1. U.G. Ridley

    U.G. Ridley I'm a wizard, Hagrid

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    115
    Location:
    Norway

    Will high word-counts ruin your chance of getting published first time?

    Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by U.G. Ridley, Jul 25, 2016.

    I'm currently writing a book that is in the horror/drama genres. It's extremely character-driven rather than plot-driven, and it also just generally has a lot of layers that I feel like I need to explore in order for the story to turn out well. Therefore, I'm starting to see that the book is probably going to end up pushing far beyond the 60-80k mark that publishers apparently love so much. I've heard that if it's your first time trying to get published, going beyond this is a big no-no, and that you should only go beyond the 80k mark if you're already an established name in the writing world.

    How much truth is there to this notion? Is it really almost unheard of to get published if your first book goes beyond 80k?
     
    cydney likes this.
  2. mrieder79

    mrieder79 Probably not a ground squirrel Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    377
    Location:
    Uyumbe
    I have heard an agent say that they can't sell books with word counts above 120k. Check your genre and see what the agents are looking for. If an upper limit word count is given, you should stick to it. Its hard enough to get represented without breaking word count. Cutting your story down in size also is a good exercise, especially if its your first book.

    Best of luck and keep writing.
     
    U.G. Ridley likes this.
  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I'd say 80K is toward the low end of the sweet spot for most genres, and horror tends to be pretty long. I'd aim for 80-100 and not panic if I was anywhere under 110.
     
    Tenderiser and U.G. Ridley like this.
  4. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5,160
    Likes Received:
    4,243
    Location:
    Australia
    Finish it first. I'm sure you can cut it back if needed.
     
    Sack-a-Doo! and U.G. Ridley like this.
  5. Alex R. Encomienda

    Alex R. Encomienda Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    257
    This is what I've been wondering too. I'd say (and I'm not even sure) but only teen books get the 60,000 to 80,000 count. It depends on the story but it is almost impossible to complete a complex plot based novel and fully flesh it out and give it its full potential in under 100,000 words. Especially for what I'm doing, a fantasy.

    Honestly, my ideas could keep going on and on while my novel grows to a juggernaut 300,000 word count but I'm drawing the line at my last idea.

    Damn Cassandra Gemini giving me endless thoughts and shit.
     
    jannert and U.G. Ridley like this.
  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    I agree about YA often being shorter, and there are categories of Romance that generally have a lower word count.
     
  7. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    3,374
    Likes Received:
    1,629
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    A high word count (out of the norm for a genre) can make the hurdles higher to finding an agent and a publisher, especially with a first time author. But the quality of the work is important too.

    Like was suggested, finish the work and then revise, if needed, but write with an eye toward keeping it within the zone of 'acceptable length'. But you won't know where you stand until you have that first draft finished. Many authors' revision efforts tend to cut words from a first draft.
     
  8. Nightstar99

    Nightstar99 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2013
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    137
    Apparently it just costs more to print a long book so they aren't as keen to publish them. Publishing is a business and if they could print a single page of A5 and sell a million copies for $21.99, they would do.

    That said presumably if they think they will sell a million copies of a 200,000 worder, they will probably print it to do so.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,462
    Likes Received:
    11,689
    Not just printing, but editing as well. That's why even e-first publishers may hesitate with a longer book. And for print books there are extra shipping costs, storage costs, etc.
     
  10. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    In general, 80-120K should be the target range for first time authors. That being said, mine is 240K (800 pages), but is also a highly unusual historical fiction story. As I say in my query, "an epic journey of seventeen thousand miles across three continents in the first century." (No takers yet, just sent them out this week).

    I did see an article that there were 5 contracts awarded to first time authors last year that exceeded $1M, and all of the lengths ranged from 400 to 1000 pages (120K-350K words). There has to be something sellable here, though, something not done before, and written very, very well. Mine I think has not been done before (Romans in China), my readers all say it can't be put down once started. But again, it's what the agents are looking for, something sellable, not what I want to sell.

    Robert Jordan "Wheels of Time" writes in that range, but he is established. And "Hunt for Red October" was in that range for Tom Clancy's first book. It can be done, but choose the subject and genre well.

    It also takes a long time for a long book. Mine was 20 years in the making.
     
  11. FireWater

    FireWater Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    205
    I've looked up the word counts for numerous books in the YA fantasy/sci-fi/dystopia genre (since that's what I write), and those tend to be around 95K-110K, so I'm aiming for 90-100 for my WIP.

    With horror it really can depend, but I've seen some thick horror novels. I think it depends on the type of horror -- ones with supernatural element tend to be a little bit longer than the serial killer/"realistic" ones, probably because of the worldbuilding involved.
     
  12. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    And got a response from an agent in 24 hrs for my overweight 240K historical fiction tome, requesting the entire manuscript! So it can be done!
     
  13. FireWater

    FireWater Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2016
    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    205
    Awesome!
    Was the agent able to land a publishing deal? Or was this too recent to know yet?
     
  14. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    Way to0 recent. She promised a reply in about two months (appropriate for the length) and cautioned me the she rejects quite a few of those she accepts. Nevertheless it is a start in what she also said was a very long process. She also cautioned against sharing my query progress on face book. I have, and she was checking out my site. She said that a long list of rejects or unanswered submissions is a reason for agents to reject out of hand, unread. Fortunately, I am not a week into the process, and intend to pull that page.

    As for length, subject of the OP, I think acceptable length depends on subject matter. If it is a story that has been done to death, target for 100K. In my case, to my knowledge, no one has done a fictional story on what contact between Rome and China might have been like, so I seem to be getting some slack. The next step is if they like the style and way I crafted the story, so I am keeping fingers crossed and continuing to send queries.
     
    Lifeline and U.G. Ridley like this.
  15. terobi

    terobi Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    339
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Manchester, UK
    Depends on genre, but you should be reasonably safe going up to 120k or so with horror, sci-fi, fantasy, historical, etc.

    Though, I wouldn't worry about it for the moment. If you're just on a first draft, you'll almost certainly be able to edit out a good 10% or so once you get to the redrafting stage.

    The main reason those kind of ranges tend to be what publishers are looking for is that it hits the costs vs profit sweet spot. A novel has certain overheads which are the same regardless of length; cover design, marketing, etc. and a firt time author's book that is very short probably can't be sold at a high enough price point to make those costs back. Similarly, a whopping great tome of a book brings with it so many more expenses in editing, printing, binding, shipping, etc. costs that a first-time author is unlikely to shift enough copies to justify the expense.

    It's not just that the range is what "they apparently love so much", it's that they're already gambling on you in the first place. If your book is too long or too short, they're just not going to get enough back for it to be worth it.

    Of course, none of this matters if you're already wildly successful. J. K. Rowling could hand in a ten page pamphlet to her publisher tomorrow and they'd hard bind it and ship it straight out, while I'm pretty sure Brandon Sanderson and George R. R. Martin point and laugh at maximum word counts at this point.
     
    Lifeline and U.G. Ridley like this.
  16. Nightstar99

    Nightstar99 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2013
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    137
    Wow, well done Lew.

    So just to clarify, would you keep sending your manuscript out until / unless an agent makes a commitment, or are you meant to take it off the market now?
     
  17. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    I am continuing to send queries, one per day goal, until someone wants me on contract. And the agent was very helpful as I said in the query that I was a neophyte. She advised me not to keep a day by day record of my queries on my author's facebook site (I had started to do so and I guess she checked) as if the process goes on too long, or if I indicate success, it may affect the willingness of other agents to respond... I took that post down!
     
  18. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,282
    Likes Received:
    5,805
    Location:
    On the Road.
    Thanks Lew, good point! I'd never have thought but it makes sense :)

    Congratulations on your request, I wish you luck!
     
  19. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    7,471
    Likes Received:
    10,216
    Location:
    London, UK
    Reputable agents don't ask for exclusives (maybe there are some exceptions but in general...) and will expect you to keep querying while they read.
     
  20. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    Yes, she just requested that I let her know if I accepted a contract with another agent before her deadline, also SOP I believe
     
  21. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    1,647
    Location:
    [unspecified]
    Hey, @Lew, do you have a link to this article?
     
  22. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    I wish I had saved the link, but I didn't... trying to locate it.
     
  23. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
  24. U.G. Ridley

    U.G. Ridley I'm a wizard, Hagrid

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    115
    Location:
    Norway
  25. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    1,647
    Location:
    [unspecified]

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice