What do you think of Fan Fiction?

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction' started by JC Axe, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    9,991
    Location:
    Near Sedro Woolley, Washington
    This is not the point. It's not about not being able to distinguish fantasy from reality. It is about the months and sometimes years a writer puts into creating a character, only to see that character twisted by someone who doesn't understand him or why he was created in the first place.

    Now you're just being silly. I have no objection to writing about drug-addicted underage prostitutes. Writers should be free to write about any character they can imagine.

    The point is that if Writer A creates a character who, after struggling both physically and emotionally, finally emerges as a hero, he's making a point and presenting a view of the world. If Writer B comes along and writes a fanfic in which that character does not become a hero, but instead becomes a lowlife, then Writer B has basically pissed all over Writer A's work, and by implication has insulted Writer A. He's saying that Writer A doesn't understand the world. While this may be true, Writer B could make that point without pissing on Writer A's work.

    For example, take the movie Casablanca. If you haven't seen it, do so; it's a classic for a reason. Don't read the following if you haven't seen the movie.
    At the end, Rick gives the letters of transit to Ilsa and Victor, sacrificing his own interest and his own love for Ilsa for a greater cause. He has struggled with himself, went through some dark places in his own mind, but he emerges a hero, and we leave the theater with our hearts swelling in empathy, feeling proud and happy for and with Rick. A great ending.

    What if some writer does a fanfic in which Rick keeps the letters for himself and Ilsa? Then he escapes with the love of his life and he leaves Victor to be arrested by the Nazis. How would we feel then? We'd regard Rick as a dirtbag who steals another man's wife - giving her a damn good reason to hate him forever - while leaving that other man (a leader of the resistance) to be arrested and probably executed. We'd leave the theater feeling pissed off and somehow violated, because the expected celebration of courage and sacrifice doesn't happen. We don't get our hero.

    The makers of Casablanca would, I think, be justified in being damned angry with the fanfic writer. He's destroyed their character and, along with him, the message they were trying to convey.

    My point is, if you disagree with the point the original writer was trying to make, you can do it by writing your own story. You don't have to twist the original writer's intentions.

    My characters are parts of my soul. I've spent thousands of hours creating them and writing their stories. I've sweated for them and cried for them. They're hugely valuable to me. I love them. I hate the idea of someone else coming along and breaking the backs I built for them, closing the eyes I opened for them, shrinking the hearts I grew for them, twisting them into things I don't even recognize.

    Look, I'm not saying that fanfic writers always do this. Some may enhance characters instead of ruining them. I certainly don't want to make fanfic illegal. What I am saying is that writing fanfic can be disrespectful to the original author and that author's creation.

    I am not claiming that fanfic writers write fanfic out of laziness. I am asking why they want to write fanfic instead of their own original work. I understand being a fan of something, but to me that means respecting it. Writing fanfic seems like crashing a party you're not invited to and tramping all over the expensive rug in your muddy boots. It's like wandering into the shot made up as a zombie when someone's making a romantic movie - the director screams, "Get out of the shot!" and security starts dragging you away. You defend yourself by saying, "But zombies are cool! Everything's better with zombies!" The director is saying, "Go make your own zombie movie. It's not what we're doing here."
     
    Chiv likes this.
  2. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    This is right, I think a part of the laziness on the part of fanfiction is about this sort of thing. It's a lot like, and I can't really tell the difference, someone who reads a book and doesn't take the time or effort required to understand it. If they can't understand it = bad. If they think they understand it, all well and good.

    Catcher in the Rye
    is the perfect example of this, a lot of people I have noticed only read it on the superficial level. They don't work to understand Caulfield as a person, they just want to condemn him or praise him as some sort of counter-cultural rebellious kid.

    This is lazy reading in the same way fanfiction is lazy writing.
     
