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Discussion in 'Support & Feedback' started by Christopher Snape., Oct 20, 2014.

  1. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I didn't know you and Kat had joined the military. That's pretty cool!
     
  2. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I don't know how I'd really describe myself. I'm certainly in the left, I might be called an anarchist, or a socialist, or both. I'm for gun control but against banning guns. I'm an anti-capitalist but not against business, I think some aspects of the economy should not be under state control. Or community control. My conception of anarchism is not a free for all, it is more like 5th century Athens. A sort of pure democracy. While I am anti-capitalist, if it is what the people want it is what they should have. I believe those who create produce should own it, and use it to help the community - the workers. The workers should get the benefits of the economy.

    I guess I'm a socialist libertarian.
     
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  3. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Or, perhaps, like me, you're looking at the list of choices and thinking, "Who wrote this list? Why does this have to go with that? This list is shite."
     
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  4. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Maybe, I like that.
     
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  5. sunsplash

    sunsplash Bona fide beach bum

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    This reminds me of when chat rooms first came about. A/S/L anyone? ;)
     
  6. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    14/F/Ky/Police officer. :whistle:
     
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  7. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    I started out as an Ayn Rand-influenced libertarian when I was a teen, and into my early twenties. I gradually cured myself of that and became a proud liberal (mostly). Why did I do this? I found that being a libertarian (Objectivist-flavored) was making me miserable. I found I hated having to defend that point of view. I hated having to argue against the interests of the poor and the downtrodden, and to stick up for some of the goddamn fucks who are trying to destroy the world just so that they can have more yachts and mansions and private jets. (I'm looking at you, Koch brothers. I'm looking at you, Walton family.)

    I don't think all billionaires are evil. Some of them are doing amazing things with their money (I'm looking at you, Larry Page and Sergei Brin of Google. And a few other visionaries.)

    I found that, once I got more comfortable with advocating higher taxes on the rich (hey, it really doesn't ruin their lives or put a crimp in their lifestyles), I could support better wages, equal pay for women, affordable health care for everyone, free education, etc. I started sleeping better at night, and I started liking myself a whole lot more. I also started liking the people I was hanging out with more. You ever try hanging out with a bunch of Objectivists? It's horrifying.

    I have to say that, while I support the right to own guns (I used to have a couple of hunting rifles), I object to people carrying military weapons into grocery stores. Do they really need that kind of firepower when they're just going out to get some bread and eggs? I especially object to people carrying these weapons into bars. That's actually legal in some parts of the USA, and the idea of some drunkards with AR15s getting into a fight over a football game or something scares the bejeezus out of me.
     
  8. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I have, and you are right.

    And I too object to the idea of open carry. To me it's kind of childish. I have no problem with mature, mentally stable people owning and using guns in a careful and respectable way. I used to own a shotgun, and have used a rifle, shotgun, and even fired an AK-47 once. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over the idea of hurting some man-child's ego with the state taking his belt-fed machine gun away.

    I honestly do think it's kind of childish, it always reminds me of this:

     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  9. jonahmann

    jonahmann Active Member

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    I'm a 25-year-old male student.

    Here's the political compass.

    http://politicalcompass.org/

    The test puts me at very communistic and anarchistic. I consider myself a socialist.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Swiveltaffy

    Swiveltaffy Contributor Contributor

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    @jonahmann :

    I'm very slightly more Left and slightly less Libertarian.
     
  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    [​IMG]
     
  12. Swiveltaffy

    Swiveltaffy Contributor Contributor

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    It sure would suck to be the person who's at the top right.
     
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  13. Christopher Snape.

    Christopher Snape. Member

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    Well yeah, his father abused him as a child and his mother died when he was 18. He spent his youth homeless and ending up harbouring deep vitriol towards the Jewish people.

    But he spent 12 years as the leader of a whole country, so it couldn't have been all bad.
     
  14. Swiveltaffy

    Swiveltaffy Contributor Contributor

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    And he could grow better facial hair than me, so there you go.
     
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  15. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Can anyone grow facial hair anymore or are we all out of testosterone?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
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  16. Ben414

    Ben414 Contributor Contributor

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    Hmm... I think that political quiz skews towards libertarian too much. I want government intervention to achieve substantive freedom as I see it (i.e. freedom in terms of focusing on the choices available rather than the ability to make any choice that is available), yet that quiz listed me as halfway down the libertarian line. Authoritarian does not necessarily mean rule for the few over the many; it just means an extensive power to rule.

    Oh well. I'm a rarity in the US who likes a lot of what John Dewey had to offer in his conception of pragmatism, which tried to balance the best parts of capitalism with the best parts of socialism.
     
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  17. sprirj

    sprirj Senior Member

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    I was just wondering why USA over all other countries? UK? Is it because the UK doesn't have a 'constitution' as such? I'd like to know what you see as the differences?
     
  18. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    Oh, I was just referring to attitudes, not actions. But I guess you guessed that. ;)


    I'd be wary of using insults like "man-child" since some of those people might be, well, good people who are simply interested in e.g. collecting WWII military weapons or something, i.e. they aren't all childish, dangerous man-children who need to compensate for a small, defunct penis, for instance.

    And yeah, to specify: I'm also a big supporter of the right kind of gun control, i.e. thorough background checks, extensive and annual training courses and tests where people are taught not only the safe and responsible use of firearms, but things like the law, the ins and outs, dos and don'ts of using firearms in a self-defense scenario, ballistics, tactics, how to carry safely and responsibly etc, but that those who pass the annual practical and written tests can own any type of small arms, including rifles capable of full-auto fire (since it's pretty useless as far as killing goes: I'd rather be sprayed at in full-auto than shot at in semi-auto).

    The reason why I don't mind people carrying ARs and AKs to grocery stores and such is that while I think it's stupid, I don't want to restrict other people's freedom to do so if they so desire. I wouldn't see it as much of an added threat if concealed carry was allowed since I'd still have my concealed pistols, i.e. the capacity to fight back should someone start shooting. In a confined space, like a shop, a pistol can even be a more practical weapon than a long, clunky rifle, but that comes down to philosophy of use, and that's a whole other topic about which I could write walls of text, but I don't think this is the right venue for that. Suffice to say, I'm a firm believer in proper training and execution over increased firepower. :cool:


    In my case the UK (like my home country, Finland) is simply too controlling: ban this, ban that, i.e. trying to fix a software problem (people's desire to hurt others) with hardware solutions (e.g. banning firearms, knives etc). I prefer freedom even if it means some jackass might gun me down with a legally owned, legally carried firearm. Hence the preference of the US over the UK and Finland.
     
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  19. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Don't misunderstand me. People who want to collect guns, are interested in guns, and want to shoot guns for sport or hunt, I have absolutely no problem with. I used to be one of them, and I still like clay-pigeon shooting and shooting at paper targets - guns can be a lot of fun. I don't want to see guns banned because the people who use them responsibility are very responsible, and it's not my place to tell them what to do.

    However, guns are to me like cars. If you can't be responsible and safe with them you shouldn't have them. If someone is a threat to others, is emotionally unstable, and are immature in nature then I do have a problem with them owning a gun; and in this respect I have no sympathy at all with appeals to 'government came and terk ma freedom!' because what about the 'freedom' of the people you threaten just by having possession of a weapon you cannot control.
     
  20. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Hmph, the video doesn't work on my comp, so maybe it would've explained it, but out of curiosity why do you think (all) open carry is childish? Or just lugging a machine gun around, or some other weapon that seems to have no practical use in urban areas? Personally, I don't think is childish as much as it's just nuts -- and seems terribly inconvenient too! And of course, it's bound to scare people...

    I think, as a woman, I might actually feel quite a bit safer if I could carry openly. But I'd be happy with concealed carry too, just any carry, so I wouldn't have to rely on pepper spray (oh wait, that's illegal too) my own puny fists or downright avoidance of public places after 10pm on weekends (it's nice to hear things like "I feel safer in London than in Helsinki" from foreigners, so the illusion of peaceful nordic countries is just that, an illusion).

    But apart from wanting the right to protect and arm myself, I'm really quite leftist. Unfortunately there is no political party I can truly support because leftists always have self-defense restrictions (not by that name, of course) in their agenda while what they're doing to reinforce public safety is either ineffective or will take a long time to work.
     
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  21. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Because what is really the point? As you say it'll scare people, and it is to me the message 'I don't see myself as a part of civilization'. To me it makes people look like they think they live in some video game, like Fallout, when there is a danger around each corner. So to me it's childish, I can't see it as anything more than living a fantasy if it was to become a thing here in the UK. There isn't any need to take a rifle to go shopping. I suppose, if you lived somewhere utterly dire then a pistol is at least understandable, but surely the point of a pistol would be to conceal it.

