If there were a pill to make me straight, I would not take it

Thank you so much for your excellent thread, @A.M.P. One of my dearest wishes is that the day will come soon (maybe even during my lifetime or certainly during the lifetime of the generation following me) when the issue of gender/sexuality simply doesn't arise, except in the context of finding suitable partners. I am heterosexual, so I would want a straight man as a mate, and would not want a gay woman as one. I wouldn't want to waste time hoping to become the lover of some attractive guy who is actually gay, so, in that context, I would want to know his orientation fairly soon after meeting him. But once that question is answered (on the same plane as 'are you married, by the way?') then that's the issue dealt with.

Gender orientation does not matter in ANY other context!

It breaks my heart to think of the generations and generations of people who lived a lie (or tried to live a lie) in order to protect themselves from persecution and rejection. I find it worth noting how large a percentage of people in our present culture are gay, and now being very open about the fact. I assume that's the percentage of people who have always been gay, but hid it, back in the bad old days. How awful. Living a lie is stressful, no matter what the lie may be.

 

While we're sharing badges of honor, I sometimes cuddle with my lesbian friend when we hang out. She's a cuddly person, and if we end up drinking it's only natural we end up sleeping in the same bed. It's a beautiful kind of cuddling. It's a female body I'm cuddling with so it feels on some level like, oh hey, I'm sleepin' with a girl. But since I know she's really, really not into guys, it has this special effect to it. Hard to put it into words but I always feel special. Like, how women can be all cuddly with each other but be straight. Like, I get to be a girl. Or, a guy. Or a girl guy. Or, she's a guy. Or, she's a girl and I'm a guy, but like. Or. Okay, whatever, it's just nice, and it's a thing, or not, or whatever.

 

I wouldn't take the pill either. While I identify as straight, I don't see sexuality as some sort of 'either' 'or' 'or something else' kind of thing. I call myself straight, but I'm not 100% straight, and I know it. I've had sex with other men, and I don't think the term 'bisexual' applies to me.

I'm not sure I'd tell everyone I've had sexual relationships with men before, and it's not just the fact that it wouldn't be very many people's business. It's also the fact that I'd be scared to tell some people, even some people I consider friends, because they might stop being my friend, and instead might want to kick my ass for it - for whatever reason. You guys who have 'came out' to people like that, and are very open about it - fuck, you are braver than I am. Believe me. You get a lot of respect from me.

 

Yeah you should - but I'm so glad that happened.

 

There's an upside to it. Silver lining and all that. It serves as a filter for certain varieties of tossers, wankers, assholes, and other assorted individuals in whom one may not wish to invest time and effort. Now, not all of these people are the aforementioned negative labels to other people because we are all different people to different people. Every relationship between two individuals is unique. But if someone is going to cold-shoulder me for being gay, much better to find out from the get-go than invest time and effort and emotion in making friends. There are people enough in the world who don't use that as a meter by which to measure and I would rather spend my time on them.

 

I really hope in the coming years not just the LG in the wide umbrella of LGBTQ/asexuals gets the rise of attention it needs in all media forms. Focusing on homosexuality is a great start! But what about those with bisexuality? Who are often misunderstood by both straight and queer folk. Having almost no sense of community, ive seen what that does to a youth up close and personal with someone I love dearly. They were at the point where they would have taken the pill, or heck even a pill to make them gay, anything to make them feel like they have a home and that they weren't hurting those they loved. And what about trans folk, who debatably have the most difficulty finding out who they are in their early years? They suffer from dysphoria when they dont even know what's different about them or why they're different to begin with. There's so many different identities out there and when the standard hero is a cis white male... It leaves so many voices lost. I'm hoping all creators start stepping up to portray characters in a realistic, and INFORMED way to give those lost some hope.

 

I wish I could think that you were making that up

 

I actually think trans folk are getting more recognition media-wise than bi- folk right now. Laverne Cox got like, woman of the year on Time magazine or something. And a black trans woman, which is another layer to consider. Lana Wachowski, co-director of The Matrix and Cloud Atlas, won the Visibility Award by some human rights group a couple years ago and gave a speech about making her transition. It's a beautiful speech... where is it... oh thanks YouTube (starts around 6:30):



And now Jamie Clayton, another actually trans woman(opposed to cisgender person pretending, which offends a lot of trans folk, see blogosphere) is playing an actually trans woman in the Netflix show Sense8 -- also co-directed by Lana Wachowski! So there's a huge visibility moment for trans folk that I'm witnessing, but it could just be because I'm paying attention and am excited because I get excited about marginalized identities getting recognition for whatever reason.

