For story purposes, can someone build their own smartphone, computers, and OS from scratch?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by pensmightierthanthesword, Jan 26, 2017.

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For story purposes, can someone build their own smartphone, computers, and OS from scratch?

  1. Yes

    55.6%
  2. No

    40.7%
  3. I Don't Know

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  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    In that case, my answer is, absolutely no way it could be done without a couple of hundred people, several decades, and fairly unlimited funds. And I may be underestimating drastically.
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Making the chip alone would be daunting if you had to do it with base materials.
     
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    This is true. Possibly impossible, and if not, a "couple of hundred" people is probably insufficient. How many people does it take to man a fab? And that's ignoring the decades and decades of knowledge required to get to the countless technologies involved in the fab, and....

    OK, let's try this again--to those who are arguing that it's possible:

    You have a rubber plant, a field of corn (for the gasahol), and a mine that produces iron ore.

    Make me a 2017 Chevy Volt. And be quick about it.

    Edited to add: And by "rubber plant", I mean a thing with stems and leaves, not a factory. You have to work out how to produce the rubber.
     
  4. Dnaiel

    Dnaiel Senior Member

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    Okay. I'm on it. Hold on...

    Wait, what color do you want it in? And does it have to have seats?
     
  5. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. And GPS. Get those satellites up there!
     
  6. Dnaiel

    Dnaiel Senior Member

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    Satellites. Got it. I'm getting the ladder right now.
     
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  7. Wolf Daemon

    Wolf Daemon Active Member

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    All I see are a lot of "this would take 100 people or more to make. I think you guys are underestimating how easy it is to make a phone. It would take a long time but given the proper equipment you could do it yourself. It is possible, you just need the equipment and the know how.
     
  8. pensmightierthanthesword

    pensmightierthanthesword Member

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    I never specified what timeframe this story takes place in or how many people are working on the software and hardware. It could be many people or a few people. I wouldn't have a problem expanding the time frame in which this technology was built, discuss it by peppering in backstory. That's honestly not a problem. From scratch to me is the base materials. "from the very beginning, especially without utilizing or relying on any previous work for assistance."

    I mean what are our smartphones made out of? Technology has evolved over time, but it started out somewhere, from the ground up. If this technology is already around and has been in this universe, for awhile, then they wouldn't be the first ones building this technology, it's already there. All they'd need is the brains, the manpower, and the time. All of which are easy plot holes to fix.

    Like @Wolf Daemon said, everything was made from scratch somehow, but what intrigues me is if there is a group of people who want to create this technology based on what is already there "from scratch", from their own ingenuity and intelligence without any outside resources to help (by that I mean buying a junk phone and hacking it or using a motherboard that was already manufactured by a high-end corporation) how would they get the money to do this? Time doesn't bother me since I know how to remedy that. It's how could a group obtain the money to do that and can it be done? The second question was answered, already. Yes, it can be done, but it would be difficult. Okay, well if there is a possibility then I have to figure out how'd they get past the obstacles.
     
  9. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    If "the proper equipment" includes phone chips, antennas, batteries, and all sorts of other phone components, then, certainly, it would be easy to assemble those phone parts into a phone. If the location where you're building the phone already has cell towers, phone companies, and satellites, then it would be possible to use the phone.

    But that's a far cry from "from scratch".
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    These two seem to directly contradict one another. One says that the technology doesn't already exist. One says that it does. Can you clarify?
     
  11. pensmightierthanthesword

    pensmightierthanthesword Member

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    No, the technology is around, but this group is required to create everything from the base materials. They have blueprints, obviously, but they are working from the ground up. I'm not sure how that contradicts itself or how else to really explain it further without repeating myself. A technology can already exist and someone uses a blueprint to recreate it from the ground up.
     
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Ah. Now I follow. But it's still not that simple.

    Let's say that the blueprint for a smartphone tells you to create a Widget64 chip. But you can't buy Widget64 chips.

    Then let's say that you have a blueprint for a Widget64 chip. That blueprint assumes that you have a fab--a semiconductor fabrication plant. The fab has many machines, each one with its own chips and its own OS. It also has things like clean rooms. Wikipedia: "The clean room contains the steppers for photolithography, etching, cleaning, doping and dicing machines. " Each of the machines used to build the chip for the phone is substantially MORE complex and hard to build than the smartphone and computer that you're trying to build. Drastically more. And that's before you acquire the materials that the fab uses to make the chips.

    You'd need blueprint for tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of parts. To create that Widget64 chip will require you to duplicate a non-trivial percentage of the technological capabilities of our modern civilization, and a number of people equalling a non-trivial percentage of the people who work in that modern civilization.

    Let's step away from computers. Let's imagine that you want to create a car. Let's narrow that down to you wanting to create a tire.

    To create a tire that looks like today's tires, you will need to create a functionality equivalent to a modern-day rubber plantation, factory that somehow makes rubber out of rubber plants, electricity, mine for mining iron to make steel, factory to make steel wire, factory to assemble those components...and I suspect that there are dozens and dozens of other thing that I haven't begun to think of.

    Modern technology is the culmination of countless inventors and capabilities that built on other inventors and capabilities, step by step by step by step by step by step. Countless steps. Countless workers. Countless factories and fields and mines.

    Edited to add: And for the cellphone, you're forgetting the need for the cell network, cell towers, and, while you're at it, satellites.
     
  13. Wolf Daemon

    Wolf Daemon Active Member

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    Not really. Building something "from scratch" just means building something from its most basic components. I could build a phone from scratch right now if I had the tools and the know how.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    This does not make sense, unless "the tools" include all of the actual parts for a phone.

    Seriously. The average person is not equipped to make a computer chip, antenna, battery, etc., from scratch. They're just not. There are things that really, truly do require equipment and factories.

    Are you equally confident that you could make your own automobile? From scratch, without access to any manufactured auto parts?
     
  15. Wolf Daemon

    Wolf Daemon Active Member

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    How does it not make sense? Have you never made anything in you life? Same concept except it's more intricate.

    Tool: a device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

    Just to make sure you understand what a tool is. And the average person may not be, but that doesn't immediately mean it is impossible. And you don't need factories to build things. You do know that. Factories are solely to speed up the manufacturing process and build on a massive scale (meaning (example) 1,000 a day).

    Factory: a person, group, or institution that continually produces a great quantity of something specified.

    With enough know how and the right equipment. Yeah I could make an automobile from scratch.

    Building things is quite simple if you know what you're doing.
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    No. There are things that an individual cannot build alone. You really don't understand this? You really think that everything that you see in the world--light bulbs, computer chips. televisions, everything--can be built by one person with hand tools?

    Let's start with converting crude oil to plastic. Please explain to me how you will achieve that with hand tools.
     
  17. Sam Woodbury

    Sam Woodbury Member

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    It sounds like "from scratch" means building a unique or custom phone or computer with a unique OS in a world where such things already exists i.e. something that resembles our world where someone might design a custom phone or computer with a custom IO when Apple, Samsung, Google, Windows, etc already exist. This would utilize existing networks and infrastructure, but it would not be existing "off the shelf" hardware or software.

    Of course this is possible because new brands or operating systems are introduced over time. Ten years ago Blackberry was the dominant smartphone while the iPhone was just getting started and the Samsung smartphone was still a ways in the future. The Android OS seemed to come out of nowhere very quickly about that time. Ten years from now we'll probably still have IOS, Android, or Windows, albeit newer versions, but I'm sure that something new will come along.
    But such an endeavor would still be highly influenced by existing hardware and software i.e. "blueprints"and still would require substantial resources and teams of specialists to roll it out in a large scale even if it might start with the efforts of a single person.

    A lot of what we take for granted now started as garage or basement experiments of a single individual or perhaps a pair, like the Wright Brothers, a couple bicycle makers from Ohio applying their skills with an existing technology to a new form of transportation. But it took decades and massive numbers of people and resources, (perhaps accelerated by a couple world wars) to get to the point that the airplane largely replaced the train or ship for long distance travel.

    If this is to design a device for a specific purpose or for a small group, then it would have to consider the costs of developing all new hardware and software compared to maybe just redesigning or modifying what already exists (such as developing a new app for an existing OS).
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Returning to note that an "Intel Core processor" has 1.7 billion transistors. I'm sure that having a human being put one of those together, transistor by transistor, with hand tools, will be no big deal. Yep. No doubt somebody who has experience with "building things" can knock it off after lunch. Before lunch, they can make the silicon wafer and the magnifying glass that allows them to see in a nanometer scale. Just one processor. No need for a factory if we're making just one.

    Yep.

    To add another point: We use computers to design and build computers. We use a computer with an OS to write an OS. There has NEVER been a time when we used pencil and paper to create a computer or an OS anywhere near the complexity of what we use today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  19. Sam Woodbury

    Sam Woodbury Member

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    I see four scenarios with developing a new smartphone, computer, or OS from scratch.

    1. Someone with basic (or even advanced) 21st knowledge of computers and smart phones shows up in a preindustrial world like A Connecticut icut Yankee in King Arthur's Court and recreates from scratch all the infrastructure required for our current level of technology with regard to phones and computers. That would not be believable at all. The fact that main character in CT Yankee almost single handly introduces 19th century technology to a medieval setting strains credibility. I haven't read that in a while but I seem to recall factories, phone or telegraph networks, firearms, and possibly even steam railways, which seems very implausible. However, Mark Twain was writing in jest and did not expect us to take him all that seriously.

    2. Someone from a near futuristic setting has to build their own device and program it from scratch using just basic blueprints much like how Luke Skywalker had to build his own light saber. This seems like a stretch in our world but suppose that people have access to highly developed 3D printers or suppose that programming has evolved in such a way that it is even more DIY than what we have today. This also stretches credibility but in a fantasy setting it would be plausible, although this would still require some sort of computer.

    3. Someone develops a new smartphone and OS in the context of existing technology, much like how the iPhone improved on the Trio or Blackberry and the Samsung Galaxy or other Android phones were developed to compete with the iPhone. Perhaps the main character is the owner of a startup that develops a new device with a new operating system. This is possible, but with the use of development teams, existing components (Intel chip), and financing.

    4. Someone tinkering on their own builds some custom device by canabalizing components of several existing ones and then develops their own version of an OS for it. This seems possible but it would imply that they would be using existing components, as opposed to making everything from scratch.
     
  20. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    In that case, not just no, but 'hell no'.

    If we were talking the 60s then building a computer wouldn't be as much a problem because they were built that way, but as @ChickenFreak correctly points out, modern tech is assembled by machines because they are more precise at the scale we're talking for modern transistors.

    At the base layer, silicone, copper, maybe some gold thread, solder, transistors, resistors, maybe capacitors, lithium ion battery, and any combination of plastic, metal and glass.

    I've also said this already, but the radios are assigned numbers and internationally policed. The licences to obtain them are issued to companies, but not someone looking to tinker something custom. When you buy a phone the radio's number is logged to the transaction so the police can track it down to you, especially if you paid for it by card.

    The inventor of pizza did not invent bread, cheese or tomato sauce. They certainly did not discover yeast or basil either. The first is credited as the magherita, with the ingredients chosen for the colours of the Italian flag, then other combinations cane about as the popularity spread to satisfy different palettes.

    The vast, vast majority of human invention is not entirely from the ground up, it is either combining other existing things into something new or creating something to address the weaknesses of or compete with what already exists. A lot of software development is more like adding a new outer Russian doll to an existing set then a new object entirely. Processors are more powerful in that they can do now calculations but they haven't changed in the sense they still work in binary, it is the layers between it and the user that have made the increase in pace possible.

    It is easy to say that smart phones are a recent invention, but mobile phones were first developed during WWII. They became handheld in the 70s and common in the late 80s, smart phones being possible is primarily due advances in the fields surrounding the components, where they were getting smaller and more powerful. Computers of the 50s had no more processing power than a modern scientific calculator.

    I mentioned this as well, but hardware and software are two very specialist fields and both have copious specialties. Tell a software engineer to develop a new motherboard and he'd tell you to get a specialist in hardware and the same would happen if you told an electrical engineer to develop an OS.
     
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  21. Wolf Daemon

    Wolf Daemon Active Member

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    Tools aren't just hand tools. Did you never have woodshop as a kid or what? Or did you just not sign up for that class yet.

    And why would I get oil for a project when I could just get plastic because PLASTIC is a basic piece. And I know that everything in this world can be built by one man given time, knowledge, and tools. And that's a fact. Factories again only make a mass quantity of the items. Doesn't seem your brain is on right so until then anything you say is pretty much moot.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    So everything can be hand-crafted by a single person...except for the things that can't? Things like plastic? "Everything is X, except for the things that aren't X. That's a fact!"

    Yeah.

    Please get back to me after you have installed the 1.7 billion transistors in a hand-crafted Intel chip. Then, I'd like a hand-crafted DVD (remember, no DVD burners, unless you also hand-craft that yourself).

    However, your reversion to random insults makes it pretty clear that you know that you've lost the argument.
     
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  23. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    This isn't the first time for this guy.
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks for reminding me that I CAN just step right off the slippy-slidey track of a pointless argument.

    I really should set up an intermittent reminder on my computer: "Are you experiencing a problem that could be solved with the Ignore button?"
     
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  25. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    I couldn't facepalm to this hard enough.

    Computer Aided Design/Manufacturing is not exclusively for mass production, it's used for prototypes, because machines are capable of working at a scale that humans can't. Those 1.7 billion transistors that @ChickenFreak mentioned are on a piece of silicone about 1 square inch in size. That's why building them is known in the industry as microarchitecture. I severely doubt you could build something that small by hand without frying it with shorts unless you're capable of fitting a carving in the eye of a needle.

    By the way, when you resort to ad hominems, your argument is dead.
     
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