed out on a sale because of something on a writing critique site" or whatever.

I'll respond to your question with another.

Would you like to be the one who finds out that a publisher killed a deal because in the publisher's opinion, the first publication contract had been violated?

It may be an interesting question, exactly where the line is drawn in this matter, but wouldn't you agree it's much better to err on the side of safety?

But that's not a paying market, is it?

I think free ezines care about that stuff more than regular magazines.

And my original question still stands. Has anybody actually lost a sale because of this?

I ask that because people opine one way or the other, but I've never heard of anybody saying "I or somebody I know missed out on a sale because of something on a writing critique site" or whatever.

The Sword Review is a paying market (or was...it merged with Dragons Knights and Angels in January 2008--both SF/Fantasy focused magazines published by Double-Edged Publishing--to become MindFlights--which remains a paying market. Not pro rates (1/2 cent per word).

I think that part of the reason that it is not a commonly encountered issue is two fold:

1. Many writers who begin a piece or feel their writing is good enough to seek publication, they begin to become wary of such things, and avoid the problem to begin with.
2. Editors are unlikely to take the time to explain that this piece has been previously published (if they did google an author's name, title, opening line, etc.) why they rejected a piece, they'll send out a form rejection.

I am not arguing or even trying to imply that every editor checks for such things consistently or often, or that it is a common practice at all. I'd agree that the odds are against it. However with the ease and speed of such searches, it's not that much of an effort. Logically, it wouldn't be done for every piece that comes across the slush pile anyway, but only those that are on the final cut for publication...that the publisher is paying out to the author for first rights, be they print, electronic, North American, or any combination.

However, isn't posting a piece on a personal and unrestricted blog, seeking comments for example, using first electronic rights? Even if one goes back and deletes the piece in question upon deciding to seek a market to publish it?

Cogito wrote: It may be an interesting question, exactly where the line is drawn in this matter, but wouldn't you agree it's much better to err on the side of safety?

Isn't it then an ethical issue as well? The author is signing a contract, stating that he is selling the first rights to the publisher, when he knows in essence, he isn't.

Terry

But that's not a paying market, is it?

I think free ezines care about that stuff more than regular magazines.

And my original question still stands. Has anybody actually lost a sale because of this?

I ask that because people opine one way or the other, but I've never heard of anybody saying "I or somebody I know missed out on a sale because of something on a writing critique site" or whatever.


I'd rather err on the side of caution myself and thing Cogito has a rather valid point.

It may be an interesting question, exactly where the line is drawn in this matter, but wouldn't you agree it's much better to err on the side of safety?

Do you know how many people are hit and killed by automobiles on the streets every single day? Yet despite the many anecdotes, and the statistics, I walk into the streets anyway.

Here we are talking about something that apparently everybody thinks you should be afraid of, but nobody has ever had it happen or even knows anybody it happens to.

So let's not be silly.


The reason I ask the question is that writing advice, particularly from non-professionals is often repeated and sounds very heavily real...but there is nothing to back it up.

Now we've reached the point of, "well, maybe it never happens but you just have to be really careful about this things anyway." I got past that one when I went to kindergarten.

It's an abstract problem at most and people think it sounds "inside" to kvetch about it. I continue to hold that it's not something to freak out about.

Nevertheless, I will continue to advise caution. I also urge people to look both ways before they cross the street. And I'm not a professional crossing guard, either, but I still feel I have cause to advise prudence.

If you will look back in the thread, you will see that TWErwin, a published author, went to some detail addressing your position.

Even though you demand specifics, you are making some sweeping generalizations yourself: "everybody" thinks you should be afraid of it, "nobody" has ever had it happen...

Nevertheless, I will continue to advise caution. I also urge people to look both ways before they cross the street. And I'm not a professional crossing guard, either, but I still feel I have cause to advise prudence.

If you will look back in the thread, you will see that TWErwin, a published author, went to some detail addressing your position.

Even though you demand specifics, you are making some sweeping generalizations yourself: "everybody" thinks you should be afraid of it, "nobody" has ever had it happen...

I am a published author. I've been writing professionally for more than thirty five years and so has Lin. So what is your point?

Do you know how many people are hit and killed by automobiles on the streets every single day? Yet despite the many anecdotes, and the statistics, I walk into the streets anyway.

Here we are talking about something that apparently everybody thinks you should be afraid of, but nobody has ever had it happen or even knows anybody it happens to.

So let's not be silly.


The reason I ask the question is that writing advice, particularly from non-professionals is often repeated and sounds very heavily real...but there is nothing to back it up.

Now we've reached the point of, "well, maybe it never happens but you just have to be really careful about this things anyway." I got past that one when I went to kindergarten.

It's an abstract problem at most and people think it sounds "inside" to kvetch about it. I continue to hold that it's not something to freak out about.

An example was asked for, and one was given. It was at first dismissed, and then ignored. It just doesn't fit a premise promoted. That's okay. Others can read and decide.

Sure, crossing the street is statistically safe. But doing so foolishly, such as stepping out from between parked cars on a regular basis greatly increases the risk. And one knows that. What folks here are suggesting about first electronic rights, is similar. And once asked, then one knows that.

Again, I would bring up the ethical issue, unless one feels honesty and ethics carry no true value. Realizing what first electronic rights encompass, using them, and then attempting to sell first electronic rights even though one cannot truthfully offer them...

Terry

I am a published author. I've been writing prefessionally for more than thirty five years and so has Lin. So what is your point?My point is that Lin is disparaging any opinions from those who have not published, but ignoring a response from a published writer.

I can respect his point about opinions stated by those of us who have not published, even when he says it so dismissively. But when he chooses not to notice a response from someone with publishing experience, that needs to be pointed out.

I welcome being corrected by someone who has more experience. However, ALL discussions on the forum must be conducted respectfully.

Again, I would bring up the ethical issue, unless one feels honesty and ethics carry no true value.

That doesn't sound very respectful to me. It sounds like trying to imply dishonesty to somebody for disagreeing. By inserting "ethics" into a discussion where they had been raised, nor applied.

Tell you what. Say and do as you please.

That doesn't sound very respectful to me. It sounds like trying to imply dishonesty to somebody for disagreeing. By inserting "ethics" into a discussion where they had been raised, nor applied.

Tell you what. Say and do as you please.

It is a straightforward question. Questions on ethics and honesty are not always comfortable ones. That doesn't make it disrespectful.

Now we've reached the point of, "well, maybe it never happens but you just have to be really careful about this things anyway." I got past that one when I went to kindergarten. Stating views expressed by members who disagree as comparable to a kindergarten mentality. That doesn't sound very respectful to me.

Terry

Well, then maybe you can explain why ethics and honesty suddenly came into the question of whether or not a publisher will refuse work that's been workshopped.

It's not a question of discomfort. It's a question of raising something that had nothing to do with the question, and thus implying dishonest or unethical behavior out of the clear blue sky.


I have a better idea, though. Why dont we just knock this off?

Ethics and honesty enters into the question of whether it is ok if it's posted on a forum but the search engines cannot see it. Whether it turns up in a Google search equates to whether the author "gets caught". So it really isn't out of the blue at all.

Well, then maybe you can explain why ethics and honesty suddenly came into the question of whether or not a publisher will refuse work that's been workshopped.

It's not a question of discomfort. It's a question of raising something that had nothing to do with the question, and thus implying dishonest or unethical behavior out of the clear blue sky.


I have a better idea, though. Why dont we just knock this off?

I don't see how it came out of the clear blue sky.

The post that initiated the topic:

New here-

In the story forums, general fiction in particular, are the forums blocked from search engines and non-members? If not, it's my understanding that publishers will not accept a piece as "first rights".

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Adrian

Part of one of my replies in this topic:

Part of the problem is that there is not an 'industry standard' one look to with this concern.

Some factors to consider:
1. Are you posting excepts or an entire project?
2. Is the project searchable? )For example, can key phrases or titles or name be searched and found via google).
3. Is the forum password protected, and what does it mean by "members only" viewing?
4. What are your ultimate objectives for the project and what markets do you intend to submit to (if any)?

Terry


A section of a later comment in the string:

However, isn't posting a piece on a personal and unrestricted blog, seeking comments for example, using first electronic rights? Even if one goes back and deletes the piece in question upon deciding to seek a market to publish it?


Isn't it then an ethical issue as well? The author is signing a contract, stating that he is selling the first rights to the publisher, when he knows in essence, he isn't.

Terry

I agree.

Varying opinions on the topic have been presented. While I don't necessarily agree with every the observations, comments, and assertions that've been posted, I respect the individual points of view on the issue put forth.

Those who come across this topic can read the discussion and come to their own conclusion, or at least have a few thoughts on the topic to consider.

Time to "knock this off".

Terry

I don't see how it came out of the clear blue sky.

The post that initiated the topic:



Part of one of my replies in this topic:




A section of a later comment in the string:



I agree.

Varying opinions on the topic have been presented. While I don't necessarily agree with every the observations, comments, and assertions that've been posted, I respect the individual points of view on the issue put forth.

Those who come across this topic can read the discussion and come to their own conclusion, or at least have a few thoughts on the topic to consider.

Time to "knock this off".

Terry


If we assume that your advice is good then all of those who want to have their work taken seriously had better stop posting it on the forums, right?

If we assume that your advice is good then all of those who want to have their work taken seriously had better stop posting it on the forums, right?


Lpspider wrote: To clarify - all writing posted in the correct areas (currently called "The Review Room") should not turn up in the search results. They could about six months ago, but we changed it so all posted writing is only viewable by members.
__________________
- Daniel

TWErvin2 wrote: Some factors to consider:
1. Are you posting excepts or an entire project?
2. Is the project searchable? )For example, can key phrases or titles or name be searched and found via google).
3. Is the forum password protected, and what does it mean by "members only" viewing?
4. What are your ultimate objectives for the project and what markets do you intend to submit to (if any)?

TWErvin2 wrote: Varying opinions on the topic have been presented. While I don't necessarily agree with every the observations, comments, and assertions that've been posted, I respect the individual points of view on the issue put forth.

Those who come across this topic can read the discussion and come to their own conclusion, or at least have a few thoughts on the topic to consider.

If you want to know, I believe that someone who posts an entire work (not an excerpt or beginning scene for example), on an open forum (or blog, or website) that requires no password to view (thus open to reading) by anyone on the internet, even if they posted it for review and comments and suggestions (workshopping), then the first electronic rights have been utilized. There are always reprint rights to be sold.

There are other forums that have passwords to enter (often based on avoiding spambots) and then have passwords to get to specific review sites or crit groups. Some writers feel that that second password is necessary, for a variety of reasons. That is the purpose of the "members only viewing" statement. Others may feel that if an item cannot be searched for via google or yahoo by name or key phrases, that is good enough for them. It isn't for me, but it is something that might be of consideration to other writers.

But back to your original statement or question, Baron: If that's what you've decided based upon the discussion in this string, then stop/don't post in the review area. Seriously. It's for each writer to decide.

Terry

If by "taken seriously", you mean "accepted for publication", then you do need to consider the possibility that you will not be able to negotiate for first publication rights.

Not all writing is intended for publication for a profit. Should we take writing less seriously because the author has no plans to submit the work to a publisher?

Many of the members of this and other writing forums are still developing their craft. Of those, some percentage will either decide writing for publication is too much work, or that they don't have something that will fit into the market niches served by publishers. Some only write for their own pleasure, and wish nothing to do with the business of writing.

So work posted while developing your writing style, or work you have no intention of submitting to a publisher, this can be posted. And it will be taken seriously.

But those who plan to submit their work for publication must recognize that there are business considerations, and posting for widespread review prior to submissiom can have consequences on the marketability of the work.

But those who plan to submit their work for publication must recognize that there are business considerations, and posting for widespread review prior to submissiom can have consequences on the marketability of the work.

that is the bottom line here, imo...

where honesty and integrity come in is when/if the writer who has posted a complete work or significant portion of one anywhere on the web is asked by an agent or publisher whether or not the work has been 'published' in any form and says 'no'... that would then be dishonest to some degree and would demontrate a lack of integrity...

whether or not s/he is 'caught' in the lie, by the post having been cached and noticed by the person asking is moot... the point is that it would be a lie, not that it could be proven...

I would, for reasons stated in ealier posts, say that this is really only a significant issue with novels. Personally I hever never published more than a brief extract from a novel on the internet, and would not do so. Poetry and short stories are another issue because the fact that a poem or short story may have already been published in a magazine or whatever does not exclude those works from being a part of published collections.

because the fact that a poem or short story may have already been published in a magazine or whatever does not exclude those works from being a part of published collections

...for books, but not if you want to get that poem/story published in a magazine... in the latter case, cog's comments still hold true...

...for books, but not if you want to get that poem/story published in a magazine... in the latter case, cog's comments still hold true...

Di you read what I posted? You are implying not getting published in a magazine because it will infringe first rghts on getting published in a magazine. Do you read posts before you respond? I stated quite clearly that a short story published in a magazine will not influence the first rights issue over a collection published in a book.

Poetry and short stories are another issue because the fact that a poem or short story may have already been published in a magazine or whatever does not exclude those works from being a part of published collections.

Correct, it would not exclude an author to sell a previously published work as a reprint.

The short story collections (single author and multiple author) I have on my bookshelves, such as those by Orson Scott Card's, are made up of reprints of stories. Single author story collections can contain all new (unpublished) stories, all reprinted stories, or a combination. The same with anthologies made up of stories from several or more authors. It all depends on the what individual publishers of such collections are seeking.

Having used first publication rights (the various typs of first publication rights would be appropriate for another topic) does not exclude an author from seeking to publish the same work as a reprint. It may limit some of the available markets--those not seeking reprints, or the reimbursement level as some publishers pay less. There is nothing wrong for an author to seek and find new paying markets for works they've sold previously. I have. It's a common practice.

A successfully published story can do better (earn more money and reach a greater audience) as a reprint, depending on the market that accepts it (including magazines, ezines, print anthologies, etc.). And a story can be resold as many times as the author can find someone willing to buy/publish it as a reprint.

Terry

no need to get so nasty, baron... i was merely emphasizing the point i made for others, not discounting what you said...

no need to get so nasty, baron... i was merely emphasizing the point i made for others, not discounting what you said...

I apologise, Maia. It was frustration rather than deliberate nastiness but nonetheless out of order.

a most gracious apology... all is forgiven!

love and hugs, m