Poetry?

Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by Lemex, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Yeah, that's true. Actually, that goes back to your point about the rapture too. If there is a point in Paradise Lost where Milton talks about an end time I don't remember it.

    I don't honestly know if Milton would have known much about Odin. I don't think someone like Milton would have known how to read Scandinavian Runes, but he did originally set out to write a nationalist epic about King Arthur, so I suppose it's possible he would have at least seen Anglo-Saxon runes, or even late Anglo-Saxon/Old English.

    If that was the point of the rebellion then I don't honestly see Satan's point. One thing I'm always aware of when reading Paradise Lost is that Satan for all his pride is not stupid, some uncertainty is perfectly natural. And also, it's very much the case that since we are getting Satan's perspective, the entire epic has been written to reflect Satan's pride.

    I don't personally think this comes into the poem a lot, but Satan would want to portray himself as the underdog to get sympathy from the reader. This is one way you can read Paradise Lost, as it not being actually about trying to 'Justifye the ways of god to men', but to justify the actions of Satan.

    I think that, while, that is a part of the poem, it's far from the full story. For one thing it's too easy, and far too convenient, but also because of the mere fact the rebellion happened. A god that allowed a civil war cannot be all powerful - unless, of course, it was part of the divine plan.

    Oh don't worry about that! It's poetry! :)

    Haha, yeah. Wow is that ever true. To be honest, we are talking about the central point of the epic - this is, it seems to me, what the whole thing is about. Does Milton justify the ways of God to men? I don't think he does. I agree with the Romantics.
     
  2. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Well in that case we could make the justifyable argument that Satan is a psychopath or at least shows sociopathic ten...den...cy...

    ...and I just realized how stupid that was to write.

    I always felt that Satan was being upfront about the whole thing, but maybe I've been taken in by the facade.
     
  3. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Do! Milton is fantastic. :)
     
  4. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    To be honest, I have been too. I think Satan's bias to his own actions is only limited to his own comments, it's just yet another interpretation. Though one I don't happen to think is right. :)
     
  5. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Well I don't think a man in the 17th century would really have much knowledge of psychology. Not that the features of a psychopath wouldn't have been known to be part of a person's personality at the time. Or maybe they would?

    Dammit, now we need a historical psychologist to go along with our historical theologian.
     
  6. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Haha, I imagine that if the psychological manifestation wasn't known about, the type was - it would pretty much have to be. We cannot assume that just because someone lived in a time before Freud they would not understand some of the more basic aspects of psychology. We can even point to the Pearl poet and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to see medieval people knew of the link between sex and death, even if they would not have thought of it in such concrete terms.

    There is a really wonderful bit in Homer, I forget which book, one of the teens, where a group of soldiers are sitting in a valley before the dawn of a battle, and to them the stars seem brighter, the hills seem more in focus, the sounds of a nearby river seem to them more clear. This is something I've heard happens to soldiers even now, from friends of mine serving in Afghanistan.

    If Milton didn't know psychopathy exists, he lived a very politically active life. He would have had to have known people who could be an inspiration for Satan. Prideful, manipulative, intelligent, and would do and say anything to win.

    Also, sex itself. Sex in Paradise Lost has a very interesting presence. One of the first things Satan sees when he lands in Eden is Adam and Eve having sex, and he gets aroused by it - he wants to join in. What does this mean, you think, considering in the poem this is before sin?
     
  7. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Well here again, my non-christian upbringing hampers my understanding a bit. Baha'is don't actually believe in original sin*, so I think I totally missed that subtext. I bought a King James Bible to help me out, because my copy of Paradise Lost had really good notes, and they would site chapter and verse.

    But just thinking about it, I would say that this is the genesis of temptation is Satan's eyes. Remember that there's the Gregorian concepts of the Incubus and Succubus, and whether or not Milton still believed in demonic possession, the idea was there that demons both liked sex, and wanted to have it with humans.

    As an angel Satan would have never been exposed to sex or sexuality and so we can see that he is drifting away from his angelic nature. The Divine Comedy has punishments for sexuality in the Inferno, but those are gone in Purgatory and Paradise. This squares with most religious teaching on the morality of sex, but I like to think that heaven has it's...adult parties.

    It seems that the paradigm here is that sex is the domain of demons and hell, and we see the start of this the first time that Satan is exposed to it. That could in a way be his motivation for tempting Eve, to be able to have sex for the first time, because sin had been invented.**

    But I have to ask, considering they way Biblical figures get their freak on, I don't understand why a 3-way would necessarily be sinful.

    *Frankly I find the whole concept very strange. You know your the only Abrahamic religion that does that, right?
    **Once again, this whole concept is a mind fuck for me.
     
  8. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    To be honest, I'm a bit hampered too in this respect, because I'm not actually a Christian. I was raised a Christian however, but still. When talking about Paradise Lost I'm always conscious that I might be trying to make Satan the hero purely because such a reading better fits my own beliefs about God. I happen to be an atheist.

    Interesting. You might have a point, I'll have to remind myself of this when I reread the poem. I guess I can do that over Christmas.

    The two problems with this theory is that in Paradise Lost, book 1 again (or maybe book 2) states that the angels are transsexual, and can adapt their bodies freely for sexual pleasure - and the two ideas of hell are quite different.

    Milton's Hell and conception of the angels is very different to Dante's. Dante's angels were more traditional, Milton's were more like (though in many ways also not) like Valkyrie. Dante's hell follows a specific order, is under the surface of the earth, and conforms to Scholastic thinking, whereas Milton's hell is actually a lot like the other world in Minecraft, only with fire that burns without producing light.

    I mean, you are right in the sense that this is Satan's first image of sex as an act of procreation, and also the first time he sees sex between creatures of two obviously different genders. Satan is clearly impressed, and seems to get an erection, so yeah you could be right.

    I don't understand it either, or why God makes it such a big deal after Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree. I think that happens about book 7 or 8, so maybe there is something about this in one of the later books that I've just completely forgotten.
     
  9. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    My wife, who is Catholic, tells me that Adam and Eve didn't have sex until after the fall. This might be a purely Catholic conceit, though the idea that sex is inherently sinful seems to have permeated most other christian sects (most notably the puritans).

    But would Milton have added the sex scene just a few decades since the split from Catholicism? Is he trying to make a statement that sex isn't inherently sinful? Is my wife confused or just full of shit?

    I'm asking these questions as I plan what I'm going to google. I'll be back in a second.
     
  10. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Hmmmm
    It appears that in Genesis God gives the command, "Be fruitful, and multiply" but the phrase "And Adam knew Eve his wife and she concieved" appears after the fall. Rabbi's have proposed that Adam and Eve got their freak on without the risk of pregnancy*.

    This brings up a host of questions, among them: If sex without the purpose of procreation is sinful, why would that be the only kind of sex one could have in the garden?
    And:
    With several different understanding of the issue pervading thought at the time, what is Milton trying to say by choosing this version?

    *Which does fit my idea of paradise. Only with 3 more Eves. And another Adam. Don't judge.

    Edited to Add: the Baha'i faith offers a different take, both on the nature of God vis-a-vis sin, and the Garden. That is that, from the perspective of an animal, without the knowledge of good and evil, the world is a veritable paradise. The Garden of Eden is an allegory for the carefree days when there were no consequences. But gaining knowledge of good an evil annihilates that paradise. With that knowledge the world suddenly becomes a terrible place.

    Baha'is see it not as the cruelty of a God with dictatorial power, and little consistency, but just a simple matter of cause and effect.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  11. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Honestly, I have no idea. I'd trust her judgement over my own, an atheist who was raised a protestant. I think I might need to visit a church soon to ask the priest more about this. And read the epic again, of coruse. :p

    Good questions both. These will be things I'll look out for in my next reading.

    Ha! You and I both, buddy! :D

    That's a really interesting position. I don't know a lot about Baha'i, but I have to say that would make sense to me as a person, and knowing how my brain works. Eden type paradises also fit in to Ovid and the before days of the first humans. Ovid, actually, has many parallels with the biblical narrative, and Milton would have known Ovid's Metamorphosis if nothing else - and that 'nothing else' is a huge stretch.

    I like your perspective on this. Thanks for sharing. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
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  12. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    On to other poems, has anyone ever read A.E. Housman? This poem by him is I think particularly powerful, and I can recite it pretty much from memory:

    To an Athlete Dying Young


    The time you won your town the race
    We chaired you through the market-place;
    Man and boy stood cheering by,
    And home we brought you shoulder-high.

    Today, the road all runners come,
    Shoulder-high we bring you home,
    And set you at your threshold down,
    Townsman of a stiller town.

    Smart lad, to slip betimes away
    From fields where glory does not stay,
    And early though the laurel grows
    It withers quicker than the rose.

    Eyes the shady night has shut
    Cannot see the record cut,
    And silence sounds no worse than cheers
    After earth has stopped the ears.

    Now you will not swell the rout
    Of lads that wore their honours out,
    Runners whom renown outran
    And the name died before the man.

    So set, before its echoes fade,
    The fleet foot on the sill of shade,
    And hold to the low lintel up
    The still-defended challenge-cup.

    And round that early-laurelled head
    Will flock to gaze the strengthless dead,
    And find unwithered on its curls
    The garland briefer than a girl’s.
     
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  13. Mike Hill

    Mike Hill Natural born citizen of republic of Finland.

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    Reading about poetry is quite interesting. It's really unexplored world for me. I can't name one writing in English but I can share a Finnish "legend" Eino Leino. He is my favorite poet. Happy times when I read these and then ask my father what he thinks about them. My mind almost explodes when he starts to talk about how many different angles there are.
    Poetry should be read in its original language but hopefully you get a feel. I can say that nature is close in his poetry.