Bi folk on the other hand, I can't think of many. Guy in the Doctor Who series, the really pretty one who... no spoilers. Bi in the show, bi in real life. But his bi-ness was framed almost as a joke. As if he was just hypersexual and wanted to have sex with EVERYBODY. Sexual orientation is sometimes framed as a personality trait.

One sucky thing about being bi is that people often don't believe you. "If you're bi, why haven't I ever seen you with a such-and-such gender person?" is what people say. That sucks.

But I have a housemate who claims to be bi, and I actually don't believe him. Not because I'm mean (okay maybe I'm mean?), but because of how he told me. I confronted him about his homophobic language one night, which was really hard for me because he's a bit alpha. He didn't hold himself accountable AT ALL. Instead, he claimed that he was actually bisexual and that his ex-girlfriend broke up with him shortly after he revealed this secret to her. As much as I wanted to sympathize with him, it seemed more like he was making up this story of self-victimization to justify a shitty habit of language. He invalidated my concern and flipped shit around on me as if I was oppressing him and being petty. Meanwhile, my queer friends don't like being around him. What's probable is he's actually bisexual and a difficult human being to deal with, but he's subtly manipulative enough to where it's hard for me to believe him.

 

One thing touched upon by AMP that I don't think is always understood is the lying. The tedious, tiresome, complicated, draining net of lies gay people are often forced to create. And worse, how this constantly practiced skill can make us the kinds of liars that aren't in the least bit afraid of lie detector machines. Pfft. Bring it and watch me make a joke out if it. That's not actually a nice thing to know about yourself.

The active lies:

(To the family)

"Hey everyone. I want you to meet my girlfriend, Melanie."

The passive lies:

"Girlfriend? Dude, I am so bogged down with schoolwork right now. Don't even talk to me about that shit"

The lies of omission:

(this is inner thought only, not dialogue)

"So, Scott, you know your friend, Mark? Your pal since kindergarten. The man's man and the guy you jokingly call "Mark the Minj-Slayer". Yeah... We've been dating for the past year and a half behind your back. So if you're wondering why he seems to have less time to go hunting with you, that's why. Not a minj-slayer, but dynamite in the sack nonetheless."

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It's the hamburger from McDonalds that you don't partially unwrap for your boyfriend to make it easier for him since he's driving because there are other people in the car. It's the little thing you don't buy him at the store that you know he would love because others are around. It's a million things you don't do and don't say and don't look at that everyone else is perfectly free to do and and say and look at. It's all that.

And I have a pet theory that at least some of the time, someone's negative reaction to finding out that I'm gay has less to do with the gay and more to do with the lies and subterfuge and deceit, all of which are abjectly negative and yet are the very things that those who would stand in the way of our rights say we are always free to do so we're not special enough to be taken into account in the wording of the law.

"You're not a real group and you don't deserve to be considered by the law because you can always just lie about it."

How's that for fucked up?

Lie about it.... Like that's an answer.

 

Wonderful post Wrey, sending ehugs over to you.

 

I can relate to some of this. I'm attracted to both genders emotionally, but the instinctive physical reactions are so skewed towards women that it's hard for me to use the term "bisexual" with a straight face. It's there, and it made middle school really scary, but it feels more like an addon to heterosexuality than a different basic configuration.

I don't know. Plenty of people break gender norms, which suggests that masculine and feminine behavior patterns are somewhat fluid (they are), but most of those individuals still don't experience actual bodily dysphoria. I don't view my status as a male as something that determines how I should behave, but I don't feel bad about it either. It just isn't an important moral attribute to me.

Many heterosexuals react better to attractive members of their own gender than average ones, and I think that might mean something, but it seems more like a technicality than anything else. I might be wrong, though, at least as far as women are concerned.

 

Most of the LGBTQ/gender studies material I've seen online--admittedly very little--is rubbish. Can anyone suggest a good starting point for an academic, medium-depth dive into the subject?

 

The good news is that for just about any question, there is a thesis or dissertation out there. And hopefully a good number of journal articles.

If there are any universities or community colleges in your area, start there. Many school libraries offer community passes/library cards. It also has the benefit of being a library dedicated to academic topics and writing. The reference librarians will be highly knowledgeable and are generally willing to help with research request.

The down side is that if you are not a student/faculty/staff then you may not be able to make ILL request through their system. This is where your public library will come in handy. If you can get a complete citation for the item you want from the university library and possibly a couple of options for collections that may house the item, that can be handed off to your local public library who can put in an ILL request.

I'm fortunate that my local librarians are willing to move heaven and earth to get me the items I want. I've gotten dictionaries of dead languages from UCLA, maps from the Colorado School of Mines, and today I picked up a cookbook that came from the Library of Congress. There may be charges for items, but they are generally nominal. ($21 for the dictionary, $40 for the Maps, the cookbook was free, but I'm only allowed to use it in the building.)

Good Luck with your research!

 

So no suggestions?

 

I don't understand the problem. People are attracted to who they are attracted to. It's called biology. Gay or straight, I can't imagine wanting to change such an integral part of oneself just to be accepted by other people.

 

Research does not occur without effort. If you are unwilling to put forth the effort, do not expect others to do it for you.
You were given good information on how to begin your research as well as tips for making your search more effective.

 

I LOVE THIS!
Made me cry.

 

You seem really smart, and I appreciate the information. I was more interested in starting a conversation, I think.

 

I dunno, people change their hair, dumb themselves down, take on certain stances just to match their social group.
If you could change sexuality, think it'd be a similar thing.

 

I don't think hair and getting along with people at the moment is the same as changing something as fundamental as sexual orientation.

I don't bring up my atheism in many social groups, I can understand a lot of what @Wreybies wrote about disguising one's partner's gender if it doesn't need to be said, and I think that would be harder than just not discussing certain subjects.

I'm not trying to demean how hard it must be to be gay when people are saying things like they think it's disgusting. That would suck big time. But maybe now that will happen less often.

 

I was just thinking about what Wrey said about lies of omission in post #35 above. In my experience, there's also fear. For example:

I went to a baseball game in Toronto with my Dad once, shortly after I came out to my family. In the row of seats in front of us was a family that had three boys, the oldest about 12. They were cute as hell and having a fantastic time, cheering every time the Blue Jays got a hit, high-fiving each other, laughing and carrying on like kids do. At one point, my Dad leaned over to me and said, "Good-looking boys, aren't they?"

And I froze solid.

Dad could say that because he was straight. I agreed with him - they were good-looking boys - but I could not say so out loud because I was gay. If a gay guy says a boy is good-looking, everyone assumes he's a child molester. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I couldn't say out loud that I thought these boys were attractive in any way simply because it would be taken the wrong way.

That hurts. Even though everyone I know accepts me as gay, I still feel constrained over what I'm allowed to say in certain circumstances. I'm keenly aware of what I'm looking at - if my eyes linger in the wrong direction (where a boy might be, for instance), I'm scared that someone will call the police. "What did the perpetrator do, ma'am?" "He looked in that direction!" "Sir, you're under arrest." "For what?" "For looking over there - according to this witness, a boy rode a bicycle past that spot for two seconds, and we can't take any chances with the likes of you."

Argh.

 

I only would be concerned if you carry a large amount of candy in your pockets.

 

Now worries there, then. He keeps his candy in his van.

 

I don't know. If someone lived in a country where being homosexual could put them to death or in prison and they'd have to be in a loveless sham marriage with someone of the opposite gender to stay closeted, I don't think I can judge them if they choose to take that pill. Obviously, no one should have to, but I remember not too long ago how some people argued that being gay wasn't a choice because who would choose to get threatened, ostracized, and potentially killed? Luckily, I think we're evolving as a society so that being LGBT isn't being thought of as "wrong" anymore.

And this is slightly off-topic, but there was a scenario in the X-Men (arguably, a gay allegory) where a shot could supposedly suppress your mutant powers. Some mutants wanted to take it, others refused and were proud of who they were despite the danger.