The word passion has really undergone some changes over the years. Now, it's used to mainly describe fleeting desire. The passion at the beginning of a relationship. But it's roots are agony, endure, and a strong compelling emotion. Which I think under these descriptions can be used to describe a writer, certainly me. I usually have to write to find my passion. I don't generally get excited about my work except in the initial idea, first sentence, or half way into a scene. The rest is maneuvering through a labyrinth.
To me, passion is a compulsion. Pure and simple. If I can't put something aside and eventually forget about it then that's passion. I rarely experience hype over anything. Just lots of interests that won't go away no matter how much I neglect them.
Then I'd say it's largely semantics (perhaps with some differing nuances) because I've been writing around 20 years, seriously for about 6, and @KaTrian and I are currently putting the finishing touches on... I'd say about 20th draft of the current WIP (around 100k, one of about a dozen WIPs of equal length that are on the back burner until this one's ready to be served, to carry on with the cooking motif) before starting the 21st draft/edit. We've made so many changes and edits, the plot is almost unrecognizable from the original; can't afford to be precious at this point. And yeah, we've taken our licks from betas (who've luckily been gracious enough to explain why they didn't like a certain part or why they did) and even one who took one look at it and basically thought it was shit and that was it. None of that has detracted from our passion, that burn to write, and we regularly make sacrifices just to write a bit more, so... call it what you will, doesn't matter as long as the flame keeps burning and the stories keep coming (or more like improving). Maybe this is what you mean by having our craft on a slow burner and we just see it as a higher flame, i.e. the difference lies in semantics.
Agent Andrea Somberg describes her ideal client as "someone who is passionate and excited about their work but also recognizes that this is a business." Maybe that's the balance we should be striving for?
And the flip side. An ideal agent is someone who can encourage and promote the business potential of somebody's work, but can also get excited and passionate about it.
Yes, that strikes a chord. I've also beta-read for people who aren't interested in any kind of revision. While there does come a point where every writer needs to stop tinkering and revising, that point is not the minute you hand a first draft to somebody for feedback.
The way you are putting it across is discouraging new writers. Yes you need skill but you don't need skill to start writing. This skill can be learned.
Definitely. But you stated that passion was far more important than skill, which is not what you're saying here. I stand by my earlier statement. If you don't have the skill, all the "passion" in the world will not get you read. Anyone who sees that as discouraging rather than "Well, I'd better work on my skills then." probably won't last as a writer anyway.
Not at first, unless you're terribly lucky, but who comes out of their mom as a skilled writer? I haven't met any (I have met those who think they are born with the skills of a master writer but... they never are). Passion is what drives us passionate ones to study, learn, do all the stuff we do here (write, edit, beta, get beta-read etc), day in, day out, year in, year out, and that way acquire skill. Some others may be driven to gain those skills by other motivations like money, fame, academic interest, or what have you, but a passionate writer does not, by definition = bad writer. Furthermore, a dispassionate writer does not, by definition = good writer. Comparing passionate, unskilled writers to dispassionate, good writers is like comparing enthusiastic but crap athletes to dispassionate Olympic champions. How about comparing passionate Olympic champions to dispassionate Olympic champions, passionate master writers to dispassionate master writers? I have no idea who is better and I don't know how it matters anyway, but I'm happy with my passion; it makes even the tedious tasks enjoyable, all the frustration and wood-shedding bearable, the critiques motivating etc. I'd imagine someone trying to gain skill just to e.g. get rich and famous wouldn't last as long as someone who honestly loves what they're doing, but I'm sure there are other ways to love one's craft than burning passion. Here's a passion fruit. But, again, that's not the way, just a way to go about writing.
Who said they did? What I said was passion without skill will not get you read. If one is so passionate about writing, then it should follow they will do everything they can to become a good writer. Passion is not necessary to being a good writer, and, IMO, remains low on the list of importance.
I dunno.... I think you have to have passion to do any job. Otherwise, what else keeps you motivated? What keeps you from saying, "This is too hard, I quit." I think it's passion. I don't think I'm a very skilled writer. I still have a lot to learn and a lot to improve on. If I wasn't passionate about being a writer though, I would've given up a long time ago. In fact, just yesterday, I was so worked up over how terrible of a writer I am, I actually said that I wanted to quit. But no. I can't quit. Because writing is my life, my (cough) passion, the only career I can see myself having. And I'll keep writing, keep learning, keep hating every word I put on paper, just as long as I keep writing. So if I didn't have my passion, I wouldn't still be doing it. Sure, passion doesn't make a good writer. But passion drives a bad writer to become a good writer, because they can't imagine doing anything else with their life, so they work their tail off to make sure they can live their dream.
Exactly, and I'd imagine most who are (truly) passionate about writing do, but young/beginner writers can't be expected to be very skilled when they haven't had the time to acquire a professional skill level, but passion sure helps to keep one motivated to work one's ass off to become skilled in a craft that is likely to never earn them one cent. I'm with @Lea`Brooks on this one; without passion, it could be pretty difficult to maintain that desire to work hard to become skilled when it takes tons of effort and years of hard work, making sacrifices just to hone your craft etc, knowing it's likely, even probable it will never yield neither money nor fame. Why do you believe writers are so different from other artists, most of whom seem to be passionate about their craft? All the pro level musicians I know are very passionate about music, improving their skills on their instrument etc. even though they are already extremely skilled. The same goes for all pro martial artists I know, competitive shooters, even scientists. Many of the aforementioned, such as the musicians and athletes, usually don't make a lot of money (I do know some who are famous and earn quite a bit of money, but they are exceptions to the rule), but they keep at it because their job is their passion, something they truly love doing. If one didn't have passion for a craft that's unlikely to provide them with a solid income, what else keeps them going on that same, monetarily unrewarding, but emotionally extremely rewarding path but passion? What I don't get is why you think a passionate writer is more likely to be shit than a dispassionate writer? Who said it was?
Or pride in doing one's best, regardless. I have a job that is far from glamorous, physically demanding, and frankly takes time away from a lot of things I'd much rather be doing. But I give it my best shot every day. I would call that determination rather than passion. Again, I consider that to be determination rather than passion. People can love doing something, and work their asses off to become better at it and to maintain their skills without calling it a "passion". First, not being a 'passionate writer' is not the same as being a 'dispassionate writer'. As to why I think passionate writers tend to be less likely to continue, less likely to improve, well, that simply comes from my experiences with them as a beta. The writers who were less 'emotional' in their proclamations were more willing to do the work, more willing to accept constructive criticism, more willing to go the distance. "I'm passionate about..." just seems to be another one of those catchphrases these days. Everybody is passionate about something - until it quits being fun or the next bright shiny object comes along. So yeah, I'm skeptical when I hear it. Some move on and actually do something with their writing - others don't.
Doesn't that apply to all writer types? It seems you just mean a very different thing with passion than some others here; something fleeting that's not anything serious, something mostly experienced by those who "write" only because that day they woke up thinking it'd be kinda neat to be able to say "I'm a writer" before waking up the next morning thinking something else would be even neater. I wouldn't call that even a form of passion, maybe only a fleeting interest mixed with a quickly fading burst of excitement about something new. In my reality, the definition of passion matches closely the one in Cambrdige Dictionary: "an extreme interest in or wish for doing something, such as a hobby, activity, etc.:" It doesn't include any allusions to the effect that passion is fleeting or something experienced mostly by posers, hacks, wannabes, and attention-starved jackasses. Seems like those are the kind of people you saw as passionate when you beta-read them, claiming to be passionate about writing when, in reality, they've been merely briefly excited, infatuated. I could claim to be the pope, but that doesn't make me anything more than a dumbass. I see determination as a different thing from how I've described passion. To me, determination doesn't require any emotional attachment to the object of your determination; it just takes a decision to do whatever and stick with it for whatever reason. To me, passion requires an emotional attachment; it's not just something that drives you to do whatever because it's logical, it's what drives you to do whatever because you love it. But, as I said before, this is about semantics: we mean different things with the same word, so obviously it gets confusing: you see a passionate person, I see a wannabe hack, you see a determined person, I see a determined, passionate, or a determined and passionate person (depending on your definition of determined). I might be determined to finish a boring-ass translation project on time, but I'm not passionate about it like I am about finishing my and @KaTrian's WIP after working on it almost daily for over 4 years. And I really don't believe being passionate about whatever is a new thing, a new fad, or some such; people have talked about being passionate about their craft, be it arts, sports, science, or whatever, as long as I can remember, probably as long as the word has had its current meaning, so I don't think its use will pass anymore than the use of e.g. "I like this." To finish, here's a quote from Wikipedia's entry on "passion": There are different reasons individuals are motivated for an occupation. One of these includes passion for the occupation. When an individual is passionate about their occupation they tend to be less obsessive about their behavior while on their job, resulting in more work being done and more work satisfaction. These same individuals have higher levels of psychological well-being.[14] When people genuinely enjoy their profession and are motivated by their passion, they tend to be more satisfied with their work and more psychologically healthy. When an individual is unsatisfied with their profession they are also dissatisfied with their family relationships and experience psychological distress.[15] Other reasons people are more satisfied when they are motivated by their passion for their occupation include the effects of intrinsic and external motivations. When an individual is doing the job to satisfy others, they tend to have lower levels of satisfaction and psychological health. Also, these same individuals have shown they are motivated by several beliefs and fears concerning other people.[16] Thirdly, though some individuals believe one should not work extreme hours, many prefer it because of how passionate they are about the occupation. On the other hand, this may also put a strain on family relationships and friendships. The balance of the two is something that is hard to achieve and it is always hard to satisfy both parties. To me, that means people can very well be passionate about the same thing for decades; usually people work for decades before retiring, and if they're passionate about that work, it stands to reason their passion, like their work, lasts decades. Many of those who're truly passionate about their work, continue it even after retirement, carrying on until they no longer can or they die. I just finished reading about a retired pistol smith who still builds guns simply because he loves his craft, because he has a strong, life-long passion for building quality 1911s, constantly trying to top his previous products. Sure, not all are like that, but it's hardly a unique feature in a person.
Well, I've known a lot of people who keep working at their jobs past retirement because they love what they're doing. Passionate about it? No. Get enjoyment and satisfaction from it? Yes. And I've seen that whether the people are working for themselves or for others. They aren't working for the attaboys from the boss - they enjoy doing the job well. Again, I'm going by what I've experienced with writers - and btw, they weren't all writers who just started. Some had been writing for some time - but once they got their first actual feedback on that baby they'd been enthralled with for months - whole 'nother story. Honeymoons can last a long time, but they all come to an end eventually. It's what people do after that counts.
I don't question that you've beta-read for some real... well, I'm trying not to be too offensive, but... fuck it; they sound like grown-up babies in a serious need of a reality check. But I don't see how passion has anytthing to do with weak minds; it might be that because you mean thing X when you say "passion," and the people you've helped have been mostly such X folks, whereas I mean thing Y when I say "passion" and Y has nothing to do with X folk. All honeymoons end, for sure, but not all marriages lose their passion ("passion" as in my definition of the word, not yours).
Passionate people in my line of work are the strongest minds around! In fact, you'd make for one crap academic if you didn't love your specialism. I'm in contact with an expert in Norse poetry and his passion and love, and even obsession with his subject is utterly infectious and makes learning from him all the more easy.
I see that at uni all the time; especially the lecturers, old and young, often get excited when lecturing about a thing they love, and they go on these tangents that go from one sub category of that subject into another until the class is suddenly over and s/he didn't teach us anything the class was supposed to be about. Most students like that, though, because like you said, it's really infectuous and inspiring.
Well, I'll just continue to be skeptical when someone says they're "passionate" about anything. I can only go by my experience, and, whether it's writing or anything else, "passionate" people either drop out or bring it down to a successful simmer.
If they drop out or 'bring it down to a simmer' then in my mind that means they were not very passionate, more just going through a period of a fad. Passion to me is the guy who literally breathes love for their subject, and never ever tires of it even after years and decades of study.
I feel compelled to have another rant in a similar vein tonight. I guess I'm in a special little snowflake mood again. I've just picked up Lev Grossman and I'm seething with jealousy. Lev Grossman is who I would be if I wasn't being me...Okay, there you go I said it. And now that I've said it I feel like there is no longer room to be me because someone's already done it, only better. Shit. Now if you'll all excuse me I have a date with a razor blade.
There's passion and there's love. Passion is what you feel for that hot young chick. Love is what you feel for the woman you marry. It's the same with anything. Passion ALWAYS cools.
