The collected musings of Ryan Elder

But Dirty Harry already had a habit of violating rules, right? So for him to violate rules didn't require a lot of elaborate intricate plot elements; it was an in-character series of actions by the character

 

Okay thanks. Is it possible for me to write it so my character goes from an honest cop to breaking the rules as a newcomer to doing so? Or does he have to be a veteran at breaking the rules in order for this type story to work, with no exceptions?

 

But why does he have to manipulate the department? Why are you assuming that normal police work is inherently boring? Hundreds of novels use normal police work. (Or at least the author's idea of normal police work.)

 

Sorry I forgot to use the quote again. It's something I have to get use to. Is it possible for me to write it so my character goes from an honest cop to breaking the rules as a newcomer to doing so? Or does he have to be a veteran at breaking the rules in order for this type story to work, with no exceptions?

I guess the reason why I like these types of stories is because I like stories where the main character has more opponents other than the one main villain. In a lot of my favorite stories, the hero, or antihero, has the villain on one side, and the police as an opponent on the other, and he is caught in the middle. I just think it makes more tension for the hero to more opponents rather than just simply one, where he has all the police help he could get, if that makes sense.

Another thing, is is that since it's set up to be a revenge story with the main character wanting to avenge what happened to him and all, it seems like the revenge is less important if justice takes care of itself. Like the rape of the MC perhaps did not need to be there. If the villain is caught for killing someone else after, and no revenge needs to be taken, the rape of the MC feels gratuitous perhaps, no?

But since the whole first half of the story is set up for revenge for that, the theme might just not be the same, if he is caught by honest means, if that makes sense. Basically the hero wants justice for what happened to him. But if he gets it by normal means, no problem, well then he's fine, and there is no conflict in him reaching his goal.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with that; my issue is when the way that you get there is such an elaborate, character-straining plot.

Your main character, whose profession is upholding the law, breaks the law to frame his boss. This seems unlikely.

He expects to have an opportunity to plant evidence, which seems unlikely.

He makes it to the next murder scene both too late to stop the murder and before the police arrive, which seems unlikely.

He has time to plant evidence before the police arrive, which seems unlikely.

The planted evidence is found, but the fact that it's planted isn't detected, which seems unlikely.

His boss, whose profession is upholding the law, violates the law to do EXACTLY what the main character wants him to do, which seems unlikely.

The officers below his boss, whose professions are upholding the law, ALL agree to violate the law, which seems unlikely.

Edited to add: I forgot: The captain has absolutely no alibi whatsoever for the murder, which is unlikely.

There are just too many unlikelies.

If solving the crime depends on breaking the law, why doesn't your main character do the breaking? Why the elaborate scheme of turning the entire police force into criminals?

 

Okay thanks, that makes sense. Another thing, is is that since it's set up to be a revenge story with the main character wanting to avenge what happened to him and all, it seems like the revenge is less important if justice takes care of itself. Like the rape of the MC perhaps did not need to be there. If the villain is caught for killing someone else after, and no revenge needs to be taken, the rape of the MC feels gratuitous perhaps, no?

But since the whole first half of the story is set up for revenge for that, the theme might just not be the same, if he is caught by honest means, if that makes sense. Basically the hero wants justice for what happened to him. But if he gets it by normal means, no problem, well then he's fine, and there is no conflict in him reaching his goal.

This is why I feel that a revenge story for this type of premise, is better than a story where the police can do their job and catch the crook just fine. Because then the main character being hurt does not seem to matter, if all he has to do, is sit back and wait for the other cops to solve it for him, especially since he would likely be taken off of it, cause he is too personally involved because of what happened to him.

As far as him expecting to have an opportunity to plant evidence, he just thinks maybe it will come up, so I better have the evidence ready when it does. He starts to follow the villain around on his own time, to see if there is anything he can get on him. What happens is, is that the villain goes into a building. As he is following him, he stays behind outside, out of sight, until the villain comes back to his car. He decides to go in to see what he was doing there and sees that another person has been killed, and the villain gets in his car, drives away, and changes tires to get rid of tire mark evidence on the roads. But that's later. First when the protagonist comes across the dead body he failed to save, he sees this as his one opportunity to plant the evidence. He does so and has time before other police arrive, since he was following the villain around to begin with and is right near by, if that makes sense.

My original idea was to have him plant evidence of the villain on the dead body and not evidence of the captain's. You said it's unlikely that the plant will go undetected. But when I discussed my original idea on here, readers said the opposite, and said that it's unlikely that they will be able to tell it was detected to the point where it will be sure. It was in this thread:
https://www.writingforums.org/threads/can-i-make-this-forensic-scenario-convincing.139183/

But that was my original idea. Now I am just thinking of other new ideas to use instead.

 

That has far fewer "unlikelies" than this plan. There are still too many, but fewer.

 

You think the original plan has more unlikelies?

I feel like in my story I need another plot turn or another direction to go in rather than just him nailing the villain no problem and that's it. That will be too short and I need something to propel me into a third act. There has to be something else to go wrong to get there I feel, in order for my story to be long enough.

 

But what he does has to make sense. If he wants to convict Person A, and he plants evidence to convict someone, why would he plant evidence to convict Person B?

 

Well since person B is the captain, he will then escape arrest, tells his subordinates that he was framed by the killer, and convince them to use their police resources to take the killer down, much more aggressively than they were willing to do before, since Cop B's life is on the line. This is what the main character was counting on. And since the villain has been getting on his crimes by using the system to his advantage prior, the cops do not have the hardest time believing it was him who framed the captain since he is a mastermind to them. That was the main character's plan anyway, to get them to take down the villain by abnormal means, since normal means are not working.

 

Why? Do they not care about the series of people being murdered? Were they previously, "Oh. Somebody might get killed? Well, I'm waiting for my lunch, and I've got a case of the sniffles. Maybe I'll have time to do something about that next week."

 

I just had the main character believe that no matter what the police do, the villains will always be five steps ahead, unless he actually puts the captain's life on the line to get him to break the law with everyone else to. He figures he is not going to wait till the killer is caught by accident after how many more people. But I see your point.

I open to coming up with a new last half and I want to, I just feel it would be so much better if the main character had two opponents that he was caught in the middle of and playing them off each other, rather than just the one.

I came up with a possible new last half that might work, once I weed out all the cracks and see if it holds together on all levels. But so far I feel it's much more underwhelming in comparison and the villain is caught too easily. The reader just might not feel challenged enough. But maybe I am wrong. I will weed out the cracks and see if it holds together first.

Another possble ending is this. What if he wants to get the villain and has an idea of how to flush him out and set him up so he can be captured. But for some reason his superiors do not want him to do it, possibly because he is off the case, or something. But since the villain has guns, from previous encounters, he is going to want to armed more heavily. What if he tries to sneak a shotgun out of the police armory, but is caught and then has to flee with it?

This will get the other cops after him perhaps? Or is this also illogical to, as he would find a way to get a gun without having to make it obvious he is taking one without a permissible reason?

 

It seems to me that the following is fractionally more plausible:

- The MC could identify someone who could plausibly get the villain convicted. Maybe a lab tech who could fake results, or someone to falsify the chain of custody for evidence.

- The MC could then blackmail that person into taking that action.

Of course, you need a plausible reason for blackmail, or a plausible reason why that person desperately needs a favor from the MC. It would be necessary to avoid the temptation to make that a new tangle.

 

Okay thanks. Are you saying that the lab technician should report him, and therefore the police will be onto him as well, and thereby becoming an opponent?

I already have a section of my script where the MC blackmails a computer hacking expert, who is a parolee, into doing his dirty work, and hacking into the villains personal records, where he finds a chain of leads. He follows the chain which leads to the next victim being killed, because of his hacking stunt which lead to that. I was thinking of having it so that because of the hacking which lead to a murder, he would be charged with felony murder, and thus having the cops be an opponent. But I was told that by blackmailing and hacking, having it lead to a murder a few days later just by persuing the leads as a result of that, would not count as felony murder.

So if that's true, then that options out I guess... I was also told that the parolee is weak because he counts as a Deux Ex Machina, for having such skills and being in a blackmailing position, all too convenient for the MC.

 

I'm sorry, but this is another part of the plot that is too convoluted. I can't begin to imagine how the hacking would lead to murder, and how that murder would lead to him, and...

The implausibilities are just coming too thick and fast, in multiple clusters.

 

What happens is, is that the MC does not know who the villain is, but he knows another character that might. He blackmails the hacker into hacking that person's information, and then from there, he finds the villain through contact they made. He finds out who the villain is, and follows him around on his own time, gathering what he can on him, and hoping that the villain will do something to give him a new lead or new evidence to go by.

However, the villain realizes he is being stalked by a cop. But he think's it's a different cop from before, let's call him Cop B. This cop B knows too much, from before, and now that the villain thinks that it's him who is monitoring him, goes and kills him, thus making him the victim that was the result, of the initial, blackmailing and hacking, and stalking, which lead to that. Does that make more sense?

 

There's just too much.

 

If there is too much, what should I do? I don't want to have it be so that the main character tries to kill the villain, but fails. The tries to kill him again, the fails. And have this keep going on and on, and have it be the whole story. There has to be other things happening, in order to avoid repetition, so what can I do, if it's too much? Plus this section of the plot only takes a few pages, so is it really too much?

 

Sorry forgot to quote again:

If there is too much, what should I do? I don't want to have it be so that the main character tries to kill the villain, but fails. The tries to kill him again, the fails. And have this keep going on and on, and have it be the whole story. There has to be other things happening, in order to avoid repetition, so what can I do, if it's too much? Plus this section of the plot only takes a few pages, so is it really too much?

 

I think you're trying too hard, @Ryan Elder . You're creating a complicated puzzle, which might work if it WERE a puzzle in a game like Cluedo. But as @ChickenFreak so ably pointed out, you're creating far too many unlikely scenarios to be believable as a piece of realistic fiction. This has gone off the scale in terms of what would happen in real life.

What is the central point of this story? Can you condense it into one sentence?

Once you know what you're actually writing about, then you can go about simplifying it. If it's personal revenge against this criminal whom the police can't catch, why not go the more normal route (which has been done before, but plausibly enough) of having your MC track the criminal down himself? Off hours, if necessary. Perhaps him going off-hours can get him into bother with his boss, if it's a double-antagonist you're looking for. (Think "The Mentalist".) Then, of course, when he actually knows who the criminal is, he can set up a situation so the police DO catch the guy. Maybe the result of the sub-plot is that he is able to convince his boss of who the criminal is, in time to get the police onside for the takedown.

Anyway, I think you need to step back a bit, and think how this could be done without overcomplicating things to the extent that they become totally unbelievable, and require multiple stupid actions from multiple characters in order to achieve the goal.

In order to do this, you really need to focus on the core of your story. What do you want your main character to learn about himself?

 

Okay thanks. Yes it's a script. When you say take the standard vigilante action, what do you mean exactly? Go out and kill the villain and that's it? If I wrote it that way, then the script will only take about 60 minutes though, where as for a feature length script, I need at least 90 minutes of story though.

The point of the story I want to achieve is that the protagonist realize that violence begets violence and revenge just leads to bad things, especially when he selfishly manipulates the police into going up against the villain, which leads to some deaths and other consequences, in order for the protagonist to realize that.

But in order to get there, so far every scenario I have come up with has a to have a lot going on, just to get all the key characters, in one place at one time. I can't just simply have the protagonist call everyone and give an excuse to meet in a certain place. The characters will not logically do that. They have different motivations that have to come out in order to get them there, if that makes sense.

Also, since this is set in modern times, mostly because I am writing for very low budget, the script has to work within the current legal system when it comes to setting up plausible scenarios for things like felony murder, or other legal ramifications to take place. The legal system is incredibly complicated, especially when it comes to legal politics, and forensics, so trying to keep it simple, I find to be easier said then done in the modern legal police world.

I keep trying to figure out simple scenarios in order to get the ending I want but it seems that in order to get everyone in the same place at the same time for it to happen, it's not so simple, and some sort of series of events has to happen in order to motivate everyone in each of their different ways.

Also I find it difficult for a reason to write a story where the main character goes after the villain himself and that's it. I wrote an early draft of the script months ago, and sent it in for review from readers. But one of the things they said that didn't make sense is why the main character is working by himself. A cop will always call for back up or work with others to avoid being in danger, and it makes no sense why he never calls or relies on anyone else, even for revenge, he would still call if in danger. So I haven't been able to come up with a reason for why he is to work alone, for the whole story pretty much. I will keep thinking and try to keep as simple as possible.

Perhaps the reason why I cannot get to the ending I want is because it's an impossible ending.

 

Okay thanks. I am surprised people are saying I want too much since I thought my script actually had less plot compared to movies I take inspiration from. As for The Terminator and The Matrix as examples, those movies were very heavy on action, where as I am writing something much lower budget. So I felt it was best to have more plot, to make up for the lack of action, if that makes sense. But if it's too much, it's too much. The part where you say 'try one last time' is part of the formula. That's the part where I wanted the MC to manipulate the captain into doing something about it. If I cannot make that work, then I will try to find a different 'try one last time'. I would like it to involve the captain as an opponent if possible though, since he has been a thematic opponent to this point.

However, other readers are telling me that planting evidence of the captain works because the hero is very angry with the captain since he did not take the rape seriously. He plants the evidence out of a huge disdain towards him, rather than logic. Do you think that's true about what they say, or does it still not work, disdain or not?