Our Vision, Mission, and Core Values as a Community

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Daniel, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. Dracon

    Dracon Contributor Contributor

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    Allow me to offer my perspective as a newer member of the forum. Hopefully I can help you out by telling you what attracted me to joining this one over the plethora of others.

    I seemed to fit in the same demographic that most others here seemed to fit into: those who are writing for enjoyment and looking to improve their writing rather than having grand publication designs. Not that there is anything wrong with the latter, but that I would have this constant support without feeling under pressure in any way I found important.

    Also, it seemed like a genuine and productive community. If somebody posts a poor snippet or excerpt, it's about "How do we improve this?" rather than actively look to knock people down just because they aren't as experienced a writer. I agree whole-heartedly with the vision of helping realise writers' goals and develop people as writers, whatever stepping stone they might occupy.

    I think the 'writing resources' are a good idea. There are often new threads that are posted when a similar thread answered/addressed them just weeks before, and so in all these small threads, potentially a trove of information and opinion is being diluted. Although good in theory, I'm not sure how well it would work in practice... There will always be people who either wouldn't go to the pinned resources and post a new thread anyway, or their story might be just slightly unique in a way to need addressing separately.
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Okay, so assuming people want these writing resources and assuming there are enough actual facts to make them possible... the next issue that comes to mind is the work involved. I agree that these resources would need to be maintained and curated, hopefully by someone who's knowledgeable enough in the field to curate well - ie. to know what information actually is a fact, what opinions are well-supported, and to tactfully make the difference between the two clear. This sounds like a lot of work, to me. Are you willing to do it yourself, or are you planning to recruit others?

    I know I'm sounding pretty negative in this thread - sorry! I don't mean to be discouraging. I'm just trying to think it all through and when my thoughts run into an issue I post about it.
     
  3. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I joined this forum several years ago, after trawling around looking at other forums as well. I just wanted to hang out with other people who like to write and read. This forum won hands-down because it's easy to use. It looks good. It isn't cluttered. (Unlike the Water Cooler one which I did join, but never use because I can't figure out how to get to the bits I want.)

    As I began to spend time here I began to get to know people, to make friends, to find folks who like the same things I do, etc. I also got to know many people whose ideas and mine don't always agree, but they are people whom I respect and enjoy hobnobbing with.

    I have always appreciated the Mods, who really do an excellent job keeping the trollish crap to a minimum. Nobody gets to disrupt the calm around here for very long, before knuckles get rapped or the trap door whaps open....

    There are so many age groups here (although I suspect most are younger than me, which isn't unusual these days.) It's fun to see what other people enjoy writing about. There are many parts of the forum I never visit, but that's not a problem. One part doesn't get in the way of another part. I do believe there's something here for everybody. And the forum is much larger than it looks. Which is good. I love a simple interface with lots under the hood.

    I agree with @ChickenFreak and @Tenderiser that I don't want this to become a publishing site. Publishing is obviously important to many writers, and I wouldn't object to that section being developed more, if that's what folks want. But I wouldn't want the focus of the site to change. Writing is what we're all here for. What we want to do with our writing differs a great deal from person to person.

    I don't see this as primarily a resource site either, although specific questions can get answered from time to time. And we do have a 'resource' section which might prove useful for certain topics. However, the strength of this site is the interaction between members. There are books out there on how to write, how to do research, etc, which can be found via a good google or a trawl around Amazon. This site is more for discussion and support.

    I'm pretty happy with the way things are at the moment.
     
  4. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Okay, a more positive suggestion on how to make this site more oriented toward supporting writing goals...

    I'd love it if there was a more writing-oriented fact sheet available for each member. I would say I know the genre/writing goals of about... maybe five or ten members? Out of probably thirty or forty members I'd recognize by name/avatar. So there are a lot of people who are fairly active on this site for whom I have no idea of their writing activities. I question whether some members are writing at all, other than what they post here.

    I'd love to learn more about what people are writing, what stages they're at, etc. Some people mention that stuff in their intro posts, others don't. Some people post it on their "Information" page, others don't. I don't think it's a good idea to make it mandatory to share all that information, but I think it would be nice if sharing were encouraged, at least.
     
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  5. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    I'll go against the grain... I'd like there to be more of an emphasis on publishing.

    I think the forum should be more inviting to editors, agents and the like, even invite a guest editor every once in awhile. If you aspire to be a professional, you ought to have such people in your orbit.
     
  6. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    The above through the slightly lower above. This is a very good Writing Forum. It's probably got an overly large social forum attached, but that's actually useful too. I don't want to call anyone out, or shame any particular personal... thing, but some of the things I've read in The Lounge have given me considerable insight into how people different from me (long list, let's go with women, non-gender binary, and childowners as a random sample) view the world. Would I ever, ever, consider writing a story that included someone who wants to have children?

    God I hope not, but I'm a horror writer, I've got to keep my mind open.

    @Daniel's original post and mission statement say that the site's goal is:

    To narrow that focus to publication would risk leaving those who simply want to learn to tell a good story out in the cold. Heinlein said that specialization was for insects, but in most cases, specialization is a good thing. Just as I buy my running and formal shoes from different manufacturers, if I ever beat my stories on the forge of WF to the point that I'm ready to publish, it won't kill me to look for additional advice on how to do so elsewhere.

    To restate what I said earlier, I'm quite happy with the way this site is run. The above post, however, brings to mind something I thought of earlier that might make it run better: Make a New Member Introduction post mandatory before people are allowed to post elsewhere. It would make it easier for mods to find the chaff, and give everyone a little bit better idea of where new folks were coming from and planning on going.

    However, this falls into the software category, so if the boss(es) are cackling right now at the impossibility, I'm not surprised.
     
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  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, I like that idea. If it were semi-mandatory ...in other words, a form that new members need to fill out ...it might help remove the spammers before they get started ...or am I being naieve? I don't think anybody should be required to give out personal information of any kind, but it wouldn't hurt to give people a chance to answer certain questions about their writing itself. If we're all writers or wannabe writers here, that shouldn't be too hard to produce. It would be fun to read as well.

    I think it's always interesting to learn who is writing in English as their second (or more) language. In fact, there are some writers here who are so good at doing just that, they blend in perfectly. Others, whose writing seems clumsy or SPAG-error-ridden at first glance, might be writing in a new language. I think it would help us to know if that's the case.

    Just one idea of a question to ask.
     
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  8. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    One of my other hobbies is radio control cars. I joined a forum some time ago that had a question: "What was your first RC car?" I put the name of the appropriate toy in the box, and was admitted as a new member. Perhaps having a security question of "Who is your favorite author?" crosschecked against... well, there's got to be a reference there somewhere, would weed out the bot spammers. Again, software stuff, dunno how hard it is.
     
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  9. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Going with @jannert's idea ('factsheet'), what I personally would very much like to know is who writes in what genre, but finding this litte fact is pretty much given to random chance. Some new members post it in their intro post, some don't. Some have stuck around too long and assume that everyone knows. Well - I don't (and I consider myself still a newbie somewhat).

    Yet writing is a continued learning process, and as newly registered, budding writers, we might start with one genre and one narrative style/distance but move on to something else entirely when we get more confidence, or when the next story demands it. So this 'questionary' would have to be easy to update. Maybe the personal information page?

    I know that I'd like to fill out 'writing related' questions even if I am rather hesitant to give out personal information. But in a writing forum they are perfectly reasonable and it would help everyone connect in my personal opinion. Maybe it would cut down on the hesitancy to PM a member you haven't had prior contact with (I think this is especially a concern for new members). Sure, the forum discussions were valuable, but in the end conversations were what prompted me to stay with WF, more than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  10. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I love the idea of a 'fact sheet', or at least more writing-related fields on people's profiles.
     
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  11. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    So here are my thoughts on the 'factsheet'. I'll put it in 'Spoilers' tag to not get people sidetracked from the purpose of this thread.

    ---------
    Writing current WIP

    Type (Novel, Short stories, Poetry,..)?
    Standalone or Series?
    Genre?
    Draft/# of Edit?
    Words currently written? (maybe percentage bar?)
    Narrative distance?

    Short description/summary (limited to a certain number of words). I don't suggest keeping it as short as a tagline (because that's just impossible *g*), but maybe something around 600 words?

    --------------
    General questions

    Experience in other Genres?
    Experience in other narrative distances?
    Writing in native tongue?

    How long ago started writing generally?
    Writing for job or hobby? Both?

    Finished novels?
    Published novels? (Genres)

    --------------
    The above are the things which I just thought off the top of my head.

    Going with this idea of a 'factsheet' - why not include an 'author's page' while you're about it? if you can click 'published', why not give a link to the publisher, buying venue,..? Maybe there is such a thing already, but if so it's well hidden ;)

    Further thoughts - maybe unlock it when the new member makes the grade of 20 posts? It would cut down on spambots leaving links.

    Further thoughts - second-tier: If you make a grade, (ie. going from new member to member) why not get an automated message that informs you about the changed status? In this message you can include the information about the 'Writer's Page' and the 'Author's Page'. I am envisioning that there's a further tab on the member's profile and when clicked and the rights to edit are not there, a message would say something like 'This section will be unlocked when your status changes to Member'. When the status is there, it'd be eligible to edit (and maybe customize? Dare I write it?).