  3. AlannaHart

    AlannaHart Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    203
    Location:
    Australia
    @minstrel I don't understand where the 'you're ruining my hard work' comes from. Someone that writes about your characters, even if they write something atrocious, isn't making profit or a lasting impression upon your work. There's all sorts of filthy, terrible Harry Potter fanfiction out there, and it has no effect at all on the integrity of the books. When you think Harry Potter, you don't think 'Harry/Dumbledore slash' (I should hope), but it's out there. So it seems quite petty to deprive people of the right to harmlessly frolic in the world you created.
     
    Swiveltaffy likes this.
  4. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I think because if someone were to write a Catcher fanfic about Holden becoming a communist or something and then going to Cuba to fight in the revolution there, it would pretty much ignore the entire point of the original novel.
     
  5. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    But fanfic does not change the original. I doubt very much if anyone reading fanfic doesn't know what they are reading - ie, not an official extension of the original. They aren't going to assume that the fanfic writer knows the character's better - they are going to know that this is merely a 'what-if' on the part of the fanfic writer.

    Honestly, one might as well say "No one can discuss the theme of this story unless I'm there to make sure they get it right!". Once the book is out there, people will interpret it in any way they choose - and very few will get it 'right'.
     
  6. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    If you declare every piece of fanfiction as non-canon, you'd be right. Is that how it works?
     
  7. AlannaHart

    AlannaHart Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    203
    Location:
    Australia
    But it wouldn't effect the original novel and it would make the writer, and any other muppet that likes it, happy. I understand that it would annoy people with good taste, but we could quite easily ignore it.
     
  8. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Are these responses not also demonstrating that fanfiction is a lesser form of expression, where it's defenders are saying 'Well, if it's not canon, ignore it, people might enjoy it but it's a diversion - it's not worth the effort of criticizing'?

    I actually think fanfiction is worth criticizing anyway, thus I do it.
     
    AlannaHart likes this.
  9. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    9,991
    Location:
    Near Sedro Woolley, Washington
    You're missing my point. I said I don't want to make fanfic illegal, and by that I mean I don't want to prevent people from writing it. I'm not trying to deprive them of the right to frolic in my world.

    What I am saying is this: It is disrespectful for them to want to frolic harmlessly in my world. There's an unlimited number of worlds - an infinite number of worlds - that they can create for themselves. But they don't. They come into my house, uninvited, and crash my party. I know it doesn't matter as far as my work is concerned, but why do they think that crashing other people's parties is the thing to do? Why do they think it's appropriate to just invite themselves in? Didn't their parents teach them any manners?

    I said earlier that I don't write fanfic. There are worlds and characters other writers have created that I love, but I'm not even tempted to write fanfic about them. Part of that is because I respect those writers and their work, and I don't want to sully it. I feel like I would be drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa if I wrote fanfic. It's disrespectful of the original work. My value system doesn't let me do it. My ego makes me not want to - it makes me want to create my own worlds, my own characters. I'm wondering why fanfic writers don't feel the same.
     
    Chiv and Lemex like this.
  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Fanfic is rarely about disagreement with the original. It's an enhancement. Not a "no...", or even a "but...". It's usually a "yes! and..." People who write fanfic generally do it because they love the original, not because they disagree with it.

    So how DO you handle editing? (Sorry, I'm not sure if you publish. But if you do...) When an editor suggests a change, is that person pissing on your work and saying you don't understand the world? When a critic doesn't like something about your work, is THAT person pissing on it?
    But the movie HAS BEEN MADE. No one's interfering with the original movie, or the book, or the party, or whatever. The author wrote the work. It's done. If you want to use the party analogy - People WERE INVITED to a party (because we're talking about published work, here), they had fun, and after it's over they decide they want to have their own. They're going to use some of the same ideas from your party because they were so much fun, but they're going to invite their own friends and change a few things. Is that a problem? For the movie analogy - something similar. No one's messing with the original movie. They're making their own movie, and maybe it's low budget, but it's not affecting the reality of the movie already made. (What was Shawn of the Dead but somebody adding zombies to a regular movie, and/or adding humour to a zombie movie?)
     
    Simpson17866 likes this.
  11. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Yet they sometimes do it despite not understanding it, and not even being aware of the fact, like my example of someone writing a Catcher fanfic about Holden fighting in the Cuban revolution.
     
