Let Off Steam About The Author-Agent Power Dynamic

Discussion in 'Agent Discussion' started by Tenderiser, Apr 24, 2016.

  1. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    No, I wasn't talking about him. I'm saying I've heard other editors and agents say it. I think Gerke would disagree. If it's the agent I'm thinking of, she's pretty successful and well known, but I don't want to put words in people's mouths and I can't find a link. I think she said it in a speech I heard, and it wasn't the first time. But like I said it doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of deciding to have a prologue.
     
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  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, saying books with prologues tend to be crap is my personal opinion. Saying these books are exceptions to that is just explaining why I don't find your list of examples to be anything that shakes my belief in my original personal opinion.

    I guess the lack of clarity may come from the word "books". When I say that, I mean all novel-length attempts at fiction, whether published or not. So, unlike many, I don't think most published books are crap. But I do think most novel-length attempts at fiction are crap, and I think there's a higher likelihood of a novel-attempt being crap if it has a prologue.

    [Note: I also think there's a higher likelihood of novel-attempts being crap if they're written by teenagers. Showing me a list of bestsellers written by teenagers isn't going to erase my memory of all the truly terrible novel-attempts I've read that were written by teenagers. It's absolutely possible for a teenager to write an excellent novel-attempt, just like it's absolutely possible, in my opinion, for an excellent novel-attempt to have a prologue. It's just less likely.]
     
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  3. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Here's something ...
    Rowling was rejected approx 25 times. According to some sources, the first chapter of her first HP book, is set ten years before chapter two, and is therefore a prologue. Could this be the reason she was rejected? And haha! She's a bestseller a million times over. Do you honestly think readers are really that bothered about prologues???
     
  4. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Absolutely! But I don't agree with an agent throwing out an ms based on opening page one and finding the word 'prologue' as it has been suggested that that's what they do. They could have a fabulous best seller on their hands, if they could persuade the author to ditch a prologue or turn the prologue into chapter one, but they'll never know because they read one word and throw the ms in the bin.
     
  5. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    How can you actually chart that? (Not you personally)
     
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  6. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I'm never going to see a full length novel attempt (except my own) so I can't make comment on un-published stuff.
     
  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    But--the first book in the series, as published, DOESN'T have a prologue, or a first chapter that functions in a prologue-y way. So what are you saying? I don't think anyone on this thread has claimed that readers are bothered by books that, in an earlier draft, may or may not have had first chapters that were prologue-y.

    Actually, I'd say this anecdote, if true, would be an argument AGAINST prologues, wouldn't it? She had an early draft with a prologue, got rid of it, and went on to sell all the books in the universe. I've had first drafts where I spelled my main character's name three different ways. Then I FIXED THAT, just like Rowling fixed her draft. Allegedly.
     
  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    The only thing that makes me decide whether to have a prologue or not is if the story warrants it. If it does warrant it, I'll be putting it in there.

    It's up to readers to decide that my prologue is probably crap because it is a prologue and prologues are crap. I'm through banging my head against that particular wall. I'm not going for an agent anyway, so it doesn't matter.

    Just for the record, I have not had a single beta (several are from this forum) read my prologue and object to it in any way. They say it makes them want to read the story, which was my intention. And guess what? It's actually the longest chapter in my book. How's that for breaking rules?

    I'm done here.
     
  9. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    @Steerpike - How do you feel about the first chapter of a book being set sometime in the past that establishes important information if that's just called chapter 1? How do you feel about any first chapter that is in any different place or time to the rest of the narrative? How about those first chapters in thousands of mystery novels that shows the crime being committed from the POV of the criminal or victim not the main character? Do you (or would you) skip over these too?

    Do you just not like stories introduced this way? Even when very well written and using that blind intro to set up tension or steaks or mystery? Do you feel angry to find out that such a passage you just read in good faith labled as chapter 1 is, in fact, just a prologue by another name and thus you should have skipped it? Or are you just reacting to the word prologue?

    If you just hate that form of story telling then I can understand that; it's a matter of taste. But you make it sound like your objection is simply to seeing the word prologue over the top, not the actual content of the prologue. And that's something that I just don't know how to react to, especially when you aren't even saying that a prologue stops you buying or reading a book with a prologue.

    More in general -

    The idea that something is bad because it's labeled as a prologue makes no sense. The factors that contribute to it being called a prologue have no connection to the factors that determine the quality of the story. And you seem to know that because you'll read the rest of the story. But why skip the prologue then? It's really strange to give a book the benefit of the doubt and go on reading even when it's not immediately to your preferences but totally deny the benefit of the doubt to the prologue itself. Just by reading a book (instead of stopping) you are saying you trust the author to know what they're doing; to not just waste your time with utterly irrelevant extraneous crap. So how can anyone justify jumping over one specifically labeled part of the book for being utterly irrelevant and extraneous?

    People can be irrational and follow what they feel not what is logical and that's totally fine if that's what you're doing but at least we need to be honest when we are doing that. Everyone is entitled to feel however they want; to have their own tastes and preferences.

    It's fine to say 'I don't like it so I won't read it'; it's rather different to say 'I don't like it therefor it is objectively bad.'

    It's really weird to me to see people saying their emotional response to something is totally rational and logical and objectively correct while my logical argument is only drive by emotion.

    The only counter-example needed here is that we know there are good books with prologues. Therefor prologues cannot be objectively bad.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
  10. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    We may also be seeing these things because the authors writing them (and selling them to publishers) are well-known enough to get away with it. If Stephen King, Michael Connolly or JK Rowling writes a prologue, no publisher is going to turn down the MS because of a prologue... or any of the other no-no's we might think we have to live by.
     
  11. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    And even if they are, the restrictions often allow a writer to focus all the harder on what she/he does feel he/she can write about and that ends up being better work in a lot of cases.
     
  12. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    At the risk of irritating you (or prompting you to reach for the ketchup [because hats need that kind of help]) perhaps the very fact that your novel can't be pigeonholed will be the one feature of your writing that gets you an agent and a publisher. I know history isn't on your side with this, especially recent history, but you never know.

    Just saying.
     
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  13. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    I can understand that. Me? I'm a total coward. Even though I've always wanted to write science fiction, I didn't have a science in my pocket. But rather than go out on that non-genre limb, I chose to play it safe and find a way to make the science fiction thing work (not that I know for sure it will, but I'm still being a coward about it all).
     
  14. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    And not one of those from a first-time author.

    Which kind of proves what I said elsewhere in this thread: if you're well-known, no one will turn down your MS because of a prologue... or because there's no fixed genre... or any of the other reasons first-timers are rejected.
     
  15. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    The first chapter is Harry being dropped off at the Dursley's home, as a baby, 10 years before the start of chapter 2 ... Prologuey. (the first edition is in my daughter's bedroom and you cannot pay me enough money to venture into there alone,) so I looked it up online which is why I wrote in my post, ACCORDING TO SOME SOURCES.

    And I'm not claiming readers are bothered by prologues either way - I'm claiming agents and publishers, are bothered.

    The fact that the first chapter is prologuey, (it may or may not have been changed from one to the other) only goes to prove that there are agents who will throw the MS out as soon as they read the word prologue. So maybe it's not the content of the prologue (because Rowling changed that into chapter one) so much as just the blooming word.
     
  16. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Dan Brown, as Dan Brown, was a first time author with Digital Fortress in 1998. It has a prologue.
    Elaine Chissick's Ties That Bind was her first fiction novel. It has a prologue. (but no, she's not a best seller. Yet.)
     
  17. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    I feel like we're talking at cross-purposes here.

    No-one is saying any of these things:
    • Books with prologues necessarily don't sell
    • Books with prologues are necessarily bad
    • Every agent will reject books that have prologues

    We're saying:
    • Some agents will reject an MS if it has a prologue
    • We think they do this because most manuscripts they've read with prologues are crap. The manuscripts are not crap because of the prologue, they're crap because they're badly written. A prologue is a symptom of a badly written book, not a cause.
    • Some great books with prologues will be missed, and the agents don't care, because there are more great books out there than they could ever hope to represent, and they think they'll find them faster
    So yes, of course books with prologues can be popular and books with prologues can be good. But none of that's really relevant. We're speculating on thought process, nothing more.
     
  18. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    Which is my point as well.

    So, as first-time authors—whether it's fair or not—why would we choose to make things harder for ourselves?
     
  19. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    This is me playing devil's advocate, because I agree with you....

    Because in each of us there is a struggle between an artist who loves each word we wrote, and a more pragmatic person who wants to get published. It is everywhere present in this forum and every other writing forum I frequent. There are writers who are invested in this piece of writing, this is the thing, the child born unto me. My creation. To alter it would be no different than to cut a toe from mine own actual baby. That lives in me too, just to be clear.
     
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  20. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    I'm pretty sure Rowling was accepted by the first agent she submitted too, or at least very quickly. It was the publishers that gave her grief, and the cited reason was generally the length.
     
  21. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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  22. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    Devil's advocate or not, that was quite eloquent. :)
     
  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I agree that a lot of writers have the "this is my baby" feeling. And I don't think anyone has said writers shouldn't write what they want.

    Writers should write what they want, agents should represent what they want, and publishers should publish what they want. Right? If your real-life baby goes to a shitty college and takes a degree in hairstyle appreciation, employers are probably not going to want to hire him or her in most fields. That doesn't mean your kid's an idiot, necessarily, it just means s/he is behaving in a way that is most often seen from people who aren't that smart. It doesn't mean your kid didn't work hard, or that you didn't work hard, or that you and your kid don't have a lovely relationship or anything else. But I don't think anyone should be surprised if your kid doesn't get a great job.

    As a writer, I know that my readers don't really want to read speculative fiction from me. My contemporary romances WAY outsell my SF/F romances, and my one attempt at non-romance scifi was unsellable. (I self-published it to an almost total lack of interest). Doesn't mean I'm going to stop writing speculative fiction, if that's what I feel like writing. But when I write it, I accept that I'm limiting myself to a much smaller market, or possibly no market. That's the sacrifice I make for writing what I want.

    Expecting to be able to write whatever/however you want without an accompanying consequence? That seems naive, to me.
     
  24. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    On an only moderately related note....

    This whole conversation makes me wonder what Artist Writers must go through when they do get published, their books find popularity and then (drumroll please) the movie deal comes along!

    And never mind big franchise extravaganzas that promise to leave the writer sufficiently well off as to use benjies as toilet paper. What about the other books that make it to film that are actually really well written rather than having a ginormous fanbase? The Mysteries of Pittsburgh combined and/or deleted so many important characters from the book that I could hardly recognize it. Everything is Illuminated is missing an entire half of the book/story.
     
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  25. Catrin Lewis

    Catrin Lewis Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Community Volunteer

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    Oh, darn. My WIP has the word "pants" in it. I'm devastated.

    :rofl:
     

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