    Further thoughts - third-tier: You'd have to decide if each member can decide who's going to be able to view his/her 'Writer's Page' and 'Author's Page' (my preferrance! i.e. Members, New Members and Members, Every visitor), or if new members are generally eligible to view them.
     
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  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I liked a lot of these. However, I think it would be important to expect new members to fill out the sheet BEFORE they start making posts, etc. That way, if you're a spammer or a troll, you'll need to come up with a credible reason for being here in the first place.

    I would say make a few questions less 'easy' to fill out. Not just a list of genres or yes/no answers, but something that involves actually writing. I've seen lots of members introducing themselves by explaining why they write and what they write, or what they'd like to write and why. I'd like to see that sort of post from all new members, rather than a Q/A format. Emphasis on the 'why' rather than the 'what.' Spammers will struggle with that one, and so will some trolls. (Some trolls will be very good at this, so it's their subsequent behaviour that will 'out' them.)

    I do think it would also be instructive to learn how far along in the process people have gone. Have they started? Have they progressed beyond page one? Have they finished a first draft? Are they still editing? Have they finished editing? Are they published? And etc.

    Maybe also a notion of what they feel their particular writing issues are. Lack of time/space to write? SPAG problems? Organisational problems? It would be good to learn how people view their writing activities.

    Of course things will change, so this should be editable like most of the rest of the forum. However, I think it should be a pre-requirement for joining up. It would help us get to know about the new writers, and it will certainly make it difficult for spammers to join in the first place. I wouldn't like to see it be too intricate or off-putting. Maybe only around four topics, but ones that require a person to actually write something about their writing, rather than just tick off answers to specific questions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  13. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    My God, I knew my sense of humour was not mainstream, but I did not expect to facilitate a whole new entry system.
     
  14. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

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    For those of you worried I want to turn us into a publishing site - that's not my intent. I've used publishing as an example because it is a topic I'm personally interested in, and because it is the outer reach of what I think our site should encompass. While I would enjoy more discussion on the topic, I'm certainly not going to try to force it. I think my real "vision of my vision" is misinterpreted in that regard.

    I simply want the community at WF to grow stronger and truly help our members grow as writer's by incorporating whatever we can into making it easier for writers to pursue and achieve their goals. I want WF to be a tool that helps enable members of our community, one that continues to grow, keeping and attract new members, and promoting valuable discussions. I guess what I really need help with us understanding the main goals of most of our members.

    Stop apologizing. :p Realism is always appreciated. I don't intent to fight an uphill battle to create a resource that no one wants or will use or has interest in helping maintain. What I would like to do is identify clear areas where there may be a gap in our ability to help new and intermediate writers, and help fill that gap.

    I do intend to do it myself if I can identify specific areas I'm convinced are beneficial to our members. I consider myself at least above average on compiling research and curating information. Maintenance is the main challenge I would really need help on, though others are certainly welcome to help throughout the process.

    The important part is identify exactly what resources would actually benefit the members of WF, and I recognize that.

    This is a really, really good idea, and definitely something I will work on implementing. It's a shame it doesn't exist already. Implementing this idea - some form of it further described in the posts above this one - could really help in many ways.

    @jannert, I agree that it's best to have at least some of the writing-related questions filled out upon registration. They wouldn't be mandatory, except maybe one question.

    I also like the idea of using it as an anti-spam filter, but the selection of that question is important if it's to work. Generally it has to be a question that is objective and not subjective. I'm not sure what question would really work for this. Generally it should be something like "who wrote Carrie." If it's a question like "what genre do you write", the user might be flagged as a bot if their answer is an obscure genre not on the list. If it's a "free writing" type question where the users writes a custom answer, there's no real way to determine if it's a bot unless all new member registrations are moderated.

    @ChickenFreak I appreciate your last response. It helped put things a little more in perspective.
     
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  15. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    After spending about 6-7 months on my first novel,
    I went looking for help. And this place was the first
    to pop up in my search, so I checked it out for a while.
    Found it easy to navigate, and the community seemed
    pleasant and helpful (and still are :) ).

    I too still believe this after spending quite a bit of time
    here, learning about things I had not previously thought
    of. Though I do spend a fair amount of time procrastinating
    when I should be writing, but I try to be helpful in some
    capacity or another. (I really should be writing though.) :p
     
  16. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

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    I hope that through the subsequent discussion in this thread it became clear that I'm not trying to create drastic change, I'm not trying to turn us into a professionals only/publishing/AW-alternative, and that I have no intention of forcing informational tools or resources that no one will use.

