The collected musings of Ryan Elder

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Ryan Elder, Apr 16, 2015.

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  1. jen_writer

    jen_writer Member

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    I don't understand how it wouldn't make sense. There's a lot of films etc about revenge. If you look at the policeman as a character and not as a plot mechanism something about him may provide the basic reason why he would get revenge. I don't think you should change it as having a man get revenge for his wife's murder/rape is done too often. But revenge for killing fellow police seems fine to me.
    I'm no expert but as a reader you wouldn't think it's a 'paradox' you don't over analyse things. Has long as he has motive and it's not against his character to do this what's the problem?
    And there are unsolved cases. And in some instances maybe even corruption or lies that stop justice being done?
    I don't understand why this writing consultant has said this, surely as long as ou can prove the character would geninely do it? And its often done in tv etc so why not in a novel?
    Write it and don't worry about that one person's opinion.
    It's the reader that counts. After all it's not feasible that vampires exist or magic but there's books about that
     
  2. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. I am surprised you say that the revenge for a wife that has been raped is more cliched, cause I actually thought that a cop avenging a cop is more cliched. I have seen that a lot more in comparison so I thought the wife thing would be more original.

    The thing is, is that the villains are of a very specific type of group, with a different background. I cannot make one of them the police chief and still have the plot work the way I want. And if I make them in witness protection, that won't work for what I want either. Basically they have nothing to offer the FBI. It would have to be part of their plan of getting away with the crime. They would have to offer the FBI fake evidence on something, but I think the FBI would eventually see through it and they wouldn't be in witness protection for very long.

    However, in order to have the climax I want and have all they key characters meet in the same place at the same time, I want the killers to remain mystery characters. The cops do not know who they are, but they know where they will be on a certain day and time. I need it to sort of happen this way for the ending I want. Is it possible for the revenge motive to make sense if the cops are going after mystery characters? We the audience know who they are, but to the cops it's a mysterious group, and this one day and time, is the day to get them, or otherwise they may never re surface again, sort of thing. I would like to end it that way, cause it gets everyone in the same place and time, I need, and it gives reason certain events to occur for the climax.

    So is it possible to have them get revenge on mystery characters and still have it work?

    In order for the crooks to get away with their original kidnapping plan in the first place, I need them to be unknown accept for one, who is caught, goes to court and acquitted on lack of evidence though in the first half. However, the others have to remain mystery characters. It makes no sense to make them FBI informants, because the FBI would not give that job to just anybody they do not know.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  3. Nicoel

    Nicoel Senior Member

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    I don't mean to be horribly annoying by going off subject, but what is a "writing consultant" and how do you hire them, and where did they get that job? I've never heard of such a thing.
     
  4. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I found some screenwriting consultants by typing 'script doctor' into google, and a lot of ones come up. They are consultants for screenplays only though, and am not sure where you would find ones for general writing. They got the job by being previous successful screenwriters themselves mostly. However I was also told by another screenwriting consultant that my concept does not work cause I throw logic out the window. But he did not say where and when though. Is their any way I can get much more specific advice to what's wrong?
     
  5. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Didn't read every post but here the thing. The cops revenge is a concept. Concepts don't have plot holes. Exacution of concepts have plot holes.

    If you say the guy killed a cop and has figureprints everywhere was caught on tape and confessed but still got off? Then I would say that is a plot hole. Thing is a plot how this happened. It is up to you to make it believable. Personal I think the concept is completely valid. There are plenty of ways to go with this too. So it is valid in the sense that this is a idea for plot and not actually the plot. Does that make sense?
     
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  6. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks, that makes sense. But I also showed him the script and he said that it was the execution throws logic out the window as well. Perhaps that needs tweaking, but I am not sure if I should hire him or someone else, or anyone at all. I am just trying to make it make sense.
     
  7. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    From what I gather. I wouldn't hire him. For a few reasons;
    1. You make him sound negative. Constructive criticism is not about breaking something down but showing someone how to do it better. Simply saying it doesn't make sense is only half the work.
    2. Probably a dozen of people will help you do that on here for free. (Basic analysis of plot? Yeah I wouldn't mind taking a glance.)
    3. As with anything you're going to need experience to be good. I don't know what your level is but if you story has glaring plot issues it seems likely you have a room for improvement. No sense paying for help when you can just practice more and learn to help yourself.
    4. I think a lot of young writers get impatient and just want to finish now. Paying for help seems like an extension of that.

    Like how long have you been working on it? How much of that time has been writing? How much writing do you have? How many revisions have you done? How many people have seen your work?
     
  8. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I first got the idea in 2011 around and have been developing it since, but did not start writing it till 2012, cause I was busy with other projects then. But I would really like to finish it since I made a goal to pitch it by this year, which I have not done yet of course. I don't mean to make him sound negative. In fact I look up to him. And he has done it for other people and payed considerable big fees for it, so I thought he would know what he is doing more than me for sure. I tried posting a sample of the screenplay on here before, but no one had a look yet. Would you mind going over the 14 page story outline?
     
  9. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    If it makes you feel better. my main story I been developing since 2008. All over this site you will see people that have spent years working on the story. Basic idea to me is this. Timeframe doesn't matter. One good story will last forever while a unfinished story will fade into the slush pile.

    You didn't mention how much writing you have? Also please use word count. Page count doesn't tell me anything.

    If you looking for more precise critic that is what writing workshop is for. I said I would listen to the basic plot to give opinion on if it had plot holes. By that I mean a discussion. Like writing me a PM note explaining context and us going back and forth talking about it.
     
  10. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Well one of the reasons why I want to get mine done sooner, is because I have had actors work under me while I direct movies, and I have a chance to use two really good ones, who liked the original script treatment I gave them. But the longer I keep them waiting, the more interest they loose. I would like to have it be good for audiences of course as well, but one of the actors is almost 60 and he's getting too old for the role, so I want to get it done for him while he's still a good enough age for the character.

    I checked the wordcount and its 5651. Is that okay for you?
     
  11. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    So you work as a director?

    Yes. I can handle that much. Send me a PM on here. Though I admit I am a slow reader. If I don't get back to you in a week give me a reminder.
     
  12. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thank you very much for it! Yes I am an aspiring director.
     
  13. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Nice.

    Me I am a security guard. I work at night in a empty lot too. So I write at work.

    Aspiring Director. Wait what does that mean?
     
  14. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    It means that I have directed one short film so far, as long as helped people as an assistant director on their movies. I wish I could write as I work, but I work in manufacturing in my day job.
     
  15. GuardianWynn

    GuardianWynn Contributor Contributor

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    Oh. So you are doing directing more as a hobby?

    Here is my advice. Free time helps it really does but it isn't the only way to improve as a writing. Take me for example. Two years ago. I would write 400 words(page or 2) and I would be exhausted. Now? I can write 10k in one night. Though doing so will give me a head ache. It isn't the time though that made a difference. It is the practice. Like exercise if you want to be able to write quality in length you need to push your ability to do so. Granted free time makes exercising your writing skill easier but it isn't a requirement to have lots of free time. The requirement is to push your normal amount of writing in one sitting.

    Does that make sense?
     
  16. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    I am directing for practice, and would like this next script to be my debut into making something really serious and ambitious with a much larger budget than before, hopefully if it's good enough. Yes I see what you mean. I should think of like how you do.
     
  17. Shbooblie

    Shbooblie Senior Member

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    Hi just seen this post now. I'll try and help you out in any way I can ( I'm studying forensics at uni) I know a bit about evidence types, analysis and prosecution procedures. Do the police find any evidence other than that belonging to the framed Character? Can you give me a list of what evidence they collect and I'll try and help you make it fit.
     
  18. Lae

    Lae Contributor Contributor

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    i can see a few approaches you could take.

    A: The police (detective or whatever) feel the scene is too convenient, suggestions of "Something doesn't quite feel right here John. We have hair, blood, spit, a footprint, When are we ever this lucky?" Create a sense of actual police work, have the detective or whomever bounce ideas off their partner and become suspicious. If you have a dead body then the police aren't going to dismiss their number one suspect due to TOO MUCH evidence. Have them investigate, even arrest the suspect (if they're free and not with the 'framer', have them question them and then decide to let them go and maybe tail em just to be sure. Can you imagine the uproar if police had all that evidence but didn't properly investigate, and let a potential killer go), get his or her version of events. Go back to the crime scene maybe, find a second unexplainable trace of evidence that doesnt fit the scene maybe.

    B: Have actual evidence prove them innocent, or at least suggest doubt. This could tie into them not being charged, a jury would let them go etc etc. Something like the blood splatter isnt consistent with the way the murder occurred, the blood smears are in the wrong places, the hair that has been pulled during the struggle is on the floor next to the body but no traces are under the nails. Stuff like that. Deliberate actions are easy to identify in most cases.
     
  19. Shbooblie

    Shbooblie Senior Member

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    I agree with Lae. They would be obliged to investigate the framed person as their prime suspect. I'm guessing that the best indication of foul play would be if they found some evidence to suggest that someone else had been at the scene (footprints/hairs/fibres that don't match the suspect). Initially though the only way the framed suspect would get out of custody is if they were bailed, probably conditionally. The suspects "I was framed" alibi would be investigated and the CSIs would look for evidence to support this (as Lae suggested above...inconsistent blood spatter for example). It wouldn't be as simple as just releasing him upon finding contradictory evidence. If it was a real case I doubt it wouldn't make it to court, but you could make it so the defence argument is so strong that the jury find him not guilty.
     
  20. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. You all make very good points. It's just that the script, I feel is already too long. I was hoping to wrap up this section of the plot in two scenes. First scene is the guy planting the evidence of the suspect on the dead body, the second scene is the cops arguing about how he wasn't charged and nothing was done. If I cannot wrap this up in two scenes, I feel that it will become too long. Perhaps a different approach is needed.

    Plus earlier the script the killer goes to court and gets off for a different crime. If I have him go to court and get off twice, wouldn't that come off as repetitive? This is why I want him to not be charged for the second crime, because then it doesn't go to court and it's not as repetitive.

    Well the man who is murdered in my script is friend's with the main cop. The goal of the plot is to have the cop be outraged that his friend is killed and he wants revenge. That is why I wanted to the crook to get off, even though there was evidence planted. However, what if I just wrote it so that he got off cause no one framed him and there wasn't enough evidence to tie him to the killing in the first place. Should I write it like that? Or is it more convincing if there was evidence, and the killer gets off in order to give the cop more convincing outrage?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
  21. Shbooblie

    Shbooblie Senior Member

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    That would perhaps be easier to do. Although the guy would have to be very meticulous so as not to leave any trace of himself at the crime scene. The best way to write it if you wanted to include evidence would maybes be to introduce doubt in the way the forensics team analysed it or perhaps suggest possible contamination (for example the same officer may have transported the suspect and the evidence to the police station in his car). Shoddy forensic work can lose a case so that may be a road to take. The police could know it was the suspect, but he gets off on a technicality perhaps.
     
  22. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    You don't need to take him to court the second time (do you even need to show the courtroom scene the first time?) - just have the cop swearing down the 'phone that "that bastard's got away with it again. Somebody screwed up on the forensics and the guy walked, and now he's just laughing at us!"
     
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  23. wellthatsnice

    wellthatsnice Active Member

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    You answered your own question there. It is not the scene concept that is turning your readers off, it is your explanation for how the cops discovered that the evidence was planted that is causing them to feel that it lacks realism. The things you always need to eventually explain in your mystery writing is who, what, where, why, and how. Right now for this situation you have

    Who - the cops
    What - figured out the evidence was planted and the case is a frame job
    Where - The scene of the crime
    Why - because the cop's jobs are to solve the crime, and they felt that their prime suspect seemed wrong.
    how - ???

    Sadly, the "how" is the most important part of and murder or mystery story...how do i know this? because shows like CSI, CSI Miami, CSI NY, CSI Sibera (you get the idea) are all based on this formula

    What - (this told to the audience in the first 5 mins of the show)
    Where - (this is also told in the first 5 mins of the show)
    Who - (revealed final 3-5 mins of the show, normally the big gotcha moment)
    Why - (revealed final 5-8 minutes of the show, normally comes right before the gotcha and connects the killer to the crime)
    how - (everything that the CSI team does after the first 5 minutes, until the final 5 minutes. So 50 mins of 1 hour of programming is dedicated to discussing and dissecting the "how").

    put the work into your "how" and i assure you that the situation will instantly become much more believable.
     
  24. Ryan Elder

    Ryan Elder Banned

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    Okay thanks. It's just you watch all these crime documentaries, and the cops are so good, that you think that maybe they could tell if evidence was planted by the average joe or not. The villain is the guilty one in my script, it's just he is framed, which is how I planned for him to get away with it. He got off on planted evidence. However, in order to be framed for it, first he is going to have to not leave evidence of his own at the scene to begin with.

    In the story, it's not a meticulously planned murder. Someone finds out too much about the villains crimes, and takes off running. The villain goes after him and kills him top stop him from being a witness. So the murder is actually a spur the moment act of desperation without hardly any time to plan really.

    But some movies like The Town for example, have this. The bank robbers end up having to shoot armored car guards while they rob the armored car. They then drive away, and torch their vehicles. That was enough to get away with murder apparently and it was a spur the moment unplanned killing. The movie Heat also did the same thing with armored car guards. In both stories, the cops did not have enough evidence and they pretty much had to wait for evidence from OTHER crimes to come in, before they were able to make a connection to the murder.
     
  25. bumble bee

    bumble bee Member

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    two thoughts:
    1) as someone has mentioned: main suspect has been convicted of the crime / killed so no-one is bothering to investigate but the MC finds the real guilty party
    2) play around with definitions of guilt e.g. the person who pulled the trigger has been convicted/killed so other cops are satisfied but the MC holds the person who financed the kidnapping responsible. or a variant of that.

    I am a bit bemused at the idea that rape would not be a strong enough motive for revenge but murder would. I think both are violent crimes that would incite strong feelings in victims and their friends/family. I think you want a sense that the crime continues to affect victim/their loved ones while criminal is perceived to have escaped the ongoing consequences.
     
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