Starting stories with flashbacks?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Thunder_Bard, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    Well, now. By this I assume that you never eat the appetizers/starters at a full-course meal. And you always show up after the overture at a musical play.

    I also assume you're fond of the ever-popular "As you know, Bob . . . " and of people suddenly talking about things that happened a long time ago that they would never talk to anyone about except maybe their shrink. Or maybe we can make do with a twenty year time gap between Chapter 1 and Chapter 2. But I forgot: people-- especially characters in books-- don't have pasts. They live in the present moment alone. :wtf:
     
  2. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    If you start with him as a boy or younger man you won't have to do a flashback. Get in there with the present day of that earlier time, show what that scene with his father was like, show it well, then by whatever device you choose bring us up to the present day.

    Since his father's death is something that happened and presumably is still affecting him (or you wouldn't feel the urge to show events surrounding it, right?), I wouldn't muck with having the MC recall it in a recurring dream. For one thing, you'll have a hard time convincing your readers that such series of dreams is anything more than a convenient plot device. For another, dreams are notorious for being distorted and symbolic, and it's highly unlikely that each one would show a little more about what happened in that handy way.

    If you decide not to show the seminal event in a prologue, and if you don't want your character to be blabbing about his past to a friend or a shrink, I think triggered memories as @FrankieWuh suggests might be a good way to go.
     
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  3. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    As a reader I'm not bothered by prologue or flashback. Only book that ever annoyed me with it was when the flashbacks were essentially standalone novelettes with no common characters or threads with the original.

    If you're writing or not writing a prologue based on what you think an agent will or won't want to see - you've at least partially lost the plot. Writing is first and foremost an art, not a business. Not that it isn't a business, but in the art business, putting art second to business is good for neither the art nor the business.

    There is no "right way" regarding this subject - trends yes, but not laws or absolutes. If you hate flashback prologues fine, put the book down. I'll read it.

    I know my prologue is integral to the text and most of my alpha readers like it a lot. Other prologues I've advised people to remove. It's about execution, not hard fast laws.
     
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  4. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    I hardly think your sarcasm was necessary. An opinion was asked for. I offered it. You don't have to agree with me but your condescending reply is both uncalled for and unproductive. None of what you said really makes any sense. At no point did my reply ever suggest that characters should have no pasts. You don't NEED a prologue to convey anything you just mentioned. A story can be written without a prologue. But you don't start a book with Chapter 2.

    As I said, you don't have to agree with me but you can take your snide and disrespectful attitude and kindly shove it.
     
  5. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    I agree. But I never mentioned anything about hard fast laws. I merely shared my opinion on the use of prologues. That doesn't make it right. But I've never read a book that I felt required a prologue. In my humble opinion, there is nothing that a prologue can accomplish that chapter 1 can't do just fine on its own.

    As for flashbacks, I just don't like them. They take me out of the immediacy of the story. It's one thing when a character is relaying past events to another character or even to the reader. In fact, I would say that I am more tolerant of flashbacks in first-person narratives. But that boils down to personal taste. The only time flashback scenes would turn me off the entire book is if they are so numerous that they interrupt the flow of the story.

    As for a flashback prologue, well, that would never cause me to put a book down because I don't read prologues. I do like the idea of a prologue being used to show an excerpt from within the story, much the way Brent Weeks did in his first novel (I can't recall the title).
     
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  6. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    I apologize if my tone kept you from understanding what I was trying to say.

    What I object to was the implication that flashbacks always involve "telling," e.g.,
    If that's all flashbacks do, how is an author supposed to show the reader what happened in the past? Just depicting what triggered the memory isn't enough. "The scent of Imprevu teased his nostrils and he remembered." Remembered what? Cue flashback!

    Your statement made me think you feel that all good stories are strictly chronological. What else am I supposed to think when I read this--->
    For that matter, it's a misconception that "telling" is always an evil in a novel. Used judiciously and in the right places, it's essential.

    Re: Your opinion on prologues, I wonder if the problem is not the format itself but how it is handled. Infodumps are bad, yes; loss-leader teasers, no good at all; but not all prologues are infodumps or smoke-and-mirrors to sell a dull book.

    I am interested in your take on the question I asked: If the material that traditionally would be placed in a prologue should always be moved to Chapter 1, how do we keep the reader from suffering from jetlag when we fast-forward him several years to the "present-day" events of Chapter 2? Doesn't that create as much of a "Huh?" moment as a flashback?

    You found my post sarcastic; yours struck me as needlessly didactic. Let's call it even.

    No, I'll yield you this: I will not invite you to perform an anatomically-impossible act. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  7. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  8. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    Are you incapable of disagreeing with someone in one hand without using the other to insult them? Your tone did not keep me from understanding you. It kept me from giving a crap about your opinion. If you are incapable of acting like a pompous jerk when you disagree with something that I say then kindly refrain from replying to anything I say.

    You seem to be misunderstanding exactly what a flashback is. A flashback is an entirely new scene that takes you out of of what is happening in the now and takes you backwards in time. There is a difference between a character recalling something from their past and using an entirely new scene to describe that recollection. I do not think all good stories are chronological but if you choose to make a gross assumption based off of such little information then I will leave you to your ignorance. It is of no concern to me. But I would suggest that in the future, if you are confused by something that someone says, you try ASKING them a question first rather than making a sarcastic reply and then attempting to insult them.


    I think the only thing you're interested in attempting to cleverly and subtly insult someone who has a different opinion than you. That much is obvious from the very first line in your post and the last. It is also obvious because your question has already been answered but you wouldn't know that because you're too focused on thinly-veiled insults. I don't read prologues and I can't stand reading a story that starts out with a flashback. So I would suggest NOT starting a story with a flashback and instead start it within the the main time period in which it takes place and then revealing whatever information that flashback contained gradually as it is needed.

    As for your didactic accusation, that's based off of your skewed perception. Your sarcastic reply, however was blatantly obvious. The OP made a post asking opinions and that's what I gave him. My opinion. My opinion on prologues or flashbacks does not make me right. Nor does your disagreeing with me make you right. If you read my original post and felt like I was saying that this is the way to do it and that's the only way then that's your own fault. I am not responsible for your reading comprehension. Also, I am not going to go out of my way to claim that everything that I say is my opinion just so I can soothe the teeming ego of a puts like you.

    And honestly, if anybody is being didactic, it is you:

    So that makes it true. Because you said so. Right?

    I never insulted the original OP. I never went out of my way to hold myself above them, put them down, or to tell them that they are doing something wrong. No. I only gave them exactly what they asked for; an opinion. Meanwhile, you chose to misinterpret my reply as something that it is not and then pretended to be some gallant white knight riding to the rescue. So pull your head out of the clouds and grow up. We all play pretend in one way or another when we're writing but that doesn't excuse acting like a child. It is a safe bet that, unless it is obvious or it is stated otherwise, anything said by anybody on the Internet falls under the jurisdiction of an opinion. You would do well to remember that. With or without a flashback scene.
     
  9. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Hmmm. I'm not sure of the actual rules/right way to do it but I kind of introduce the memory, then have five asterisks (centred) and then do the flashback in italics then another five asterisks at the end. I'm probably doing it wrong but that way works for me.
     
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  10. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    With all due respect, Crick, your original post on this thread came across as snarky, aggressive, mean-spirited, and trollish - whether you intended to or not. If you aggressively smack down the person who started the thread AND everyone who commented, you should expect blowback, as you undermined the entire tone of this form. Writers deal with enough unsupportive criticism from outside the community, we don't need it on the inside. If you disagree, fine, but do it without being disagreeable and starting flame wars.
     
  11. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Could you class a dream as a flashback? As someone said, dreams are not always as simple as you think they are but for me, dream sequences or the character shown dreaming while moaning in his sleep during an obvious nightmare, is just so fake and such a turn off.
     
  12. Thunder_Bard

    Thunder_Bard Member

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    Right. I am not sure so i will leave this sequence till later to do and see if I actually need it.
     
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  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Any hoo...

    So I checked out Use of Weapons from the library to see how Banks managed the flashbacks and was surprised to see he started with the dreaded prologue.
    That sounds problematic. Unless it is a dream, why use italics?

    You identify a time shift by the setting and other cues. For example if your protagonist is an adult now and was a child then, refer to the character's age. Refer to other characters in the scene which differ from the scene you left. There are lots of ways to make it clear you are in another time.

    If the flashback is within the chapter, the indication like hashtags or asterisks are fine. If the flashback is very long, make it a new chapter.
     
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  14. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Because when I've used them, I've not flashed back many years, sometimes only a matter of weeks or months and the flash back itself, is written as if it's happening now so I needed to distinguish it from the regular part of the story. I'm surfing on my phone at the moment but when I get back on my lappy, I'll try and explain what I mean.
     
  15. Dunning Kruger

    Dunning Kruger Active Member

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    I would start off with a scene in current day before going to the flashback. I personally think flashbacks work best to highly an emotional experience rather than a factual experience. But to truly appreciate the impact of the flashback it helps to start with the current time.

    For example, if your MC's last conversation with his father was a bitter argument, its much more powerful if you start by establishing that the father has already died. Perhaps he is recalling the exchange at the funeral and regretful that his last words were in anger.

    If you start out with the argument with the father, I dont know why it matters yet. I have no frame of reference to understand the scene's importance. The importance will come out in the next scene when we move forward to the present but you run the risk that the emotion felt by the character is lost.

    OTOH, if the flashback is about a conversation regarding a hidden swiss bank account, there is no emotional leakage. It creates motivation or setting for the MC's actions following the father's death. But then, as others have said, its not a flashback as much as it's the start of the story.

    Just my 2 cents, hope it is useful. Good luck.
     
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  16. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    So basically, in my book we have boy meets girl, they get together etc and then I had this great scene/dialogue where he takes her to a sports game but I just couldn't fit it in where/when it actually happened so I wrote it and set it to one side. Two month after the sports game, he invites her to spend the weekend with him. On the Friday morning, he calls to say he's going to be running late due to work and can she meet him at his apartment if he leaves a key with the doorman. When she gets there, she goes into the bedroom to put her weekend stuff away and sees the photo of the two of them at them sports game. She picks it up and thinks about the outing. Rather than write "I remeber doing this and that, feeling this and that ..." I wrote it as a flash back from her point of view, written in first person present tense. So it puts you in her memories rather than listening to her recalling her memories. Also, as she's on her own in the apartment, it would be a bit daft if she was to start talking to herself about the sports game.

    I hope you understand what I mean.
     
  17. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    And yet the original poster actually liked my original comment. So obviously he did not feel like I was "putting him down". He even said as much to me in a PM. He asked for an opinion and he got it. You are defending him against an attack that does not exist. Nowhere in my initial reply did I state that what I was saying was the all-end-all and that anybody who said anything to the contrary was wrong. YOU are choosing to see these negative things.

    There is nothing in the rules that says I have to agree with the majority consensus concerning a thread's topic. Whenever someone speaks of writing techniques, it is to be assumed that everything they said is opinionated and subjective. If someone is incapable of understanding that then that is not my fault. The simple fact is that I did nothing wrong other than replying to the original sarcasm and letting it get out of hand. But as for my very first reply in this thread, there is nothing wrong with it. The OP asked for opinions concerning flashbacks in story and then I noticed that a few other people brought up the topic of prologues so I shared my view on those two subjects.

    It's my opinion. It doesn't make me right. If you can't tell the difference between sharing an opinion and patronizing then there is nothing I can do about that. If you notice, I responded to your original reply which disagreed with my opinion concerning prologues and flashbacks. Why do you think I responded so differently to someone else? Oh. Maybe it was because of the way in which they chose to approach me. Blatant sarcasm among friends is one thing but when you use it to respond to someone whom you do not know then don't go expecting positive results. As for your assumptions concerning my initial reply in the forum, they are clearly and obviously wrong.

    End of story.

    edit: "And there you have it. Obviously, neither a prologue nor a flashback is enough to ruin a good story. If your characters are engaging and your plot is interesting, even someone like me would ignore these nuances and still manage to enjoy the experience. However, I do strongly suggest that you at least not start the story with a flashback. I always feel like I've been cheated when an author does that and I can say that a lot of other people feel the same way. Critics and non-critics alike. But then everybody's a critic, right?

    Good luck"

    That is the last part of my initial reply. I would like to know how any of that is aggressive or trolling. What do you want me to do to clarify? Add a smiley face? Because I'm not one for emoticons. I am not responsible for another person's reading comprehension. If my opinions bother you that much then ignore me. But don't try calling me out on some nonsense. Especially when said nonsense doesn't have a grain of truth to it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    At least four of us thought you overreacted, @Crick. Just saying...

    We try to keep the snark to the Debate sub-forum. It shows up here from time to time but we are nice people for the most part.
     
  19. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    Nowhere in my initial reply on this thread was I being snarky in any way. I will not deny that I overreacted to the sarcasm that was directed at me for no reason. But I stand by my initial reply. And that is what I was speaking of in my last comment when Lemming claimed that my initial reply on the thread was snarky, aggressive, mean-spirited, and trollish. This is simply not true. All I did was share my freaking opinion. What is so difficult about that to understand? I don't care if you want to back up your friends because you are able to see through their sarcasm as being non-offensive. But when you have a bad attitude in your first meeting with a stranger, you don't have the right to then turn around and play victim.
     
  20. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Sigh...
     
  21. Crick

    Crick New Member

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    My sentiment exactly...
     
  22. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    :sim:

    All right, people, let's get back on topic and move on. If anyone has anything more to say about the conflict, do it via PM or, if you feel some action is necessary, notify one of us mods, and we'll decide if anything needs to be done.

    Anyway, to return to the topic:
    I've said this about many things before, but basically anything can be made to work in a story as long as you do it well.
    Likewise, almost anything can suck if you do it badly, obviously.

    That being said, from my subjective PoV, it looks like some publishers/editors/agents of today seem to dislike prologues. However, I haven't read any interviews or submission guidelines that said that a prologue would be an immediate deal-breaker.

    To me, that means you can get away with a prologue if you have the chops to pull it off really well. If you doubt your ability, then it might be safer to dribble the information revealed in the prologue along the story in bits and pieces wherever they fit without breaking the immersion (which I consider extremely important because immersion is what keeps the reader in the story's world).

    @KaTrian and I had a prologue in our current WIP, but after considering it again in the light of the feedback from all our beta readers, we chose to get rid of it and insert the info from the prologue into the first few chapters and parts in small doses that didn't require big changes in tone or pacing etc. to maintain immersion.

    That being said, scrapping the prologue was the right choice for our story, but it might not be the right move for your story. Everything depends on your story and how you pull things off. Anything can work, anything can suck, it just depends on the execution.

    But that's just my opinion.
     
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  23. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    I don't know . . . if a book started out with an argument, I'd want to know what it was about and who was having the dispute, because by definition it is such an emotionally-charged situation. Especially between a son and his father; that carries an emotional load right there.

    As to its aftereffects, yes, we'd have to wait to see them. But I guess I'm the kind of reader who figures the writer has that in store for me and whatever he/she puts in the prologue/1st chapter/what-have-you is important to the plot. And I'd expect the emotion to change by the present day. From anger to regret, maybe.

    That's how it strikes me, anyway.

    @Thunder_Bard, what you could do, after you've fulfilled your new member obligations and after you've decided the best approach for your novel, is submit your beginning to the Workshop and get some feedback on it.
     
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  24. Dunning Kruger

    Dunning Kruger Active Member

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    Yeah, in retrospect, I think I exaggerated my point. I think its a worthwhile way to think about flashbacks but not nearly as absolute as I presented it. Thanks for pointing it out.
     
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