Well, when you put it that way...Yes. It's true. The MC's aren't even real people. Okay Sac-a-doo! for the short time I've been on this forum reading as many posts as time will allow, I've come to truly appreciate your view on subjects and your manner of expressing them. Hands down. Golden statue prize thingy handed in your direction. It seems that there are enough writers out there who agree that to pen a good story and encourage readers to see your characters the way you do, you must understand (more than the average bear) human behavior including plausible actions and reactions. So my question is, do you think more writers than not, as in a slight majority, have more empathy for humans and are more curious about them, than the average bear?
First, thanks for the compliments. As for answering your question... and a damned good question it is! I think most learn empathy from being cast as outsiders in school. They learn to observe, to stand back and try to work out what it takes to be included in a clique, even if that clique is the nerd or outsider group. And a lot realize that they are too short, too fat, too skinny, too tall, too... whatever to be accepted in a group other than the ones that—to paraphrase Groucho Marx—would accept them as members. Therein, I think, is born the 'natural' curiosity that leans to writing down observations about social interaction in story form. Empathy? Darned tooin', but it starts in childhood as self-pity and grows to include the other outsiders. And when a writer writes about heroes? It's an unfulfilled wish for acceptance. Okay. Let the flames begin!
I have fuck-all empathy for humans. I simply cannot be asked to give a shit. Empathy for animals, I have an abundance of that. What it takes really is theory of mind. Your characters are not you, they are not the same people as each other, they must act like individuals. And for that, we as authors need to really tune in our empathy to yes, a VERY exaggerated degree. We're asking readers to not only care about someone else, which in itself can be difficult, but to care about people who do not exist at all.
No flame throwing here. Thanks for your input, it was surprisingly specific and definitely something to think about. Perhaps the word 'self pity" could also include simply the word 'pity', for other outsiders. In other words if I was feeling sorry for myself, psychologically, it's now buried to ensure my productive self-survival. And usually, writers start before adolecense. Who didn't love it when the teacher said "your assignment will be to write ..." Easy A. So understanding the dynamics of being an outsider, that such a position even exists, would have to begin at a very young age. In my case, my race was by far a low number minority until my high school years, so you have a point there. Maybe I didn't feel that much like an outsider at the time but looking back, the term could definitely apply as well as the process for curiosity and empathy for other people.
Writers choose to write. If you wanted to be a writer, you would be both reading and writing. I've never been at a loss for how to do either of these things, and still I put in a lot of practice and a lot of hours to reach my goals. You can go ahead and call yourself lazy, but from reading both of your posts in this thread, I'm not so sure you really want to be a writer. That's not to sound mean or anything, but I just don't understand wanting something and doing practically nothing to get it but then still saying I really want it. Do you?
But none of these has anything to do with content or with writing honestly. For what it's worth I think both @jannert and @123456789 are right. There's no reason both their points can't be true at the same time. The things you have mentioned are not reasons. They are structures. You have not mentioned a reason why to write yet. Think on it some more. You are chasing the rabbit down the hole. I've watched you employ this exercise since 2009. It's getting you nowhere and, in fact, seems to be hampering and hindering you to an extreme degree. This may be a good exercise for some people, but from what I have seen here in your forum participation, it's not a good exercise for you. It's not. This is a total non-sequitur. From your other recent post it's clear you have gotten it into your head that smart people should be able to churn out a bestseller while doing the laundry, and what's more, that if they don't churn out that bestseller then they must be dumb. Where did you get this idea? Throw it away. It makes no sense.
So don't then - write non fiction , journalism , songs, poems whatever Or not, if you don't want to write, then you know, don't - no one has a gun to your head ... but in that case you need a different hobby if you want to be a writer - writing is kind of obligatory
Actually,. I haven't employed this exercise even one single time. I've tried to write in a certain style, not knowing what style it was, having no model in front of me. But I have never actually tried sentence imitation exercises. It has been demonstrated that everyone who tries it benefits from it. It is used in the classroom.
You've made mention of it many times. You've provided sentence examples where you remark on the structural similarity to phrase structures drawn from the bible. You've talked about this in the past, many, many times and I've engaged you in conversations on the very topic. Why would I be so quick to remark on it otherwise?
@waitingforzion, you keep making statements that seem to add up to the fact that you're afraid to do X, because it might go wrong or you might wish that you had done Y. Can you tell us exactly what the fear is? You may think that that's a full description, but to me it's not. If I did X and then wished I'd done Y...well, at least I did something. No big deal. Now I'll try Y. So I don't really understand the fear. - Is it fear of having wasted time? But aren't you wasting far, far more time not making up your mind? If you spend a year wondering if you should do X or Y or Z or A or B or C, or you spend that year instead giving a month to X and another month to Y and another month to Z....in the second case aren't you, at worst, wasting the same amount of time that you would have wasted in the first place? - Is it fear that if you make the wrong choice, if you commit an error....something terrible will happen? Is it sheer fear of error? My mother used to un-do tasks that were done imperfectly, because she'd rather do nothing at all than do something imperfectly. Is it something like that? - Is it fear that you'll discover that maybe you don't have a talent that you hope that you have? Well, maybe you will discover that. But there's no way to ever find out what talents you DO have, until you try some things. - ....? Is it a different fear? Are you able to describe it?
