Would you do this? (beta reader)

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by JosephMarch, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    Eh? What does "idealizing things too much" or any of the above have to do with what I said?
     
  2. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    10,216
    Location:
    London, UK
    Yeah but that's what it says to a lot of people in this thread - "I don't trust you to give an honest opinion". YOU might not be offended by that (I'm not sure I would either, since I've had friends read my stuff and I know the dilemma) but it's rude to say people are oversensitive if THEY care.
     
  3. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    I understand if one is offended by a friend using that strategy on oneself. What I, however, do not understand, is that overly dramatical "ending the friendship" because of petty s...t like that. Seriously. That's what rang my bells.

    To sum it up and not get any more off the topic: I disagree with the overall reaction of ending the friendship but I don't judge anyone for feeing a certain, negative way about being lied to (even in a rather trivial matter as such is)
     
    Tenderiser likes this.
  4. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    10,216
    Location:
    London, UK
    That makes sense. :) It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, either.
     
  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    I value my privacy.

    Someone who lies to me in order to trick me into revealing private thoughts that I might not have revealed if I were fully informed is someone who does not respect my privacy.

    Someone who does not respect my privacy is not going to be in my circle of friends.
     
  6. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    It's a white-handed crime. OP sincerely wishes to get the honest opinion of his friend and obviously really cares about that person's opinion. On the other hand? In OP's position you don't mean to get your friend into an uncomfortable position ("It was shit", "oh... I wrote it by the way"). The intention isn't bad. It's just not the best way to really get to where you want to.

    This stunt has been pulled on me before by the way. In that particular situation I just felt that this friend of mine was just too insecure about that piece to admit that it was his own.
    It's a trick and it's not half as mean as you put it. Go ahead and hate me for it but even though I understand that you dislike this sort of thing you're still overly sensitive to me if you end a friendship because of something like that.

    People are not just civilised meat bags with an etiquette. We are all human and we make mistakes. If you can't forgive something as petty as this I don't know how you live your life man. Whenever I got really close with some friends at some point something happened and either me or them did something not so nice. We forgave each other and some of those are my best friends. If I were to judge actions like you claim to do, I would be left with but a few people, apart from family, who will most likely never get close enough to me to wrong me.

    Ok. To end this debate from my side on: You do you and I do me. I will never understand people who can't forgive their friends for their imperfections (yes, that includes their actions). If me and my surroundings were that pedantic we'd all be living apart because everyone has wronged everyone at some point. But to each his/her own.

    Ippo
     
  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I like to be able to trust my friends. It's that simple.

    And the whole "you do you" thing is generally most effective when you don't combine it with insults directed at the person who's "doing" him or herself.
     
    ChickenFreak likes this.
  8. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    "I like to be able to trust my friends" - this is that exact pedantic attitude that I'm talking about. If you cut off a friend because you can't trust this person anymore after doing something like that then I wonder what you were doing with that person in the first place.
    You do you and I do me was meant like: "Heck, I can't change the way you think so you might as well believe whatever you like."

    No, if I find something ridiculous to a certain extent I will say it and if you feel personally offended you can rest assured that it wasn't in my intentions.

    And no man, it's not "that simple". Don't you have a sense of scale? Geez. Next time I tell my girlfriend a white lie so she doesn't unnecessarily worry about me she might as well break up because I bet she'd prefer having a boyfriend she can trust. Sheesh.
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    ...what? You mean, what was I doing, in this scenario, being friends with an untrustworthy person? Obviously, I didn't know that they were an untrustworthy person. When I know, we won't be friends any more.

    Oh, we might encounter each other at the homes of mutual friends, and I might be perfectly nice to them, but we're not friends. I won't share anything with them that I wouldn't share with a stranger, because I don't trust them any more.

    If we were casual friends, we'd be done. If we were good, old friends, I might tell them what they've done wrong, and the quality of their apology and their subsequent behavior might allow us to be friends again someday. Maybe.

    That depends on what those white lies are about. They may very well be a big problem, yeah.
     
  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    What happened to "to end this debate from my side on?"

    I honestly can't think of a situation in which I wouldn't be upset by someone deliberately lying to me. You tell lies to your girlfriend so she won't worry about you? How about changing your behaviour so she doesn't worry about you? Or being honest with her about what you're doing, and then she can decide for herself whether to worry or not?

    Lying is disrespectful. You do you, of course, but... yeah. I think less of you because you're a liar. ETA: - to clarify, it's not like I had some great respect for you and now you've shattered it. I had no idea who you were before, and now all I know is that you think it's okay to lie to people you care about. So the only thing I know about you is a negative.
     
    ChickenFreak likes this.
  11. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    "What happened to "to end this debate from my side on?"" Your post, which was directed at me.

