The value of reciprocity

Mat's like a cat- he thinks he's cute even when he's got a carcass hanging out of his mouth.

 

Great writers are ones who can take criticism. If you can't, you're not going to get very far, or learn much.

I started out in painting, some people paint pictures that look "nice" and other people push themselves. It's the way it is.

 

What's wrong with trying to get a writer to accept the critique? So what if it takes interpersonal skills! If that is the only way, than that should be done. I mean, the writer posted his work for critique, that surely indicates that he wants someone to critize. And what's wrong with being protective of your work? You spent a lot of time with it and even more polishing it up, making it as attractive as you could before posting it.
That some people respond negatively to critique (although I haven't seen it so far here) is just human nature and pre-puberty behaviour can happen to the best of us when our emotions are engaged. And.. I am not trying to defend anyone, but fact is that in postings words can easily be misinterpreted. But, oh yes, we are all such great writers it surely cannot happen to US

 

Finding something positive to put at the very start of a critique can help a lot.
I don't think it takes much more in the way of interpersonal skills than that. (Beyond obvious things like don't call their work shit.)

A lot of people are a lot more open to considering negative points if you've first got it into their heads that you don't hate their entire piece from top to bottom.
It psychologically feels more like you're being told your writing has potential, this is how you can improve it. - rather than you're a hopeless writer, who has no business dreaming of publication, and this is why.
Even if you give 1 positive point followed by 30 negative points, rounded off with 1 more positive point, that works for most people.

There are a handful of people who are going to bite back at any sort of negative criticism, but there's less of them and they're not worth worrying about.

 

Thanks for the reminder, Wreybies.

 

Doesn't look like it if my critiquing and submissions are anything to go by.

BTW. Oil soaked ostrich feathers don't work.

 

Any two well-considered critiques anywhere within the Workshop buys you the right to post an item of your own anywhere in the Workshop.

It doesn't happen often, tbh, and the scenario tends to play out more when a member is brand new and has just gotten the Workshop bouncer to step aside and let them post. Suddenly there's a flood of individual, unique threads from said member and we have to iterate the rule again, though it is clearly worded in several areas of the forum.

I too have more critiques given than I will foreseeable ever exhaust by posting my own items. I give critique because I see it as a way of improving my own eye; it benefits me in the doing. But that's a different soapbox.

 

Well whoops. I never even visited this place, or realized that theres a critique/posting ratio. Good thing I'm so adorably shy with showing my work.

Also, why do I feel like I'm trespassing somehow? (Looks for Wreybies and his ban hammer with trepidation)

 

Trespassing? How? Why?

Nah. It hits me that I haven't seen your name on the threads I've visited lately, but you're a good Contributing Member. Liberty hall, sir, liberty hall. Come and go as you will.

 

I read through this whole thread, even though much of it is from a year ago. There was a lot of discussion around the topic of why bother to offer critiques if the writers are just going to pop off and become unpleasant because they seem to want only praise.

It's been my experience (my own, and other people I know) that writers are often defensive about their work, unless they know there is something wrong with it from the get-go. However, if they put out what they think is good work, and hear otherwise? They might not be very happy. Some authors will grit their teeth and say thank you when readers point out problems they had with the piece. Some authors are just being polite to say this, while others actually do see the point and are genuinely grateful. Other authors can totally lose the rag.

However they initially respond, I do think most of the writers will—eventually—at least THINK about what has been said. Sooner or later, they MAY make the suggested changes. It's just that their first reaction to criticism is to deflect it.

I'd say it's always worthwhile to give an honest critique, even if what you say isn't what the writer wanted to hear. (Of course it goes without saying that courteousness is mandatory.) Once the recipient quits gnashing teeth and throwing cups, they just might take what you said on board.

Writing is very personal for most people, so of course they may take criticism personally. Just give them the space and understanding to maybe react badly, at least at first? They may come around later, once the pressure to respond is gone.

 

This is also one of (if not the main) reasons I advocate doing the crit for your own personal benefit and growth. Waiting around for gratitude is no more fruitful than receiving a crit made of pink smoke. I know it's a dying religion, but I hold to the faith.

 

I don't need gratitude or even acknowledgement (though it's nice), but I do get really irritated when a writer is being a cockwomble--actually insulting critics, or being argumentative--and others keep coming in and giving fresh critiques, ignoring other threads that need replies. I imagine it's because threads that blow up appear in recent posts / new posts more often, so people check them out. But it does annoy me, and makes me feel very sorry for the people who genuinely want critique and only get one or two replies.

 

Just as a reminder to the forum as a whole, please remember that the Workshop rules indicate that a member must give two (2) well-considered critiques for every one (1) new item posted in the Writing Workshop. It's not 2 critiques and then spam the Workshop with everything on your hard-drive. It's always a 2-for-1. This is how the Workshop's productivity is ensured. Please make sure that you follow this dynamic because, though we won't see every infraction thereof, when we do, we will first ask that it be remedied by the member giving the missing number of critiques needed to fulfill the pact, else remove/close the overage of newly posted items. We would much rather the former rather than the latter.

ETA:

Just to be pedantically clear for any who are unsure as to what this means...

If I go into a member's profile page and see this:


Then I expect to find at least 48 well considered, individual critiques given to other members by this member. That snapshot is from my own member profile. That's how many individual items I have posted for critique across the years. I'm not really worried about my own ratio because I have done literally hundreds of critiques. I enjoy doing them. I find the act of doing them to be the most personally educational thing I can do in this kind of forum environment.

Now, you're asking yourself why the mods just don't stop members from breaking the rule. We do. But we don't live here in the software. We're not A.I.s plugged into the code. We depend on the citizenry to help us because we are only human, we have things to do away from the digital fantasy. If you notice something like this, report it. It's so simple. Hit the report button. When the mods look into it, if there are grounds to take action, they will. If they find that the member is square with their crits, the member will be none the wiser and all will continue as normal.

 

Well said. Bravo.

 

I just found this out! Sounds fair. I got to start critiquing.

 

That's cool, that we can see how many entries we've submitted for critique. Now I'm wondering, is there somewhere we can see the number of other members' Workshop threads we've contributed to?

 

Something that I've seen done on another website I'm a part of is a point system. Let me explain.

When you submit a review, or a critique, it will give you a certain number of points. However, the critique has to be over 250 characters. So, a 250 character critique will get you 25 points (the starting point), 500 will get you 50, 750 will get you 75, 1000 will get you 100. The max number of points you can earn from one review is 100, even if your critique is over that number.

There are a small number of people that spam and do aggravating things, but they're reported.

Of course, the numbers can be changed and such, but overall it's a great system that works well without people getting away with posting without critiques, and it also makes sure that the critiques that people are writing are good ones. Unless they're spamming, but in my experience it's usually easier to find someone who's spamming the screen with repeated 'a's than to go onto people's profiles looking for those numbers, you know what I'm saying?

Just a suggestion.

 

Another thing I think is important to point out is if you find a user has posted something, but has done so without following the requirements made apparent above by Wreybies do not be afraid to speak up about it. The only way to ensure that the forums stays productive is that everyone keeps a 2:1 critique ratio. Many people will typically come on here, post a piece of work, and then only stick around to see what people have to say then leave. If you see this feel free to tag any of the admins/moderators on the forums so they can handle it.

I don't want people to go on a rampant witch-hunt for these people, but if you happen to stumble upon someone posting without following the guidelines it would be good to at least remind those people of the guidelines and if they still don't follow them contact a mod.

 

The problem I see a lot is brand new members who are nescient to the rules enthusiastically posting big clumps of their WIP on regular threads. Sometimes all they want is to use the excerpt to illustrate the problem they're struggling with. But when it's more than a paragraph or two it's so tempting for older members to start giving Workshop-style critiques.

The issue here is not so much with the innocent newbie, but with established members who can't control themselves (and believe me, I know it can be hard). Maybe we should all develop a tactful Take It to the Workshop Once You Qualify speech. Or perhaps this is the time to alert one of the mods, so he or she can exert some gentle guidance.

 

I've fallen into that trap before, because I just didn't realise the poster didn't meet the requirements.

The mods usually deal with it pretty quickly.

 

Well, yeah, when the poster is doing it prematurely in the Workshop. But I'm talking about when they do it in one of the general writing forums. None of us are supposed to do that.