  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Though this thread is already grown longer than than an Arrakeen sand worm, I'll give my 2p to the last few opinions on screen. I don't personally hold too tightly to the idea of a franchise being sacred ground, not to be trod, but I respect the feelings of those who do see it that way. I would actually take it as a compliment were someone to write fanfiction within one of my worlds, with the only caveat that they not lampoon me personally as a writer . I've written lots of fanfic, especially DUNE fanfic. Never about the original main characters, but instead about the lives of the Fremen who intrigued me deeply since childhood, and always set before the coming of the Atreides so that I can play with other happenstances that don't need to take that huge shift into account. I don't think that's disrespectful. To me it's a tip of the hat to Herbert who engaged me so very much and gave me reason to reach for the keyboard.

    The argument that fanfic is lazy compared to "original" fic.... *shrug* Is a ballerina of world renown lazier in her perfect execution of Swan Lake than her experimental/freestyle counterpart? I think there can be no answer to that because the point of each is so different, and the expectation of the audience is different, though they are technically doing the same thing. What they do have in common is an exercise in discipline. The freestyler can't just flail around and call that dance. She has to bring purpose and reason that the viewer can appreciate and interpret and metabolize. The discipline of the ballerina needs no explanation.
     
  13. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Good point actually. However, fanfiction is often separate from the original in one important sense, it isn't an adaption of the original, but instead a heavy appropriation of the original's ideas. If you go to see Wagner's Ring Cycle preformed by the London Opera House, you are still getting Wagner's notes, in essentially the same phrasing, in essentially the same way as Wagner first had it. Fanfiction of Wagner would be someone taking a scene from the Ring Cycle, and then using Wagner's style to tell a different aspect of the story, or expand on it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  14. Swiveltaffy

    Swiveltaffy Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2014
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    201
    Location:
    Roanoke, TX
    @minstrel :

    *I would clarify that I notice that I'm hitting the fringe of the focus of this thread, and if it is deemed that I am too far gone, I will stop.

    I'm curious: why is someone else altering your work in a negative way automatically disrespectful. Personally, I feel like that is a forced mode of reception. Why can't this be scene as more creation, an expansion of the previous? Why must it be received as such a bastardly thing? I don't understand this profound attachment. I'm all for being happy with your work, toiling over it, and feeling proud; but, resenting another's interpretative addition is something, to me, against art itself. What is the reason anyone does anything relative to creation? -- whether it be a musical, literary, or painterly work? In my mind, there is only one goal: expression. If it is garbage, it does not matter, and though we may form opinions, we ought be glad that expression has occurred. In my mind, it is the same as with any other sort of expression, if it defames, ridicules, praises, bolsters, so be it -- this is the crazed stage of man's expression; little makes sense, it is an absurd world and an irrational stage-setter and actor, and everything can be beautiful, even by the fact that it is devoid of such a characteristic. What is the point in this ownership? You can have your cake and let others eat it too.
     
  15. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    To anybody here arguing against fan fiction as an art form: have you ever Googled "misconceptions about fan fiction?"
     
    BayView and AlannaHart like this.
  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Ok. I don't see this as a negative. Before I say anything else, allow me to interject that in fanfic, just as in all things, there is shameful, terrible, bad, acceptable, good, better, and best. With that in mind, and not falling into the trap of thinking that fanfic always falls into the first three and rarely aspires to acceptable, the audience for fan-fiction has a defined expectation when one is looking at the good, better and best. There is a form laid down by the canon original that must be followed in structure, in tone, in verbiage, in color, in all of that. There is a discipline to it when the writer is earnest. It's shit when it's shit for the same reason that all shitty writing is shitty when it's shitty. If I write a love story between two young Fremen in the hostile environment, both physically and politically, of Arrakis, if I use that as a POV from which to see Herbert's world, I think I have done something original. As a writer who aspires to be a good writer, I would respect that world, present it correctly, even if it be for my own purposes, because there are uncounted purposes in the lives of the Fremen and the people living on Caladan and Giedi Prime. If I write a story about the training and formation of a young Bene Gesserit, I explore her world of extreme discipline and self discovery. I revel in her attainment of things unimaginable to us today. I would write her world correctly and faithfully to the tone and style of Herbert. Again, it would be an exercise not only in creativity, but also in disciplining myself to a form that is known and studied and respected. I see no negative in that.
     