    I live in the north of England - we have our problems, but none enough so that carrying a weapon would ever cross my mind, so where you from will affect your opinion I suppose. I like being in places like Italy and Greece where police open carry, I'm comfortable with that, but when it's civilians it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I also like the fact that the British police don't carry guns, to me that's a sign of how safe most of England is.

    Also I live in a small village, and I know the local bobbie. He's an idiot, the type I imagine would use a handgun to shoot holes in the ground to help him with his gardening.
     
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  22. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    How do you know the person who legally owns, say, a belt-fed machine gun is a nut like that if all he does is owns the piece?

    Here's also where we just disagree: I don't see owning a piece of any gear as inherently threatening. Perhaps if it was a weapon that could do extensive damage, like a MOAB, nuclear warhead, a vial of anthrax, or some such (that can't even be used recreationally). Of course a functional, heavy machine gun is a very different thing from a full-auto rifle, so a machine gun that can punch through thick walls doesn't serve any real purpose in civilian use, but honestly... I don't feel threatened by anyone simply owning even those. Now, if they threaten me or anyone else with said weapon or otherwise behave in a manner that warrants suspicion that they will use said weapon for illegal purposes, that's a different matter.

    Therein, I believe, lies the difference between our views: I'm willing to take the risk in the name of freedom that some nut some day tries his luck against armed civilians, guards, and patrolling police officers with an immobile, clumsy, and relatively inaccurate weapon that isn't all that well-suited for mass murder in an armed society (after all, they, like most full-auto weapons, were designed for a different purpose).


    Like @KaTrian suggested, one option for a woman is to carry a pistol openly to deter possible assailants since, according to research, they aren't looking for a challenge, but an easy victim. That translates into an unarmed woman in a lot of cases, so if such an assailant saw a gun on a woman's hip, he'd likely choose another victim instead of risking death.


    Here again we arrive at a different set of principles: @KaTrian and I, for instance, believe that anything can happen anywhere at any time. That means there is no such thing as a completely safe place. That means we cultivate what some call a "relaxed state of paranoia," i.e. our minds work like they do while we're driving a car: we keep an eye on our surroundings (it happens automatically while we e.g. have a conversation, eat at a restaurant, go shopping, hang out with our friends etc. meaning we're not jumping at shadows and living in constant, all-consuming fear of an imminent attack: of the color codes, I'd say we're around the low yellow level most of the time, i.e. we're relaxed but aware of our surroundings while orange is us noticing suspicious activity, red is fight or flight, and black is being in a fight while white is being utterly oblivious to any possible threats) and take note when we see someone who seems suspicious. That means we accept the fact that a drunk driver could hit us while we're driving off our own driveway on a Monday morning. for instance; you simply can't avoid all threats no matter how careful you are if you just happen to be unlucky, and I, for one, don't like relying on luck when it comes to my safety or that of my loved ones.

    Likewise, violence isn't restricted to ghettos or such. More than one woman has been raped by a "friend" in a supposedly safe setting. Many people are beaten up in a "safe" area. After all, some criminals are drawn to wealth.
    The worst cases are those with multiple assailants: not even your average police officer armed with OC and a baton (or whatever the cops in the UK carry) could handle an aggressive group of, say, 4-10 determined guys who often come prepared, i.e. armed with whatever they can find (usually knives, even chef's knives). There are plenty of cases even in the UK where, for whatever reason, a group (usually young men) target an individual, a family, or another group regardless of gender, age, or location. The sad thing is, they don't nearly always get the help of the police: either there's no evidence before the violence has occurred, or the police can't get there in time to prevent the crime.

    Some friends and family I've discussed this with have been disturbed by our world-view, saying it's extremely dark and fear-inducing. To us, it's just being realists. We'd rather spend a little extra effort to prepare for the worst while hoping for the best, putting on the proverbial seatbelt, and hopefully live out our lives without ever having to use our self-defense skills or equipment in the future.

    Experience is a harsh mistress, though, and I was never so glad to have trained real self-defense (which includes awareness/avoidance tactics, dealing verbally with an aggressive person etc.) as when we were on a jog in a peaceful, rich area in broad daylight and were harassed by three drunkards with the clear intention of causing us bodily harm (both of us since the main guy, a big, muscular thug, didn't seem to have any qualms with tackling us both against the railing of a bridge).
    If I had lived under the belief that there are safe areas, I wouldn't have noticed them in time to react and I probably wouldn't have spent even what little time I have spent training and preparing for such a situation as I have because I wanted to be prepared for the worst. Just in case. I can honestly say that it was only due to my training and mindset that I managed to resolve the situation with a couple of defensive, light shoves and words while Kat ran to a safe distance, preparing to dial the police (like we had previously agreed in case we encountered aggressive people).

    That time we were lucky: I managed to talk them down for long enough for us to run away, but, as I said, I don't like relying on luck. That robs me of my freedom and places me at the mercy of whatever asshole decides to attack me/us, and I'd rather not trust an asshole's sense of compassion or mercy which they probably don't even have in the first place or they wouldn't be targeting a couple on a Sunday jog in a nice, expensive neighborhood with low crime rates.

    Maybe this isn't the way, just a way, but I see no harm in preparation as long as you don't let it consume your whole life. That's when it becomes paranoia and turns into needless fear when it could be no more invasive than the awareness you cultivate while driving.

    Okay, I'll shut up now so as not to hijack the thread too badly. :D
     
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  23. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    These things can be pretty easily tested for, with psychological evaluations as just one example. They do happen in this country if police flag up a concern with a gun-licence applicant and feel it is necessary to have one. Any system I could make up right now would have it's problems, but that'll be true of any system. And at least it's taking some kind of social responsibility.

    Then you will have to forgive me if this misrepresents your views, but that would create a society that is the wrong kind of Anarchy. The sort of society people who mock Anarchists say Anarchists want - a place of warlords and the rule of gangs, so void of laws and reasonableness that I wouldn't like to live in it. I like the fact I don't need a .45 just to go get a six pack of beer, I like the fact some group of people are not going to come to my house and out number me, and my neighbors not doing anything to help me.

    What you are proposing is a bit too idealistic, and while I too am a passionate upholder of individual rights, not everyone is reasonable. Some people are just asshats who will abuse any power they have, and take it as far as they can for their own selfish ends. I've seen too much of the bad in mankind to not think of the worst case scenario.

    Why not something non-lethal like a can of tear gas spray? I obviously don't know what it's like to be a woman, or to be a woman who feels the need to leave the house armed, but in my mind if you even need to consider that something has gone seriously wrong in your local area. It would be better to fix those problems than wonder around armed, surely.

    But then again, I fully realize my attitude comes from one of privilege. I know from teaching in an inner city school that my students knew how to at least get guns - that is another world to the one I grew up in, but I can't not talk from my cultural perspective. However, I still think most people don't want to live awful lives (some I'm convinced do) and I'd rather help the most amount of people hands on than give an area up as a 'no go without a gun' zone.

    When driving I would of course am very mindful of potential stupids on the road, but I've never really been one to worry when I'm in a cafe, or out on a run, or off to the cinema. Again, this will obviously reflect where I come from, but when I'm not driving I'm totally at ease, relaxed, and not even thinking of dangers. Mostly because I'm not really at danger unless I do something stupid, like go to a bad area - like when I was walking around Sunderland, I knew where the bad areas were, and when I first went to London I was on edge at first, but when I settled in I was happy enough to be pretty much care free.

    I think it mostly comes from the fact that I trust people around me not to be particularly interested in me. Aside from the odd crazy homeless person, even when out drinking I've never really had someone try to start a fight with me. I guess I trust civilization to keep me safe, which seems to me the point of why humans banded together in the first place, so people didn't need to be ready to kill each other.

    Don't think I can't understand it, but I've never had a reason to be careful. And lethal force should only be a last resort. If I was attacked you better bet I'd want to not only go to hurt, but if I need to go to kill, but I'd rather not walk around with the capacity to kill. I don't want my life dominated potentials - the potential is there, but there are things you can do to avoid it, and also as someone who has almost died once in his life I feel lucky in knowing I don't fear death. If my 'time is up', I'll not really mind all that much, and that is something I feel confident in saying know. I don't want to offend anyone's religious beliefs in saying this, but I 'know' that death will be the end of everything for me, it's a slip into nothing.
     
  24. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    Personally, I use my small, defunct penis to compensate for the huge Humvee in my driveway and the incredible arsenal of guns I have in my garage. Also for the massive elephant tusks hanging over the fireplace. :p

    (I'm just kidding. I actually don't use my small, defunct penis to compensate for anything. I just like to remember the old days when it was big and funct.)
    :D
     
  25. Swiveltaffy

    Swiveltaffy Contributor Contributor

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    You're right, we better start arcing our arms in rebellion.
     

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