Describing Whiteness?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Oscar Leigh, Aug 20, 2016.

  1. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I think writingwithcolor's great - I've referenced it quite a bit - and just in glancing over diversitycrosscheck I assume I saw the question you're referencing, which is literally answered with: "First of all, you can write a PoC character while being a white person yourself." Sure, they go into more detail, but what kind of resource/help blog would they be if they just answered "of course"?
     
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  2. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well, I'm not saying they should just say of course. I am saying they shouldn't act like it's so hard though. Any realistic human character can be made any gender, race, orientation, whatever. And of that list race is of the least impactful things. Orientation produces certain behaviour, sexually, and gender is associated with some behavioural trends. While as race is just a small section of your genes. And their advice I find questionable, when is the character ever a representative of the entire race except in the minds of racists? The place isn't too bad but I don't particularly like it.
    I guess writingwithcolour is okay although I still feel it places pressure on any incredibly simple task with little meaning. I also noticed in their what do about racism, for white people guide it mentions objecting to a cab preferencing white people. but there's no way of knowing why that happened you can't assume that's racist. You can only take about it as a trend, because individual examples are perfectly justified. They literally can't pick up everyone at once, they're probably going to pick the wealthiest looking people in fact, to get paid well. I suspect any trends might actually be based off them picking white people more because they're more likely to be wealthy.
    Also, there's a thing that everyone is racist. I'm sorry, these definitions people use for these arguments are silly, they are not what most people mean by racism. Yes, people have a bias to their own race generally, and there is some cultural lean towards white people, but neither of these mean everyone qualifies as racist. I also don't like the way this person is talking about how white people should feel and think "almost inconsequential" is not a good attitude to promote about white people's contribution to racism discussions. It's leaning towards white guilt. I also don't like the lean towards feeling guilty for the racism of others, ancestors are not the responsibility of present people, else middle eastern people should be feeling more guilty about enslaving black and white people in the past but few people talk about that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
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  3. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I don't think there's any problem with thinking critically and deeply about how we construct characters, and considering that there are details we might miss when writing about things outside of our personal experiences. That's what these kinds of blogs are for. Because it's not 'easy' to find out what you don't know you don't know about any given type of person's experiences.

    A while back on here someone posted an excerpt they'd whipped up that was supposed to be from the perspective of a trans woman. I'm pretty sure you were in that thread, so you might remember it? And to be blunt, it was fucking awful; the poster had her treating the fact that she was trans as some big trick and making fun of the men who were attracted to her, and alluded to her using men's restrooms. This person obviously didn't know anything about trans women. I'm sure they thought it was 'easy' to write one, though. I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in being that kind of writer - I'm going to educate myself on how impactful things like race and gender and orientation are, and blogs like this are a great resource for that. I don't think we should pretend that we live in a society where those things aren't meaningful. For instance, the cab thing? Why would you think black people are less likely to be wealthy? Did that just happen overnight, for no reason, or are there historical and societal reasons for it that could influence a person's life - which might be good to think about if you're writing a black character?

    But honestly, I'm not interested in debating it with you, so you do you.
     
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  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    There more likely to be less wealthy because they are. You know the whole civil rights issues of black people's still behind in statistics of poverty?
    But yeah, I do remember that thread. And that's was a bit off. Though I wonder, maybe just maybe are there women who do take this kind of trans revenge attitude? Maybe we're being narrowed minded in thinking this doesn't happen?
     
  5. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    They're more likely to be less wealthy because ... they are. You don't think you need to think about that one a little more? I'm not talking about the statistical reality, I'm talking about the cause for that statistical reality, and how it can impact people and, as a result, (thoughtfully-written) characters.

    Look, I will tell you with %100 certainly: no. It does not happen. There are not trans women (already one of the most at-risk demographics) out there willingly putting themselves in more danger for 'revenge' outside of fiction. It's not narrow-minded, it's understanding that such a thing would be ludicrous to suggest if you know anything about the reality of being a trans woman (or trans, period). Which conveniently, is kind of the point here - putting effort into understanding people and the places they're coming from rather than making wild conjecture based off whatever ill-formed concepts you scraped together about them from mass media.
     
  6. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, I did say there and here it sound wrong. I just like the be skeptical about these things.
    And I don't think it's right to require considering the wealth status of African-Westerners because 1. They're not always poor. 2. People can react differently to the same circumstances. And 3. The relationship between behaviours and background is a poorly understood area as psychology is a very difficult field, and quite new relatively.
     
  7. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    Okay, look, I am not getting half of what you're saying, either you need to go to bed or I do. I'm out.
     
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  8. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Whatever you need to do. :)
     
  9. Sal Boxford

    Sal Boxford Senior Member

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    Dude, yes these sites are good. They do answer that question with 'something along the lines of "of course"'.

    "First of all, you can write a PoC character while being a white person yourself. This tumblris — after all — dedicated to helping people develop characters whose experiences they do not share."

    They're saying: 'Yes you can and we want you to! And we're so glad you're putting research, thought and empathy into it.' And you do need to put extra work into it. The way we experience the world depends in part on the way the world reacts to us. The world reacts differently to people it puts into different categories, even when those categories 'just don't matter'. You can't just decide you know how to write someone on the grounds that you're a person just like anyone else.

    The character you create without the research won't be 'wrong', but the chances of him/her being great are pretty slim. Like your example of straight people writing gay characters, when men write women, there are so many kinds of woman, but there are a lot of everyday experiences shared by most women that a man is very unlikely to know about unless he's had some pretty personal conversations with female friends or relatives or otherwise done his research, and therefore might not factor in. So, similarly, of course men can write women, but I've read female characters that would have benefited greatly from their creator speaking to a real live woman.
     
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  10. Sal Boxford

    Sal Boxford Senior Member

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    Whoops! Snap!

    ETA: I spent so long typing a reply I missed a LOT of posts! That's punishment for watching The X-Factor.
     
  11. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    As far as I can tell, nobody's saying a single word about genes--this isn't about genes. You seem to assume that people are molded entirely by genes, when, no, they're largely molded by society. And society treats people of different races differently.

    Later, you seem to be avoiding the question of why blacks are likely to be less wealthy. They're likely to be less wealthy because we still live in an extremely racist society.
     
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  12. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I wouldn't say extremely. And I would argue a lot of it is leftover. Martin Luther King Jr died after the birth of some people who are still alive. It's only sense that problems we deal with might still be fading as many aren't quick fixes. Yeah, it's not helped by existing racism, but people are mostly against any prejudice towards black people in the west now, a large portion of it mustering the effort to change the legacy left behind. And of course natural bias towards one's own race combined with general hesitance to change and laziness mean this is sustained more than it should.
    Regardless, the taxi is not an example of someone being racist you need to call out on. Because you have provided nothing about the intent of the driver in selecting their clients.
     
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Have you watched the news lately, at all? You seriously believe that racism is a thing of the past?

    I have to assume that you lead an even more sheltered life than I do, and mine is pretty darn sheltered.

    And of course a taxi refusing to pick up nonwhites is an example of racism that should be called out. It wasn't that long ago that the taxi service in a Tennessee town where I have relatives closed down, because they weren't allowed to discriminate. They changed to a limo service instead, because it was much easier to get away with.

    Racism remains rampant. And denying that fact helps to keep that racism alive. Stop the denial and try to fix the problem instead.
     
  14. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Oops, someone didn't read my post. I didn't say it was a thing of the past.:crazy:
    And again, it's not discrimination to follow good business practice i.e pick the customer who will pay best. If a black man stands there in a nice business suit they'll probably preference him over a white yokel but if it's two similar white and black people then it would make sense to pick the one with the higher statistical likelihood of being middle class or higher. So you can't assume in those cases it's discrimination, especially given the random element of their choices, and natural bias towards one's own race exists in all of us too, but that that isn't racism.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Oscar, on what grounds do you override the experience of blacks with your own opinion? What life experience makes you so positive that you're right and the black passengers who have watched empty cab after empty cab ignore them, despite the complete lack of any other passengers, wrong? Are they lying? Are the city governments that acknowledge the problem lying?
     
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  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Returning to because I missed the mind boggling:

    That IS discrimination. Clear discrimination. You pick the white because you make assumptions about the nonwhite? What do you think that is, other than discrimination?

    Is it also just fine and dandy for landlords and banks to refuse to do business with nonwhites? And employers?

    Civil Rights Act. I understand that it happened before you were born, but it still happened nevertheless.
     
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  17. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    No, no, not all people, just politicians... er, ah... I mean, snakes. People probably taste like pork. They sure smell like pork when they're cooking and so many live like pigs.
     
  18. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Civil Rights Act is American legislation. I don't think Oscar's in the US.
     
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  19. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    In that example, yes. But that's not what we where talking about. We were discussing a specific theoretical example. And why do people always seem to turn to "don't tell them what their experience is" or "don't tell women how to be feminists" when I'm trying to make a logical argument? A good point is a good point, regardless of shaming.
     
  20. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I don't mean they should be allowed to refuse all blacks. But in a very short term decision the statistical likelihood is much higher the white customer is a better pick monetarily. So it would be sensible for occasional preferencing to occur.
     
  21. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    We have similar legislation, more advanced even. It's just not as relevant as @ChickenFreak thinks it is. There seems to be consistent confusion with my posts.
     
  22. ShannonH

    ShannonH Senior Member Contest Winner 2023

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    Maybe instead of focusing on physical descriptions you could focus on characteristics?

    You see, black guys drive a car like this; "Do do do-do, do-by do do," but white guys drive a car like this; "De de de a-de de de."

    We're so lame!
     
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  23. Sal Boxford

    Sal Boxford Senior Member

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    And what is the deal with people from under the orange sun? They're all... But us guys from under the red sun we're all...
     
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  24. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    :superlaugh::superlaugh: Thank you!
     
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    In the US, that would be illegal. However many times that you argue that discrimination based on skin color in this situation is "sensible", it remains illegal. The law doesn't care if your discrimination is due to hatred or due to economic factors; discrimination is illegal.

    In the short term it may be hard to prove, but that hasn't been your argument.
     

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