    Nocturne
    By Eino Leino

    (translated by Aina Swan Cutler)

    I hear the evening corncrake calling.
    Moonlight flood the fields of tasseled grain.
    Wood smoke, drifting veils the distant valleys.
    Summer evening's joy is here for me.
    I'm not happy yet no sorrow shakes me,
    but the dark woods stillness I would welcome.
    Rosy clouds through which the day is falling,
    sleepy breezes from the blue gray mountains,
    shodows on the water, meadow flowers...
    out of these my heart's own song I'll make!
    I will sing it, summer hay-sweet maiden,
    sing to you my deep serenity,
    my own faith that sounds a swelling music,
    oak-leaf garland ever fresh and green.
    I'll no longer chase the will-o-wisp.
    Happiness is here in my own keeping.
    Day by day, life's circle narrows, closes.
    Time stands still now ... weather cocks all sleeping.
    Here before me lies a shadowy way
     
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  14. SocksFox

    SocksFox Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    This poem is in one of my books, Treasury of the Familiar. It is one of the few pieces of poetry my grandpa ever admitted to liking. To hear him tell it was always a treat...Sorry, random tangent. :agreed:
     
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  15. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Oh wow I liked that. Especially the line 'I'm not happy yet no sorrow shakes me', that is remarkably beautiful. It's very familiar to me too. Did you translate this yourself?

    Don't worry about tangents. I honestly like to see them. :) That is a good poem to hear, and one anyone can enjoy. That's what I like about it.
     
  16. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    When I was a Senior in high school in our AP English class we had a year long assignment. We had to pick a specific genre and read several pieces and do essays about each. I picked sports literature. This poem was one of the five poems I included. Nice find. I can't think of the name but there is a famous writer that did several different types of sports literature including poems. Maybe I'll remember the name. John Updike was one of them but there was another.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
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  17. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    The poet with the largest number of poems I enjoy at this point would have to be Tennyson: the imagery of "The Kraken" is somehow epic and magnificent while simultaneously haunting and elusive, "The Eagle" has the fastest pace I have ever seen crammed into 6 verses, and "Crossing the Bar" shows not only a personal acceptance of human mortality but a desire for one's friends and family to take the same comfort.

    My favorite poems not from Tennyson would have to be "Inferno" by Dante Alighieri, "Acquainted with the Night" by Robert Frost, "Because I Could Not Stop for Death" by Emily Dickinson, and "A Rural Carrier Stops to Kill a Nine-Foot Cottonmouth" by TR Hummer.
     
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  18. Gigi_GNR

    Gigi_GNR Guys, come on. WAFFLE-O. Contributor

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    Andrea Gibson, particularly "Photograph."
     
  19. JeffShirley

    JeffShirley Guest

    I read all types of poetry. My favorite contemporary book is is Rae Armantrout's Next Life, it is not a more popular one it is best of her collection.
     
  20. Gigi_GNR

    Gigi_GNR Guys, come on. WAFFLE-O. Contributor

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    Clementine von Radics is also one of my favorites.
     
  21. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I've not read Clementine von Radics, who is that?
     
  22. Gigi_GNR

    Gigi_GNR Guys, come on. WAFFLE-O. Contributor

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    I found her poetry through quotes passed around on other forums and I finally read Mouthful of Forevers and loved it. She's more self-published, so she's not as big as she really should be, but both her and Andrea Gibson are my personal favorites.
     
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  23. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Why has no one mentioned Don Marquis? Or is he obsolete in a world without typewriters?
     
  24. pk.

    pk. Active Member

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    Wallace Stevens - Harmonium
    James Tate - Worshipful Company of Fletchers
    Liam Rector - The Executive Director of the Fallen World
    John Berryman - Dream Songs.

    I guess I really like modern American poets. The books I have mentioned are all great in their own unique way. Wallace Stevens' philosophical musings are amazing, James Tate has an extraordinary imagination and language style, Liam Rector explores the darker side of "the American dream" and John Berryman speaks for himself: “These Songs are not meant to be understood, you understand.
    They are only meant to terrify & comfort.”

    Also a recent favourite has been Kathleen Graber's The Eternal City.
     
  25. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

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    I dislike a lot of poetry; I find it rather conceited and pretentious. Irritating everyone with the profundity of your feelings is on a par to me with the relentless narcissistic updates people give on Facebook about the tedious shit they get up to in their day-to-day lives.

    I also regularly find it so painfully cringe-worthy that I have a permanent set of teeth marks scarred into the back of my fist from reading it too often.

    However, if I had to choose it would be the Romantics, partly due to the beauty of their language, but mainly due to the fact they have the excuse of being off their tits on drugs.
     

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