    "How about changing your behaviour so she doesn't worry about you? Or being honest with her about what you're doing, and then she can decide for herself whether to worry or not?" This really made the level of conversation kneel into the dirt. Think before you write. If your point is to prove me wrong then you do not have a point.
    Why did this bring down the niveau in my eyes? - Say I have an unavoidable, dangerous situation to face (and in fact I did) and my girlfriend is worried sick. Now, since the nature of this situation is unavoidable, all I have left to do is calm her and maker her feel as safe as possible. I might be sh*t scared but if she asks how I feel I'll say "all is good". Was it a lie? Yes. Was it bad? You tell me now.
    Not every bad action is worth the same reaction.
    If what the two of you say is true, then I should stop being friends with someone because they have interrupted my speech once and that is clearly a sign of disrespect for my person.
    Scale. It's about s_c_a_l_e.

    In a perfect world there are no lies and there's also no need to lie. This is not a perfect world and we are not perfect people. That is why we have our hearts to make things right. We might go wrong here and there and we better not but even if we do there is such thing as forgiveness or understanding.
    But hey, you guys go and have fun with your perfect friends and significant others who never once lied to you and never will.

    "I had no idea who you were before, and now all I know is that you think it's okay to lie to people you care about. " No, no you still don't know me. And yet you dare judge me. Taking bits of opinions out of context and throwing them at me is cheap. I expected more of someone above the age of 15.
    Since you clearly took this onto a personal level I'm out of this. I don't have any interest in defending myself against empty claims or phony attacks (sarcastically asking why I keep up the conversation when you clearly challenged my opinion)
    If you have any personal issue with me you are sincerely, I mean that, invited to tell me about it in a private message after you have calmed your temper. I think of myself as understanding so I would listen to you. This is not the right place for this though.

    So long
    Ippo
     
  12. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I'd like to believe you that the situation with your girlfriend was unavoidable, but I can't, because maybe you're lying. Do you see the problems you create when you cheapen your words?

    And in terms of perfect worlds and there being no need to lie - are you suggesting that the OP needs to lie about who wrote his MS? I think we may be looking at different understandings of the word "need".

    And in terms of me daring to judge you - honestly, I don't think it takes much daring - you're just a blip on the internet. It's not like it requires courage to think less of an internet blip. But, seriously, have you read what you wrote? All the stuff about people being pedantic and overly sensitive isn't you insulting anyone, but me saying that you're a liar (which you admit you are) IS insulting. If lies aren't that bad, then being a liar isn't bad, right? So why are you feeling insulted?

    I think English isn't your first language, so maybe there's a communication issue, but I'm not quite sure where it would be.
     
  13. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    I don't even know why I'm going down to this but okay. Let's have one last tango.

    I'd like to think that the argument you just made was a joke, but I can't, because maybe you're serious lol.
    Also, I haven't done anything to give you the right to call me a liar. If you still, unreasonably want to keep calling me that then feel free to wallow in the mud as much as you like.
    I've never once said that it's good to lie. What I said was that it's good to forgive. We're basically having all this because you think people who have told any kind of a lie or did any kind of bad thing should not be forgiven, regardless of the size of their mistake.

    I'm not advocating the original poster to go down that road. Actually, if you go back a page you'll find that I advised him to do otherwise.
    Also I'm pretty sure I never said that an imperfect world requires us to lie. Your second argument is not a logical or truthful argument either. What are you even trying to do? Did you read what I wrote before or did you just skim real quick to write this "devastating" answer? :confused:

    When you act inappropriately or without integrity in your words then it doesn't matter who I am. If you lower your level and throw with mud it's you who gets dirty, regardless of whether you throw it on a "blip on the internet" or on your neighbour. Do you understand that?

    So to set things straight: Me saying people are pedantic if they overly dramatise minor human mistakes is you saying that I am a liar. Excuse me, how does that make any sense? Have you read what I wrote? :confused: :D

    I don't remember saying I was a liar or more of a liar than you or anyone else, either.


    And why do you think so?
    My written and spoken English is better than some native speakers' careless attempt at it. What is it? Did I misuse an idiom or not set the perfect punctuation? Can you try and be more pedantic than that? o_O
    Subtext of the day: "Your English is so bad that I can tell that you are not a native speaker. Your English is actually THAT bad that you can't understand what I'm saying. Also you're too stupid to understand how I am right and you are wrong."
    And then you ask me why I feel insulted.
    When I called chickenfreak pedantic I at least had the "balls"/guts to do it directly and not in some stupid ass implication. Your rudeness is unbelievable. :meh:

    My "dear" Bayview, you win an argument by verbally weighing your arguments against your opposite's arguments, not by skipping that part and directly trying to attack your opposite.
    If any part of your post were sincere and not just an effort to "win", I might have replied differently but all you're trying to do is to push yourself up by attempting to push me down.



    So long
    Ippo

    ps next time just send a private message because this off-topic chatter has spammed the entire second page of this thread.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    A liar is someone who lies. That's all. You lie sometimes. So... you're a liar. Right? I don't really understand where this is an insult rather than a label.

    How do you parse it? "A liar is someone who lies. I lie, but... I'm not a liar. Because... you're mean!"

    To come at it from a slightly different direction - If you're insulted by being called a liar, doesn't that suggest that you think lying is a less-than-admirable character attribute? So how do you reconcile that with your claim that you did the right thing when you lied to your girlfriend?

    (This is why I'm wondering about the native English thing. Maybe there's a translation issue, something that is getting in the way of you understanding the connection between "liar" and "one who lies"? I don't know.)

    Maybe I misunderstood. When you said, "Was it a lie? Yes. Was it bad? You tell me now." I assumed you meant it wasn't bad. But maybe you meant it was a mistake? But then I'm confused about why you would include an anecdote that doesn't really support your argument.

    Well, not really. I mean, if you're getting as technical as saying that you weren't defending the idea of lying with your whole "doing something dangerous and didn't want to scare girlfriend" story, then let's be technical about what I said, too. I don't think I mentioned forgiveness one way or another, did I? I just said I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who lied to me.

    To some extent I think it's a utilitarian argument. One of the major things I'm looking for in a friendship is someone who will be honest and open with me. So if they can't or won't do that, then... they're not good for me as friends, and I don't want to waste my time. It's not really a question of forgiving or not forgiving, it's just... not a useful relationship.

    So, maybe we can summarize this as:

    We agree the OP shouldn't lie to his friend.

    We disagree about whether it's pedantic to end a friendship over a minor but deliberate untruth.

    We disagree about whether people who tell lies should be classified as liars.

    Does that cover it?
     
    Ippo likes this.
  15. Ippo

    Ippo Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    22
    I'm positively surprised by your reply, it was very mature.
    To give you an answer on the whole "label" deal: If everyone who lies or has lied before is a liar then you are, I bet my last shirt on it, too. So why bother calling me a liar when most of us are anyways? That is degrading. "We all have told a couple of lies in our lives but I'll call you, specifically, a liar"
    A liar, to me, is someone who will use lies at any given moment to his convenience. Not everyone who has told a lie before is a liar to me because then the word would be superfluous since it would cover 95% of people anyways. What separates a liar from an ordinary person is the ease and the frequence with which he will use his lies over and over again.

    As to the story: No, I am not defending lying. What I am doing is showcasing how not every lie is as bad as the other. It's really about scale.

    "Maybe I misunderstood. When you said, "Was it a lie? Yes. Was it bad? You tell me now." I assumed you meant it wasn't bad. But maybe you meant it was a mistake? But then I'm confused about why you would include an anecdote that doesn't really support your argument."

    It does support my argument: It's all relative. Not every bad act is equal in magnitude.
    Judging from your reaction to that story you think I should have confessed my fear of that situation and made my girlfriend worry instead of having the same situation except for a more sound girlfriend? So this, too, was bad to you simply because it did not depict the factual truth? Like the mother who gives her child the last piece of bread and claims that she herself is not hungry? "What a liar!"? Is that what you are saying? :confused:

    "To come at it from a slightly different direction - If you're insulted by being called a liar, doesn't that suggest that you think lying is a less-than-admirable character attribute? So how do you reconcile that with your claim that you did the right thing when you lied to your girlfriend?"
    Yes, I think lying is a very bad thing to do.
    How do I reconcile that with my claim that I did right when I "lied" to my girlfriend? Geez: "Like the mother who gives her child the last piece of bread and claims that she herself is not hungry? "What a liar!"? Is that what you are saying?" (What I just said)
    I mean we can't just rip things out of context or make everything black and white so you have to decide what's it gonna be. Call it by the name, do you think that every lie ever is bad even those that are of selfless and altruistic nature?

    My last question would be why you assumed that I would not be a native speaker.

    That would be it from my side

    Ippo
     
  16. Krishan

    Krishan Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2012
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    37
    This strikes me as an odd and manipulative thing to do. I would not appreciate being "tricked" into reading something, and it strikes me that it would take much more effort to realise the lie than it would to simply ask your friend to be as honest as they wish about your writing.
     
  17. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    1,647
    Location:
    [unspecified]
    Get Calibre e-book Management (just Google that phrase). It's free and will convert from Word (doc, xdoc or rtf) to epub or just about any other ebook format. Easy-peasey. I use it when handing stuff off to my wife for proofreading. I prefer PDF for getting feedback, but for just plain reading, epub works well.
     
  18. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    1,647
    Location:
    [unspecified]
    Although I agree with you on one level, it's often easier for someone to be honest (if the novel needs work) when they know they won't be hurting the author's feelings.

    @OP: But, another way to go would be to own up to having written it and see how long it takes for the reader to give feedback. I would think that a rule of thumb would be: if the person is an avid reader, the longer it takes, the more work the novel needs.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice