Okay, that's what I thought you should have been asking. Not what you actually asked, but it does make more sense. Of course, it's a lot harder to really prove, right? I mean, how could we know how creative an author would have been if they hadn't taken a class, how could we know the lack of creativity was as a result of the class, etc. I'm not agreeing with the claims about creative writing courses killing creativity. I'm just saying I don't think it's a question that can be answered either way, except loosely by looking at admired writers and then looking at their education. And since we all probably admire different writers, it's going to be pretty hard to work out.
Well, lots of people get English degrees without taking any creative writing classes, at least where I am. Here, English is more about studying other people's writing, not about writing your own.
Most programs in America require at least one class in which one writes their own material. It's frankly unthinkable that a college would teach people English, without ever offering them an opportunity to contribute to it. Even one class is presumably detrimental to their creative process. I guess will never get to learn all of the things the writers I listed (see: #104) could have done if their creative capacity hadn't been destroyed by learning.
Well, I think everyone is "offered an opportunity" to contribute to English literature, aren't we? Regardless of whether our university requires us to take a creative writing course?
Yeah, I just looked at the undergrad English programs at Harvard and Yale (I don't know a lot of US schools, so I went for name recognition) and they have maximum numbers of creative writing courses that can be applied toward English degrees, but not minimum numbers required. I checked NYU and there's no mention of creative writing at all. So, Jack, maybe it's time for you to back that shit up?
Well I assume that the course is not called "creative writing". The class I'm in now is, "the art and craft of writing" but the principle is the same. I can't imagine studying English for four years, and never taking a class were your own performance in writing was analyzed. It's like being an art history major while having never picked up a paint brush. I've been there, and you sure as shit have to sit down and make your own art at some point. Maybe in England. But I know that degree in writing in the state qualifies as just a BA in English.
King got a BA in English (not Creative Writing) and went on to become a teacher before becoming a full time writer but even he had this to say in his book 'On Writing' “You don’t need writing classes or seminars any more than you need this or any other book on writing. Faulkner learned his trade while working in the Oxford, Mississippi post office. Other writers have learned the basics while serving in the Navy, working in steel mills or doing time in America’s finer crossbar hotels. I learned the most valuable (and commercial) part of my life’s work while washing motel sheets and restaurant tablecloths at the New Franklin Laundry in Bangor. You learn best by reading a lot and writing a lot, and the most valuable lessons of all are the ones you teach yourself.”
NYU - http://english.fas.nyu.edu/object/english.1416.ug.req#major Yale - http://english.yale.edu/undergraduate/requirements-major Harvard - http://english.fas.harvard.edu/undergraduate/guide-for-concentrators/ The creative writing courses at Harvard are classified as "creative writing", and they are only open by application, which suggests that students are regularly rejected from these classes, which would be pretty damn harsh if they were requirements for graduation.
And that's where the argument fails. There is a huge difference in education between England and the US. Creative Writing is a step to one side of English. Of course you will be asked to write reports/dissertations/arguments but this will all be on facts and what you are learning about grammar, punctuation, the classics etc etc, not about creatively making up your own fiction.
From the Harvard Course website: My own matter is split into concentrations, but "The Art and Craft of Writing" is listed in all of the ones that aren't teaching concentrations. I may be wrong on this one. Or at least on the idea that all English programs require a class in writing. If so I apologize. But on creative writing courses being detrimental to the creative process I will stick to my motherfucking guns. There's no evidence for it, and it's self serving nonsense.
Yeah, I don't really think they're detrimental, either. I'd love to take some, and wish I'd taken some when I was in school. But lots of great writers are great without them.
By all means, stick to your guns and I will stick to mine because they are opinions divided not only by people's experiences but also by two different countries with a big frickin ocean between them. And on the subject of Art History, you can learn everything about every artist, all their works, all their strokes from DaVinci to Picasso but that doesn't mean you yourself can pick up a brush and paint a masterpiece.
No it certainly doesn't. But every Art History program requires you to learn how to pick up a brush and put paint on a canvass. The majority of what they produce will be complete crap, believe me. But it's vital to learn how the artist draws.
I agree, but if you want to learn how to do it properly, you take a different course. In the UK, most English courses are based on English Literature/Language with an option to take a peek at creative writing (in some courses) OR you do English Language and Creative writing. Doing the first is no guarantee that CW will be included. Going back the the OP, regardless of what the subject is, do you think it makes a difference to a) other authors, b) agents/publishers, and c) readers, if an author of fiction has a degree or not.
That's actually not how I interpreted the question. I saw, "Will a degree make your work good enough to be published?" And I feel that if you have the latent talent to pursue a degree it can only help you. But like I said, a bunch of people without degrees don't think you need a degree. So the room isn't really with me at this point.
Well, if you're going to play that card, you're one person pursuing a degree arguing that a degree is needed. I'm not quite sure why you think you're any less biased than the rest of the 'room'.
I have no idea why studying creative writing at university would make you less creative. That makes no sense to me. A creative writing course doesn't present you with a list of do's and don't's (at least, the Gotham ones I took didn't). They do, however, make you aware of some issues involved in fiction writing that you might not have otherwise noticed, and that helps you learn faster. It's a bit like learning music - sure, you can teach yourself, but having an instructor to help you makes it go faster and smoother. For that matter, you could teach yourself quantum physics, but having a professor will certainly make it easier. Taking a creative writing course won't make you less creative. It can only help; it cannot hurt. I'm with Jack on this. (Actually, it can hurt, but only if you're fairly unmotivated and uncreative to begin with. If you're in that category - that is, if knowing the "rules" paralyzes you, then you need help in other ways. The creative writing course won't help you.)
No, no. When you take a music class you have to learn about keys and staffs and time signatures. All of that get's in the way of the music and makes you less creative. Just think about how good Bach could have been. If only he hadn't got a hold of his brother's music sheets and ruined it all!
(Bold is mine.) Why is this the assumption here when it comes to writers? Go to college, take the pathway you want to work in, or the one you find most interesting. Education is a good thing. Never stop learning. Will it make you a better writer to get a degree in a literary field? I should hope so. Will it result in you writing the next best seller? No, of course not. But it should still raise your level of expertise in writing. Can you become an excellent writer without going to university? Of course. I've learned how to write outside the formal education setting. By all means, skip the following if you find it boring because some of you will find it preachy. I have spent my lifetime learning and exploring and I wouldn't change that for the world. I got the bug to write only three and a half years ago. Before that, writing was just one of the many dreams on the shelf in my head. But when I decided to write a novel, I looked for every opportunity I could to learn how to write fiction. Were I young without a career direction when I decided to write, I would have soaked up a college education in the literary arts like a sponge. But at that time in my life I wanted to travel the world. I read a book, How to Travel and Get Paid for It. Best job: a teacher. Second best job: a nurse. I went for the second one. And I've never regretted my nursing degree which started with an ADN, later became a BSN and later an MSN. Along the way I worked all over the country, in different kinds of nursing, became certified in ICU, became an FNP, became certified in occupational health and most recently in infection control. All along the way, what made nursing so enjoyable for me was being able to continually learn new things. I did get to travel, a lot. I found it was better to work in the US then use the money to travel rather than working as a nurse in other countries, but that was fine. Education, regardless if it is in a university or gained somewhere else, is the most important thing you can do in your life, second only to having kids and loved ones. I hate to see people in this thread boil the question down to, do I need a degree to be a writer? Because that answer is, no. But should you go to college if you can? That answer is yes. Don't turn college down because you may not make your investment back. That's the wrong way to look at it. Go to college if you have a passion for learning. It you can't afford it, that's fine, get your education elsewhere. But don't dismiss the option for a college education on the basis of not being able to get your investment back. Because learning in and of itself is priceless.
That's assuming that a creative writing course/degree tells you to follow a set of rules. Where does that assumption come from? (Yes, I realize that this debate went rolling along for dozens of posts after this, but I didn't see any backing for this assumption.)
Then you misinterpreted the original question and jumped on one later comment with all your might. Also, how do you know who, from contributors to this thread, has a degree or not?
I'm under the assumptin that, like all courses/exams, you learn a syllabus and answer questions on it. Your answers are either right or wrong as far as the exam goes. If part of the exam asks you to write a 1000 word piece proving you can show rather than tell, you can do that without the piece being brilliant or publishable. I would imagine that the course would require you to take time studying other authors, comparing their prose, their characters, the differences of speech patterns, the differences in language from area to area, how to pull on certain strings to satisfy one genre over the other, what factors decide which genre a story goes into. How to set out a timeline, how to properly research ... A degree in creative writing would certainly give you the tools and understanding to write a book and the proof that, yeah, you've got a degree but not necessarily the time, patience and imagination to craft a full novel and get it out there either by taking it to an agent or self publishing.
