Alternatives to a sword

Discussion in 'Research' started by EllBeEss, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. Garball

    Garball Banned Contributor

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    How about some sort of antler daggers? She can be very acrobatic with them and easily conceal them.
     
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  2. Okon

    Okon Contributor Contributor

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    I didn't mean for you to take my example literally:). Using imagination again, one of those creatures could have lightweight-yet-razor sharp spines that can be harvested and used as weapons.

    Before you say: "But none of my creatures have razor sharp spines--" What I was really getting at is that you can make anything sound plausible if you write it in reasonably. Most readers of steampunk novels, for example, don't worry about how impractical the technology is. I don't think many care. In fact, going back to the original sword example, you don't even have to TELL people why it's light, or you can give a vague reason: "Crafted by the Lannister's head smith, with the finest ore."

    You can make up most the rules, and break all of the standard ones if you're fair about it. I'm not saying that you SHOULD make up something, especially if you're a stickler for realism despite the light fantasy elements in your story. It's just one of your hundreds of options. I know it can be hard to narrow down things like that. Good luck to you.
     
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  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I like it already! :)

    Poor @minstrel ...but I can't resist... O gwan, Jan, you KNOW you want to...
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
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  4. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    Coming in a little late, I gotta say, I pretty much second what @Bryan Romer said. Of course it depends on what's available (i.e. does she have money to buy weapons, are there weapons shops within a reasonable distance, do the local laws permit buying / carrying weapons etc), so if she's in a big city, she has money, the laws are permissive, and she wouldn't get undue attention for carrying them, why not a longsword / dagger combo?

    Otherwise I'd go with all of the three weapons @Bryan Romer mentioned: the staff she'd have ready in her hand pretty much all the time when she's out and about (it's handy for other things as well and looks inconspicuous), the knife she'd have on her belt at all times, and the rag + rock would probably also dangle on her belt or if she has something flat (e.g. a flat piece of lead or metal big enough to be effective, i.e. roughly 300g / 10oz), a good way to carry such a weapon would be to have the weighted part in her back pocket and the other end in her front pocket (that is, if she has pockets in the first place). That's a good way to carry something like a keychain jack (a great weapon for non-permissive environments).

    She could of course have several of the same weapon, e.g. 2-4 knives in addition to the quarter staff and the rock 'n' sock. Optimal would be to have two knives on her belt (one on each side) and one in each boot so that no matter which position she's in (esp. when she's grappling with someone, a likely eventuality if she's in a dangerous environment), she's likely to be able to reach at least one of them. If she has, say, 3 knives, 2 would probably be in her boots and one on the belt (that'd also look less suspicious if the ones in her boots aren't clearly visible).

    As has been said, all fighting skills take diligent training to learn, but it's not just about learning the physical maneuvers. Perhaps even more important is the mental / psychological adjustments one has to go through in order to grasp the fundamentals of survival in a real violent altercation. You know, notions like if things get violent, it's best to be the first to attack, & fighting fair is for idiots and the dead, & it's better to gouge out someone's eyes than to give them the chance to gain the upper hand (it might be the last thing you do) etc.

    That's just to say that it's a good idea to mention that either her combat training includes that stuff or she learns it from someone else or she learns it herself (usually the hard way). Or she doesn't learn it and lives a very short life. :D
     
  5. MLM

    MLM Banned for trolling

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    She should have a minigun. It would make this all so much simpler.
     
  6. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Contributor

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    Aren't mini guns pretty heavy? And they probably have quite some recoil/knock back whilst firing as well. ;)

    For example, the light version of the M134 weighs about 23 kg (50 pounds) and fires 7.6 mm rounds at 2-6,000 rounds a minute.
     
  7. MLM

    MLM Banned for trolling

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    Obviously it would be mounted on the back of a toyota pick up truck.
     
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  8. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Use a blunderbuss. One shot and then it becomes a lovable club. :D
     
  9. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Contributor

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    And you call that easily concealed and inconspicuous? And what about fighting of potential rapists in taverns, bringing the truck in there is not such a good idea...
     
  10. MLM

    MLM Banned for trolling

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    You can't bring a truck into a bar?

     
  11. Komposten

    Komposten Insanitary pile of rotten fruit Contributor

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    I never said you can't do it, only that it probably is a bad idea.
    While no one is likely to start a brawl, you'd still probably have to wash up the dishes for the coming decade.
     
  12. EllBeEss

    EllBeEss Senior Member

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    She does struggle through the mental side of fighting. It's taking a lot of research but I'm trying to keep that side of it as realistic as possible. She learns most of it herself by stuffing up and almost getting herself/her friends killed.
     
  13. Garball

    Garball Banned Contributor

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    I like the idea of peasant weapons and shuriken (sp). Remember, ninjas rose from peasant revolts. They learned to throw nails long before throwing stars were invented.
     
  14. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    I highly recommend Geoff Thompson's works. His best of the best is a book called Dead or Alive: The Choice is Yours. It covers the psychological side of violent confrontations, situational awareness, including the color codes, the mechanics of fear, the physical effects of adrenaline and how to manipulate them, how the psychology of victims works, how the psychology of assailants works (the book includes several interviews of convicted violent criminals including muggers, rapists, killers, gang members etc), and even has a section on the physical stuff (although some of the attack techniques are a bit outdated, but the Fence and everything related to it are golden).

    That book ought to give you a pretty good idea what it takes to go from a "normal" person to someone with the capacity to defend themselves / their loved ones using violence if need be and it'll also show you what that kind of mentality entails.

    Note that I'm not Geoff, I don't know him, and have no affiliation with him even though I praise that book a lot. :D It's just one that has the whole package presented in a very understandable, clear manner that's easy to internalize and incorporate into your own daily life. I haven't read their books, but I do know other respected authors in the same area are Richard Dimitri, Payton Quinn, Jeff Cooper, Rex Applegate, William Fairbairn etc, so you might wanna check them out too. I did train Rich Dimitri's system, Senshido, for a while, I've seen a couple of his DVDs, and it's also great stuff, just has a somewhat different emphasis than Thompson.


    I'd just be careful with throwing weapons; they're incredibly difficult to use effectively and almost always in fiction / movies their effectiveness is highly exaggerated. Their purpose isn't to injure, but to distract, i.e. create an opening for the thrower to do something else (e.g. draw a proper weapon, escape, or some such). After all, the idea of the shuriken is not to sink into the enemy, but to merely scratch them and fly off into the bushes so the enemy can't yank it out and throw it back, and small cuts and scratches... most won't even notice them when they're in full adrenaline-fueled fighting mode.

    The only way for shuriken and the like to be truly effective is if they're poisoned and the person using them has spent months, even years learning to throw them accurately.

    So if it was me, I'd rather carry a 2nd knife (which I would not throw) in the place of the shuriken / throwing weapons. But that's just my subjective opinion, not the gospel or anything. :cool:
     
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  15. EllBeEss

    EllBeEss Senior Member

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    Thanks. Sounds useful so I'll check it out :)
     
  16. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

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    Something else to bear in mind is that good swords and other combat grade edged weapons were incredibly expensive in medieval times, like luxury car grade expensive. Wearing one would make you an immediate target of every thief and bandit in sight, so that is another factor to consider when choosing what to carry. Knights and soldiers got away with it because they rarely traveled alone, or they were confident of their combat prowess.
     
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  17. EllBeEss

    EllBeEss Senior Member

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    The cost of swords etc was one of the main reasons I started looking at cheaper, simpler alternatives.
     
  18. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Great suggestions, and I agree that in fiction they seem to be almost magical in their ability to kill/injure, etc—but I do think anybody (in medieval times or otherwise) who is a good hunter, can bring down prey by flinging something. (Spear, stones via a sling, poisoned darts, etc.) I think it's possible, with practice, to get quite good at it. Okay, okay, so people also set traps, etc. But the flinging weapons did exist in 'real life'—in some places still do. Surely they would not have done if they hadn't worked? I think the key is practice and a certain talent for accuracy. If the character has these, well let the games begin!

    In some of these cases, the weapons would merely stun, and require a coup-de-grace killing stroke as well, but that would be within a fit, but not overly-strong character's ability. They have disadvantages, for sure—for example, in most cases you'd have to retrieve the weapon before using it again ...which would make it ineffective against a gang of humans. But as a strike and escape sort of thing, it would be better than nothing. And there is no reason somebody couldn't become quite accurate at it, with practice.

    Bows and arrows are the most universally employed weapons throughout the ages, and as long as they are sized properly, anybody can learn to use one. I think that's the weapon I'd choose for my character (along with a set of numchuks for close combat) but that's just me.

    Examples of primitive hunting weapons listed in Wikipedia:
    BTW, it's possible to fend off several angry badgers with a furled golf umbrella...
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2014
  19. TheDapperJack

    TheDapperJack New Member

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    Yeah. All right, you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this?

    [​IMG]

    This...is my BOOMSTICK! It's a twelve gauge double barreled Remington, S-Mart's top-of-the-line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart. YA GOT THAT!?
     
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  20. Bryan Romer

    Bryan Romer Contributor Contributor

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    Throwing axes are the most practical and effective throwing weapon and have been used by everybody from Native Americans (Tomahawk) to Vikings to the Chinese Tongs in America.
     
  21. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    She could use a shortsword (not sure of a real life equivalent). Think of it like a really smaller version of the usual sword, just light enough for her to fight with one hand. A short sword and a staff? Or would that not work?

    @Bryan Romer- I like the idea, though she should probably still have another weapon to fight with after flinging the tomahawk/other throwing weapon at a bad guy.
     
  22. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    @jannert, oh yeah, I was thinking about things like shuriken, throwing knives (you know, the light ones made for throwing) etc. Didn't even consider spears and such, but yeah, they're a slightly different thing, but, then again, spears and tomahawks etc. are also very useful as "regular" melee weapons, i.e. for stabbing / hacking etc. instead of throwing, and it would be much easier to learn to use one effectively by wielding it instead of throwing it.

    Even with spears, axes etc. I see two big drawbacks: it takes longer to learn to throw so accurately and consistently under pressure that you'd be wise to trust your life to that one throw, and second, when you throw it, you lose it unless you score a perfect hit, your target goes down, and you can retrieve it (of course, you could carry a 2nd weapon to be used after you've thrown the spear / axe). There's even the danger of the target prying off the weapon and turning it on the thrower.

    Still, there are weapon types that can be useful when thrown, but, again, I see some limitations with them. I mean, if I was given a knife and I got to choose my opponent's weapon for a duel, I'd probably give them something they'd have to throw at me. I do think that'd increase my chances of success vs. going against someone wielding a knife / sword / axe / spear.

    Imho things like blowguns + darts (esp. poisoned) etc. aren't in the same category as throwing weapons as such since they're closer to actual projectile weapons.
     
  23. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    as per some of the earlier comments, the Bo (5-6foot staff) or Jo (3-4foot staff) would be a good idea, i have one of my characters who mixes this with bare fist fighting, which he practises as well as swordplay, from what i can gather, it is fairly easy to pick up, and before you say distance, that is why he trains in bare fist, because it is useful alongside it (coming from experience as a brown belt at Shotokan Karate, we were taught how to grab, deflect and utilise in a basic extent how to use a staff in one of our many Kata)
     
  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, yes ...the issue of having to retrieve the weapon is fine if you're hunting, not so great if you're fighting. I guess I was mainly getting at the notion of accuracy. I think people who throw these kinds of weapons in real-life situations, in order to bring down food for the table, probably get very good at it. The Harlem Globetrotters of Weapon-Chucking.

    Me? As a fantasy female warrior who is trained but not all that hefty, I'd pick a bow and arrows AND a set of numchuks. And practice at both till I got to Carnegie Hall. Numchuks can be deadly in close combat, if they're wielded properly—and they're not expensive to make. My old roommate (male) was practicing with his in the garage and actually knocked himself out cold with them. Woke up on the garage floor with a huge knot just above his eyebrow. He gave them up after that, and wouldn't let me play with them either. Boo.
     
  25. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    @jannert, numchucks = nunchakus?

    The r0ck-in-a-sock (or any length of rope / leather / cloth attached to a weighted piece) is almost the same weapon, just kinda like a... garage version. :D
    I love my keychain jack and I've actually gotten pretty accurate with it with very little practice (I think I've practiced with it like three times but I'm pretty sure I could hit the tip of a guy's chin with it at a conversation distance).
    For some reason, it feels a slightly safer weapon to practice with than chucks. I mean, I did play around a lot with my dad's chucks, and man, I smacked myself in the head, face, nuts, you name it, I smacked it, trying to go all Bruce Lee on the chucks.
     

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