The Right Way to View Self-Publishing

Discussion in 'Self-Publishing' started by Steerpike, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But in that case, why self-publish? As I see it, there are several possibilities:

    1) You're doing it in large part for the money, and you expect to make a meaningful amount of money. That's a business. In that case, you should invest enough in that business to give it a reasonable chance of success.

    2) You're doing it in large part for the money, and you don't expect to make a meaningful amount of money. In that case, why do it at all?

    3) You're doing it because you want people to read your work, and money isn't a primary issue. In that case, you should invest enough to give *that* goal a reasonable chance of success, and people generally don't read books that look homemade. No, I'm not talking about mortgaging your house, but in that case the question of whether you earn more than you spend shouldn't really be the deciding factor.

    Yes, most self-published books make very little. But to me, that's either an argument for going with traditional publishing (my preference) or with doing a really, really good job of self-publishing and hoping to beat the odds. (There is exactly one magnificently self-published picture book on our shelves, and I hope that book beats the odds.) It doesn't seem like an argument for creating yet another mediocre self-published work; mediocrity is unlikely to beat any odds.
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak I think that's a good analysis. I'll point out as well, however, that most people going the traditional route don't get published, and most who do don't make a ton of money. So the fact that self-published works on average doesn't make much isn't a a great distinction, in my view.
     
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  3. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    But people who go the traditional route don't lose money. So two writers going different publishing routes but making the same amount of money off sales aren't actually making the same amount of money in the end. That's something I don't think the Guardian article takes into account.

    While I'm not against self-publishing, I think most writers are better off going the traditional route if they're looking to make money.
     
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I don't know. My time is valuable. I think a lot of people feel that way. Some people spend years pursuing the traditional route and never get anywhere. I think all of that time spent is worth something.
     
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  5. Andrae Smith

    Andrae Smith Bestselling Author|Editor|Writing Coach Contributor

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    With this, I find no fault. The truth has been spoken.
     
  6. JayG

    JayG Banned Contributor

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    Someone who can? Can what? Take writing that has structural flaws and make it of publishable quality? If an editor could do that they would be selling their own work and making a lot more money. Look at the average self-publishers work. The problem isn't editing, it's that it was written by someone who 's still using high school English compositional techniques because they don't know any better. Editing won't help because when the editor marks a section as written too passively, or with a weak POV, the writer won't know what they're talking about.

    An editor isn't a book doctor. They're not writing teachers. They act as an educated eye, an outsider who will see the things you missed because you're too close to the work, not because you don't know how to handle certain structural problems.

    So yes, you should have your work edited if you're going to self publish. But first, the level of the writing should be brought up to the point where an editor is useful.

    “They can’t yank a novelist the way they can a pitcher. A novelist has to go the full nine, even if it kills him.” ~ Ernest Hemingway
     
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  7. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    But then one has to look at the time spent on the publishing part of self-publishing as well - time not available for writing - and they have no greater guarantee of "getting anywhere".
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    And also the time spent on the book. Once you've poured all that time and creativity into the book, it makes no sense to me to do a mediocre self-publishing job; to me, it's like throwing the book away. I still have trouble getting my mind around self-publishing at all, but if you're going to do it, surely you'd do it full-tilt.
     
  9. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    I figure @Steerpike meant someone who can edit, since the conversation was about whether or not a writer should hire an editor. I don't think anyone was ever talking about someone who can wave a magic wand over a shit book and turn it into amazing literature.

    I don't think the money should really come into your decision of whether or not to self-pub. The odds of making anything through either route are vanishingly small. If all you want to do is write, or you're really not happy with the idea that you could lose a bit of money, then hell yes go to traditional publishers. Regardless of whether or not you ever make it, they'll suit what you want to do far better.

    Personally, I'm considering self-pubbing a collection of the flash I've been doing. Partially because I'm pretty certain the reaction of any trad publisher to a collection of already-online flash fiction from an unknown author would be 'ahahahahaha no', but mainly because I find the business side really interesting. I'm expecting to have to spend a bit of money. I don't mind not getting any back. The experience will be worth it.
     
  10. AnubisTheJackle

    AnubisTheJackle New Member

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    The question here becomes, how many of these authors invested in their product (their book) before releasing it? If we lump everyone together, the results become muddy and unusable. I'd like to see statistics that show profits based on dollar amount invested in the works.

    For my own works, I'll be hiring a designer, editor, as well as hiring a marketing team. Can get all of these things relatively inexpensively on freelancer sites like oDesk and the lot, though it is a bit of a buyer beware type of situation at times, so definitely do your homework before hiring anyone.
     
  11. Alysa

    Alysa Member

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    My best friend just self published and I had previously done editing for him. I did however notice a bunch of problems when he gave me a copy. He switches tenses all the time and I had gone through and corrected them all but, he didn't put them in! I have a lot of free time so if anyone ever wanted to send something my way to look over I would love to help out.
     
  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    This has been an interesting discussion. I wish traditional publishing wasn't so 'closed' and formulaic as it seems to be these days.

    I get very frustrated, reading all the submission guides and realising that my book will never get looked at. Not because it's badly-written (I don't believe it is) but simply because I can't find any publishing house that will look at a longer novel from a first-time author. And as for targeting an agent who has recently promoted a book similar to mine? Don't make me laugh. I didn't write my book to be similar to anybody else's. I just wrote the book I wanted to write.

    I have cut my MS as much as I can, without losing the sense of immersion that makes my characters come alive. Many of my recent beta readers have urged me to go for publication. I know I have a potential readership, because many of them have belted through the MS, given me excellent feedback, and some are still talking about what happened to my characters. But unless I lie about my word count (which of course I wouldn't) I will never get it past the first hurdle.

    Okay, I have three options here.

    One, chop the life out of the story, maybe get it traditionally published, and hate it forevermore. (Or maybe spend years attempting to get it traditionally published and failing...?)

    Two, go off and write something else which is a lot shorter, hope I can sell that, and if I do then I can perhaps sell this one?

    Or three—go for self-publishing. A no-brainer, really.

    Hey, I'm nearly 65 years old! I don't feel I have years and years to devote to chasing a publisher I may never catch. I don't write 'short' stories, and I have spent nearly 14 years researching and writing this novel, editing it in many drafts, cutting it by well over a third of its original length, submitting it to readers (probably about 30-40 to date—some people I know well, some people I don't know at all). I've been garnering feedback at all stages, making changes based on what my readers have told me, editing, polishing, etc.

    I'm not looking to make a career out of writing. This book is a labour of love, and I would just like to see it 'out there,' for people to read. Of course I'll do my best to market it well, create a good cover, make sure the MS is formatted correctly and error-free. It helps that I have a BA in English myself, and I'm fairly confident I can spell, punctuate and use grammatically-correct language. I'll learn as much as I can about marketing the book, but I don't care if I make money with it or not. I just want it out there.

    Self-publishing is an excellent opportunity for somebody like me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014
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  13. swhibs123

    swhibs123 Active Member

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    Don't buy into these stats. The SP authors I know, myself included, have all earned (after paying back what they invested in their work) more than $1000.
     
  14. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Jannert, you seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions as to why your book won't ever ever get an agent or a trade publisher. Have you tried that route, and gotten responses that support those assumptions? I'm not saying don't self-publish if that's what you really want - but I wouldn't do it simply because you've "heard" that your book "probably" won't work (ie, last resort). (And I'm 59 so I don't consider 65 "too old" for much of anything ;))
     
  15. swhibs123

    swhibs123 Active Member

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    I agree with Shadowwalker - if you want to SP do it, but if your dream is trade publishing, go for that first. The only way you'll know if you can't do something is if you try. Go for it!
     
  16. AES256

    AES256 New Member

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    I've made more money through SP then I did with Dutton Juvenile. Though I can't say I agree with trade publishers these days. They care more about money than publishing good literature.
     
  17. Devlin Blake

    Devlin Blake New Member

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    We are NOT self publishers. We are Indie Authors. No different than an indie filmmaker or an indie band. When you don't have a label or house behind you, you ARE the publishing house.

    A publishing house hires editors, (proofreaders, line editors, beta readers) formatters, designers, and people for promotion. A smart business person knows that the secret to success lies in hiring others to do what they aren't good at or don't have time to do.

    That's how a business succeeds. How a businesses fails is the owner tries to do it all themselves. There has never been a successful business built that way.

    At first. But indie publishing is a marathon, not a sprint. Let's say you spent $1000 on your book and made only $850 that first year. (plausible numbers.)

    Let's say you live 50 more years after you publish the book. It never does any better, but it never does any worse. That means the book made you $42,500 over it's lifetime. For work you only had to do and pay for once. Not a huge amount, but I'd rather have it than not have it. That's some nice vacations and restaurants.

    Copyright lasts about 120 years now, (Thanks Disney. Yes, I am being sarcastic.)

    So after you're dead, this book can make your decedents $59,500.

    So that's $102,000 the book makes your family in it's lifetime. Isn't that worth $1000 one time?

    And we're only talking about one book. What if you wrote, two or three? What if you did what
    Hugh Howey did and wrote over 30 books? How much money would you make then?

    Saying you don't want invest in your book is like saying you want to run a five star restaurant but only serve McDonald's quality and McDonald's decor until you're sure it will 'work'. Anyone who feels that way should NOT indie publish.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
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  18. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Call yourself an "indie author" if you want, but everyone knows it's still self-publishing. And it's not "indie publishing" - indie publishers are the smaller trade publishers. Otherwise, I agree - if you're going to self-publish, you should be willing to invest in it. You should also understand that you most likely will not earn all that money back. Not saying it absolutely won't happen - just that it's not likely.
     