  17. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    It's not a negative, but it is the essential difference between fanfiction and something like a modern staging of the Ring Cycle. Of course, modern stagings can be excellent, fanfiction can be excellent. What it is doesn't have any effect on the quality.
     
    Wreybies likes this.
  18. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    9,991
    Location:
    Near Sedro Woolley, Washington
    I know. I was just using the disagreement notion as an example of the worst that could happen, as far as the original writer is concerned. I'm not trying to say that every fanfic is an attempt to destroy the original. Sorry if I gave that impression.


    I'm not published yet, but I'd like to be! :) Whether the editor you mention is pissing on my work depends on the suggestion she makes. If I've written a story about an Amish farmer with nine children, and she suggests I change him to a transvestite drug dealer in the Bronx, I'd think she's pissing on my work. If her suggestion enhances what I'm trying to do, I'd probably accept it.
     
  19. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    And yet, that ignores what so many have said - it is out of respect and love for the source material that people write fanfic.

    Because many, if not most, fanfic writers don't want to be writers - they want to be part of the fandom, and choose writing as their method of doing so. Some discover or renew a love for writing via fanfic, but not all. Why is that so hard for people to understand? It's not about the writing!
     
  20. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    We know, but the fact is, it is still writing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
    minstrel likes this.
  21. Ulramar

    Ulramar Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    243
    It's not respecting the source material if the writer of the source material says "Please don't write fanfic!" That's disrespectful.
     
    Chiv likes this.
  22. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,742
    Likes Received:
    9,991
    Location:
    Near Sedro Woolley, Washington
    Maybe I haven't been clear enough. In my previous posts, I'm not trying to object to fanfic from the point of view of the original writer. I'm just wondering what the motivation is for the fanfic writer. I don't know how the fanfic writer justifies wanting to write fanfic.

    What I'm getting at is that I, personally, don't want to write fanfic because I would feel like I'm crashing someone else's party. I would feel like I'm drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa. I would feel like I'm spoiling something I admire very much. I'm not such an egomaniac that I'd think I'm improving on something I didn't create in the first place. I would be asking myself, "What gives me the right to do this? What makes me think I'm such a genius that I can improve on the work of (fill in the blank)?"

    My ego does, however, make me want to write my own stuff. When I read/see/hear something I like and admire, my reaction is not to fanfic it, but to create my own work that surpasses it (I hope!).

    I don't understand why other people don't feel that way. :confused: People puzzle me a lot. Maybe that's one reason I write.
     
  23. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    7,851
    Likes Received:
    3,339
    Location:
    Boston
    @minstrel, if it makes you feel any better, I sympathize with your point of view.
     
    minstrel likes this.
  24. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Correct me if I'm wrong, the original poster asked for a cross-section of opinions, not a battle for whose opinion is "right".

    This isn't the Debate Pit.
     
  25. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    When I write fanfic, I'm not thinking this at all. I don't think anyone can improve on Herbert's work. His son, Bryan, most definitely can't. :whistle: That's not my drive or impetus. My ego isn't involved. My daydreaming is what's in gear. Such a huge world, so many other stories to be told in it. You know that I have my own work. You know that I slave away at looking for uniqueness in a haystack of it's-all-been-done (little disposable "flash-drive" males with brain flaps ;) ). Writing fanfic is an exercise for me, a playground. For me it answers to a paradigm that I think a lot of writers miss on the whole and in general and away from the idea of fan-fiction altogether. There must be practice. Practice, practice, practice. Stories you toil over for the sake of toiling, not for some expected publication. Fan-fic fills that roll for me. ;)
     
    shadowwalker and minstrel like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice