New line after "I said" or "He/She said"

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by Deleted member 11749, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. Good points you have here. I will start by saying the structure isn't a given. For example, there are longer sequences of back and forth dialogue. Sometimes they are short back and forth tidbits between two people, so I don't exactly have to explain who is speaking. So the rhythm as you put it, which I assume you meant the mannerisms I included in that excerpt, will not always be there. In fact, I believe more often than not, they will not be there. If there is a long, winding conversation, I will mostly keep "He said" and "I said" out; but if I feel like readers need a reminder, I will go for it and say "I said," or even "I said:" and then have a new line. Or I will simply add the "I said" after a line of description mid conversation, as I showed in the excerpt.

    Edit: Thanks folks. I will have to change it back to "conventional" in this regard. Appreciate the feedback.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2014
  2. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    There is nothing more disconcerting to a reader than not knowing who is speaking a line. If they have to backtrack even for a second, or start counting speakers to figure out who said what, you've lost them. I'd say —in general, anyway —mucking with conventionality when it comes to paragraphing and attributing dialogue is not the most reader-friendly way to present your story.
     
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  3. matt_kicking

    matt_kicking New Member

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    I think that, like many questions re ideas, it can be answered by saying "It's your book, you can write it how you like".

    I remember The Road by Cormac McCarthy had no speech marks in it at all (unless I had a defective copy??). It's quite possible he did this for a reason I completely missed, but it didn't really make a difference one way or another, other than to make it stand out in my mind.

    For example:

    We'll go up this way, said the man.

    Why, said the boy.
     
  4. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    That's just his style. He mentioned in an interview that he doesn't like quotation marks and semicolons because they clutter up the page.
     
  5. matt_kicking

    matt_kicking New Member

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    Does he do it in all his books? Can't remember off the top of my head.

    Point being though that it doesn't make a huge difference to the reader.
     
  6. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    Yeah, he does. I know that some readers do care about this sort of thing because they find not having quotes distracting, which is a shame. It's their loss.

    Jose Saramago takes this idea to a completely different level. He has multiple speakers in one sentence, and the only way the reader knows that the speaker has changed is that the first letter of the dialogue spoken by a new speaker is capitalized. Here's an example from his novel Blindness:
     
  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I don't agree. Not only would it matter to me as a reader, it's almost a given (unless you were writing poetry), if you weren't already a well known writer, not many publishers or agents would read past the first page.

    I get it people are being very artsy here, saying a writer can take any and all literary licenses for the sake of 'wanting to'.

    I think that kind of advice does a disservice to a writer who is playing with the tools of an expert before they have figured out how to use the basic tools of a beginner.

    Just sayin....
     
  8. Yeah distinguished authors obviously could get away with much more. I am but a petty aspirer; therefore I have not much choice besides to abide by the confinements set forth. It's logical, and likely not a good way to try to stand out amongst other manuscripts sent to literary agents.

    I have already gone through half of my final draft and changed it. Done deal.

    But I have to confess, while I understand the negative feedback and agree with it, the extent to which some have shown true despise alarms me. I don't think this is a clearcut aspect to a novel that "ruins" it by any means. Some of these replies seem to suggest it is degrading, in a sense, in comparison to other (all) modern works. As the writer of the piece in question, I am quite sad at having to change the dialogue format back to normal. It's a part of the novel that I very much liked.

    A word I can use to describe the aesthetic of the formation of words: symmetry.

    I find the "conventional" form of words displeasing at times. The paragraph that begins with narration, becomes dialogue, and concludes with narration--that to me personally does not carry the same aesthetic. Also, I made an effort to explain that the dialogue was set up in a manner that clearly indicated who was speaking. Perhaps some of you misunderstood.

    While we are on the topic, of course straying from convention in such a way CAN have a positive effect. If we are discussing all works, I am sure there are some and perhaps many authors that have violated convention in dialogue structure and yet wrote well. It's by no means a deal breaker. The consensus in this thread is correct to a degree, but beyond that, I feel slightly insulted at the underhand tongue-in-cheek. I am not attempting to be "artsy" to play with the tools as if I were an "expert." To be frank, if you suggest so, I feel as if the accusation should be reversed. Who could possibly assess the information I have presented you with and conclude such a thing? What knowledge do you have about me? And if it were true, I would hardly visit this forum and ask for feedback.
     
  9. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    McCarthy and Saramago have been writing like that since their very first novels. So it's not certainly not necessary to follow convention in order to get published.
     
  10. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I don't despise anything about this @jwatson. I'm just being honest.
     
  11. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Well, James Joyce broke just about every convention there was, and HE is still getting published. What I have managed to read of his output is worthwhile AND pleasurable. BUT he's not easy to read, as many on this forum have attested in past discussions.

    You can choose to trade readability off for lots of other things. If you're truly a writerly genius like Joyce, McCarthy and others, you'll get away with it. But it will be a trade-off.

    Keep in mind there are people (on this forum) who still think using dialogue for thoughts is a huge no-no, and it means you will never ever get published. When you start deciding to leave out quotation marks in dialogue, you're really pushing the envelope!

    My own personal preference has always been to go for readability and clarity—both in my writing and my reading. Whenever I encounter italics used for thoughts I have no problem understanding what is happening.

    On the other hand, when I read badly-attributed dialogue, or too much dialogue with no attribution at all—such as in the Saramago excerpt above—I lose the thread of the conversation altogether. I'll plow along for a while, hoping it will eventually all make sense, but being confused has already taken me out of the story. I will probably stop reading if my confusion extends for more than a page or two.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
  12. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    If you are just talking about narrating dialogue in a different manner, I believe that to be a different case from the OP example.

    So, looking at "The Road", McCarthy, and "Blindness", Saramago, both write in past tense 3rd person narration that has the narrator telling us what was said rather than interjecting dialogue into the narration. The convention is not absolutely violated, rather the story is being told differently and in those cases the shifted convention makes some sense. The missing quotation marks and unconventional dialogue format is not something undertaken willy nilly.

    It doesn't mean anyone can do anything they want and it is acceptable. It needs to make sense. Tell me how putting the tags on another line makes sense. It's not aesthetic, except perhaps with some kinds of poetry where the words are put on the page as part of the piece.
     
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  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    All three of these authors are acclaimed. To say they initially wrote unconventionally (if they did), ergo it's not an issue neglects to consider how many people didn't write conventionally and were also never read by more than a handful of friends.

    I don't see a budding Joyce or McCarthy in the OP. I see someone unsure of his choices, not someone making calculated choices:
    "Almost wasn't sure" describes the OP.

    I'm sorry I'm being seen as a killjoy. I'm concerned the advice to, 'go ahead, spread your wings' might be bad advice in this situation.
     
  14. Now you're just picking apart and nitpicking. I didn't come into this thread thinking I would have to argue semantics.

    You exemplify why I have visited this forum less and less over the years. I hate to say it, but writers tend to be stuck up.

    When I initially made this thread, I was embarrassed in advance at knowing people like you, for example, would react in such a way. That is why I framed it as unsure. In fact, I simply rambled to indicate that I myself am not an authority on the matter. I wanted to avoid conflict with those who would assume that I believe I am indisputably correct. Why? Because it seems as though on this forum, any time someone creates a thread about so and so, it becomes scrutinized and critiqued by a bunch of writers, who each of which think they know best. For example, I came into this thread asking about the dialogue structure. Someone commented on my mannerisms/description, suggesting I remove.

    I am not claiming to be a great writer. I don't even know what the word "writer" means. I am not trying to be "artsy," in fact I detest the word "art." Openly suggesting my writing is lackluster is again insulting. Consider that you yourself suggested I was trying to be an "expert." It sounds the opposite--you are claiming to have superior knowledge.

    The explanation of why the tags are not on the same line as the dialogue? There isn't one. Because no one here at least has mentioned a book where it's presented in such a way. What happens when the first book written in such a way is published? Does it become more acceptable then? Who is to say that within the next hundred years, someone--not me--gets a book published with such dialogue structure, and isn't belittled by the public?

    Your snide remarks don't encourage me to visit here more often than I do. It's unfortunate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2014
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I don't know what you mean by this. Your method of presenting dialogue is extremely nonstandard. It will therefore almost certainly make it impossible to get your novel, or at least your firs novel, traditionally published. I don't see anyone despising anything or calling anything degrading. If you wanted to publish a novel as a scroll rather than as pages, or with the words printed right to left, or some other nonstandard format, it wouldn't be an evil thing, but it would similarly keep you from getting published.
     
  16. I stated several times that I was changing it.

    Other posters gave examples of works that challenged convention, not in a similar way, but making the point that it could be tolerable.
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    So...where's the issue? You're angry that people told you that it would cause problems with getting published?
     
  18. No. He/she stated their opinion several times. A simple: "I have never seen it done this way. It makes no sense to me. I would do it this way instead." That's fine.

    But telling others to pipe down when they say, "Hmm, you know, this could work. Stuff like this happens sometimes." That's not right. He/she is entitled to their opinion, and is correct to the extent that, yes, if I am trying not to look like an idiot to a literary agent, I should refrain from such.

    Telling people who entertained my inquiry that they should not reply with less rejection to the idea? Explicitly saying it's not good to encourage novice writers to act like they are "experts," more or less. That's insulting, is it not? And again quoting and nitpicking the OP, as if I wrote it expecting to be so emphatically critiqued, word for word, by someone trying to discern if I am unsure or calculated.

    Or is that a regular occurrence on this website?
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not sure who you're referring to here. But people can say what they please--people can say that your idea isn't so bad, and other people can say that people shouldn't say that, and other people can ignore that and say it anyway.

    What I'm reacting to is your condemnation of the whole forum. It makes even less sense to me now that I realize that apparently you're condemning it based on the words of one person?
     
  20. I lurk and I see it. People don't stand up to it like I did here.

    I am surprised such underhand and snide remarks are tolerated.

    ---
    "I don't see a budding Joyce or McCarthy in the OP. I see someone unsure of his choices, not someone making calculated choices."

    No, I am not like those 2 great writers. Thanks for using that fact to support yourself in telling others that mentioning writers who have broken convention is irrelevant.

    Also, thanks for quoting my OP and bolding the parts that truly make me look like an idiot.
     
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  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You may have missed the fact that I wasn't the one who did that. So why are you thanking me?

    Different people do different things. The forum isn't collectively responsible for what's said by the people that annoy you.
     
  22. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    That's a lot of paranoia against a simple honest opinion. I'm outta here.
     
  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I think your original points got responded to quite well at the start of this thread. Some people were bothered by how you set up your dialogue, some less so. I hope you got the answers you were looking for; it seems you did, because you said you were making changes.

    It's a characteristic of the forum (any forum) that a thread may trigger related issues though, and that's the way it goes. This thread didn't get TOO far off track, in that it did stick to the issue of formatting prose.

    I don't think @GingerCoffee (or anybody else) meant to be snide to you in any way. Ginger just likes to anchor her points as firmly as possible, and she was making the point that playing around with format is probably not a great idea if you're not a genius writer. Without targeting you in any way at all, I agree with her!

    I love this forum, by the way, warts and all. I feel I've made lots of friends here. That doesn't mean I'm equally fond of everybody, or that there aren't a few people who occasionally (or frequently) get right up my hooter. But that's life. You take what you can from what people say, and basically ignore the stuff that annoys you or doesn't resonate as 'true.'
     
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  24. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    The Reapers Are The Angels by Alden Bell is exactly the same, so its not the first time its been used.

    OP, Mayhap i suggest that you speak to agents and/or publishers about this manuscript and see what they say, after all, these are the people who are going to be taking it on, and may be able to tell you why it does/doesn't work?
     
  25. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    What does POV have to do with it? This is a stylistic issue. Besides, Saramago mixes first and third person in the narration.

    Like I said before, McCarthy doesn't use quotation marks because they clutter up the page. It's purely a personal preference. There's no other reason for it.
     

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