I'm still waiting for the links to the scientists who "are not in agreement with those writers" from your Wired to be Writers thread, so possibly this is a waste of time, but... can you link to where "it has been demonstrated that everyone who tries it benefits from it"?
There was no structural similarity. There was only attempted rhythmic similarity, but I did not have a model to imitate in front of me, only an idea of which work I wanted to imitate. I used some words in a similar way, and in rare cases used short grammatical patterns from memory, but overall there was no similarity. I don't have links. I just remember reading in books that the people who get good at things are the ones who practice. Sentence imitation is simply using the form of a sentence as a template. I don't have links to any studies, but teachers have used it in the classroom with great success. It adds to the students repetoire of grammatical and rhetorical forms. I have not really tried it.
I'm worried that if I have too much fun something bad will happen. And whenever I start to write something, I think it is stupid and give up on it.
What I think is the biggest problem is that there's a writing exercise you've wanted to do since 2009 and haven't done it yet.
I generally have that thought somewhere after the eighth pint , and/or whilst chatting up a beautiful woman (in the past i mean darling. *ducks*..) its never occurred to me about writing I mean whats the absolute worst that can happen - you spend a few hours writing something that turns out to be a pile of shite , really so what ? , he who never made a mistake never made anything worthwhile either
I can't do anything for your first fear. That's beyond me. However, your second fear is easily addressed. Don't give up on it. Keep going. Decide what you want to say and work on saying it. Forget 'how' your words sound. Just get them to make sense, and have a purpose besides looking and sounding perfect. That will give you a different goal. Your goal at the moment seems to be 'I want to write something perfect, and nothing less than perfect will satisfy me.' That's not going to work, because nothing is ever perfect, and you will always be disappointed if perfection is your goal. My husband refers to this attitude as 'divine discontent.' People who are divinely discontented are never happy. They just want something OTHER than what they've got, no matter what they've got. We had a neighbour who used to constantly renovate her house, because as soon as she got done with one renovation she 'didn't like it,' and started all over again. She wasted an awful lot of money and forced her kids and husband to live in constant upheaval because of her inability to work with what she had, improve what she had, and be contented with what she had. If you are unwilling to change your way of thinking or modify your approach, then you will always be stuck in this rut. A change of attitude is one of those things nobody else can help you with. You have to do it yourself. Look outside yourself. Is there something in the world today that bothers you a lot? (Not everything, but something specific.) Write about it. Is there somebody you know who is going through a bad time just now? Write about them. (Changing names and identifiable characteristics of course.) What would you do to help them, if you could? What do you think they might change, to make things better? Write about this. Is there a particular wish you have for yourself? Something that may never happen, but something you really want? Write about it. Pretend that it has happened. Does it make you happy? Or is there something about it that isn't quite what you expected? Pretend that you ARE a famous writer, whose prose is nearly perfect, who is totally happy with what you've written. You are so famous that all sorts of people are knocking on your door, asking you to come to events, to accept prizes, etc. What happens then? Wow. Before you know it, you're writing a story.
Especially as the first draft is nearly always crap - even for multi best selling authors - I saw an interview with Wilbur Smith once where he was saying that he always hates his first drafts but you've got to dig up the rough diamonds before you can cut and polish them, and think how many books he's sold. expecting to write beautifully polished gem straight off is hopelessly unrealistic and just set you up for failure before you begin
Story telling is a talent. It doesn't always go hand in hand with being the best writer, and vice versa.
But doesn't that play to what Frank Norris (and so many others) said, "I don't like to write, I like to have written?" I think there's a bit of that in all of us. Myself, I don't particularly like writing. I simply can't stop myself for long without going nuts. Exactly. It's either that or go nuts... or feel unfulfilled... or climb a tower with an automatic weapon. I'm guessing, from my own past experiences, that this is more about confidence and self-image than goal-setting and that whole 'which career is best for me' thing. If enough people, or the 'right' people, say enough negative stuff about someone and their abilities or push them too hard in the wrong direction, it'll warp that person's sense of self to the point where no amount of desire seems able to break through all the crap and allow that someone to be who and what they truly are. It's especially bad if it's a parent who has battered and brow-beaten said person into paying lip service to a particular life/career when something completely different would make them feel happy and fulfilled. Going just by what was said in the thread-opening post, I'm leaning toward this being the heart of the matter. I've been there and it's a confusing, frustrating and depressing place to be. @waitingforzion, as I said before, needs to make some major life changes. Only then will s/he know which is the right path, to write or not to write. In @waitingforzion's other thread, Editing as I go, I see more evidence to back up this theory.
Yes, it's a real eye-opener to look back and realize something now that we didn't realize then. I don't think anyone under the age of 15 or 20 ever really believes they're an outsider, even when the evidence is staring them right in the face. Certainly, no one wants to believe that. It's one more reason, IMHO, that schools should never-ever cancel arts programmes. Where the hell else are outsiders going to find kinship?
Disagree. Being an outsider starts at kindergarten, not knowing where to sit at lunch, and never quite figuring it out, even into adulthood...
I'm with @123456789 on this one. I've recently started to like the quote about, "Not fitting into a world this messed up is a good thing." But that's mostly to make myself feel better.