  19. Devlin Blake

    Devlin Blake New Member

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    The term Indie Author is used now because it IS different from self.

    Indie implies you're an entrepreneur who loves to write. You're both author and publishing house.

    Here's what indies do:
    >Go into this knowing it's a business & businesses take time to grow
    >Be willing to invest in you book (would you try to open a store without an investment? Same thing? )
    >Put out a professional product
    >Build an email list of readers (by offering them some bonus to enhance the book)
    >Get to know this list through email marketing, and treat your loyal readers like gold.(Never spam it.)
    >Market their tails off
    >Understand that one book won't make them rich
    >Have a plan in place to sell more books
    >Put out multiple books a year
    >Have one book that's a loss leader
    >Sell on established sites

    Here's what self does;
    >Puts up a book
    >Tells a few people
    >Hope they get lucky

    And if you're self using vanity press:

    >Pay VP a bunch of money
    >Have a garage filled with inventory
    >Spends the rest of their life trying to unload that inventory.

    It's a businesses. And it deserves to be treated like one. If you put out a half-a** unedited job with a bad cover, and never market it, I guarantee you won't even sell a dozen books. You need to make the switch from thinking of this as SP and start thinking of it more as an Indie Author. You won't sell many books otherwise.

    I'm climbing down from the soapbox now.

    PS. Anyone can be a call themselves a publishing house. It's not even a special form beyond the DBA. Saying you're a small publishing house doesn't impress me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
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  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    But anyone can call themselves an 'Indie Author', too, whether they're doing all the stuff you say they should or not.

    Playing with the terms seems pointless. Whose respect are you hoping to win? That of the literary establishment you're trying to be independent of?

    I'm a hybrid author. Some of my books are with publishers, others I've self-published. "Indie Author"? We're all independent authors. It's hard to find a job more independent than writing.
     
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  21. Devlin Blake

    Devlin Blake New Member

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    Nope. Just trying to help. I'm pointing out that if you go into this thinking the way a self publisher would, you're going to fail. You need to go into it thinking like an authorpreneur. The different terms often helps people shift their thinking.

    If you don't respect your own book enough to invest in it, no one will invest their time to read it.
    :D
     
  22. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    The main problem I'm having with this is that there's no such thing as a free lunch. We can yell until we are blue in the face, about how there are some self-published writers who are up to scratch, but the reality is, they are exceptions in the sea of unpolished drafts that should've waited another several years and twice as many revisions before it was inflicted on the reading public. It's appealing to the lazy, impatient, temperamental writer's ego, that isn't interested in hard work, only the glory.

    The self-publishing vs traditional publishing is sort of the same thing as opening a private university, selling degrees (or even giving them away for free) without any criteria, and then those graduates demanding equal status as, say, recognised university graduates that have stringent criteria, exams, courses last many years etc. All the while insisting that they should be treated the same because a few graduates here and there actually learned something.

    I'm not saying self-publishing isn't a viable option, it is and I myself have self-published. But it isn't the same level of achievement as being trad published by a reputable house, unless your self-pub book makes it big, at which point you are picked up by a trad publisher anyway. So self publishing is mainly the intermediate stage of sorts, in my mind, for writers to feel like they are getting somewhere. But realistically, a lot of people allow their egos to get better of them and try to make their self-publishing efforts into something they are not. I think the main objection lies therein.
     
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  23. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I think @Devlin Blake has a good point. And labels do matter. It's called framing. And framing affects how people think.

    For example, vanity press has a negative connotation, no one would invest in your work so you paid to publish it. Self publishing is halfway back to being published as far as connotation goes. It isn't quite as negative of a term as vanity publishing but look at how writers turn their noses up even when some self published work is excellent.

    I prefer to focus on the fact if I end up being self published it will be because the publisher/agent gatekeepers don't have a perfect system. Some crap gets through and some excellent stuff is overlooked.

    I've seen more than one person file a business license so they can put up the facade they had a publisher. But what you want in the end is for the reader not to be biased the book isn't worthy of being published before they've read it.

    I think changing to a more acceptable 'indie publishing' rather than self published just frames the bias-ball a little more in the writer's favor on the court.
     
  24. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Except that "indie publishing" is already an established and understood term in the real publishing world, and self-publishing gurus usurped it to make themselves look like they weren't really self-publishing. Maybe if authors quit looking for euphemisms, it would be easier to convince readers they're worth taking a chance on.

    And Devlin - "authorpreneur"? Seriously?
     
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  25. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    It doesn't matter. What matters is how good your writing actually is.

    The rest is all marketing and if Indie Publishing is a better 'frame' at the moment, go for it. I was thinking of maybe getting together with a couple writers whose books I like but who haven't been picked up by a publisher and starting a publishing co-op.

    The worst thing you can do is belittle your own work by saying self publishing is a sign of a bad book and then find yourself having to go that route.

    One of the things that gets the best reviews in my critique group is when I make up new words and terms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
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