    I realize our forum is composed primarily of new and intermediate creative writers. Our vision is to enable the members of our community. As members of this community, I think most of us can agree that enabling the members of our community to achieve their goals is a good thing. I want to encourage forum discussions and relationship that help our members understand and achieve their goals.

    I could use some help in understanding the most common writing goals of our members. If anyone wants to chime in on this topic, here or via PM, please do. (The informational guides and tools discussed earlier are only in cases where there's a clear need in situations where these changes would help members of our community better achieve specific goals).

    In would like to restart this discussion and bring it back to the discussion of community core values.

    Ensuring that we - as a forum community - known and understand our community core values is important, because it encourages discussion and relationships that are friendly, helpful, collaborative, and key to a healthy community. Whether we identify these values or not, I suspect they exist presently, unspoken in our culture.

    In knowing, understanding, and agreeing upon essential community core values, we can promote them as a community, which in turn, will strengthen our community. It will ensure that those core values grow stronger. It will enable the moderator team and I to ensure our policies and rules aren't harmful but are in the best interest of the community. As long as these core values are in line with the long-term goal of enabling our members, it will help us make that possible in the pursuit of our vision.

    I do have a few ideas of what I think our core values should be, but I'd like to hear from you - especially those of you who've already been active in this thread - on what you believe our common values already are and what values you think promote a healthy community.

    A good starting point. Which values do you think are common, as evidenced by our culture?
     
  17. truthbeckons

    truthbeckons Active Member

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    I hope you don't mind me commenting on this discussion more than a month after the last post. But I found this really interesting as a relatively new member, and I had a thought to share, if you're still thinking about the possibilities of creating more resources here, since it sounds like the discussion ended while you were still interested in pursuing it.

    This really appeals to me, although it's obviously a lot of work.

    There is a ton of useful information buried in old threads here, mixed up in long, messy conversations and debates, and for someone willing to put in the work, a pretty great wiki-style resource could be distilled from those threads.

    An immediate and reasonable objection to this idea was the obvious lack of a "consensus" that emerges. But I don't see that as a problem. It's just as easy to summarise the differences of opinion, to write a wiki page that says "There are two schools of thought on this" or "This is generally approached in one of three ways" and then give an overview of them. When you get down to it, there's often only a couple of substantially different viewpoints, and it's all useful to understand.

    For one example, I just posted my two cents in the long-running thread about italicising thoughts. That thread's been picked up several times since it was started in 2010, and there's been a back-and-forth about style preferences and technical correctness for 48 pages. But even though it's so long and occasionally heated, you can summarise the main opinions there quite usefully: italicisation is simple and direct, a basic technique that's not strictly necessary, but it makes more sense to some people and it's a technically valid style. Others think it's more literary to have thoughts weave into narration itself, and not require what ChickenFreak called a "typographical highlighter". So you have two main opinions there, and they align generally with two broad categories of style/mode. You can explain why authors use one or the other without there being a consensus on which is "correct". And that thread's full of other tips on the effect of (if not the correctness of) writing thoughts out in third vs first person, present vs. past tense, etc.

    Basically, even when people reasonably disagree with each other, they still provide lots of useful information. Often the fact that they disagree means that they explain their reasoning more thoroughly than if they took it for granted. So there's excellent raw material in these threads for writing informative guides that touch on different perspectives and help people find the advice that fits their particular situation. (Not to mention there are quotes you can take where people have explained specific concepts excellently already.)

    If you defined a scope for the information you wanted to collect, and put in/recruited the time and work, you could have something very useful.

    So I think the two real considerations are A) is there anyone willing to do all this work of sorting through threads, not just locating but also summarising and organising the information, according to a specific vision of the resource being created? and B) how much would people appreciate and make use of the resource? I can say for myself that I'm interested in both. Anyway, I think these are the important questions to ask about the idea.

    Are people interested in having these resources? Would they be more interested if you created a mini proof-of-concept, maybe? (We don't always know what we'd like to have until we see it, after all.) You wouldn't want to waste an effort like that if the interest's not there. But if you're passionate about this idea, it could be fantastic. That's all I wanted to say.


    To answer your question of core values, the suggestions already made by Arcadeus summarise everything great about this place that I've seen since I came here, and I couldn't think of anything to add, other than to emphasise how practical the workshopping here is: members aren't here just to be nice to each other, they're also here to help each other develop as writers. I'd focus on the idea of this really being a "constructive" environment.
     
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  18. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    @Daniel and @truthbeckons

    Just came back to this thread and saw both of your (recent?) posts. Thinking a bit about both of them together.

    One thing I'd like to add to Daniel's list (although it will muck up the W-R-I-T-E thing :) ) is Solving common writing problems. Common questions like : How do I make a character likeable? The ways to a solution are many, and questions like this get asked many times in many different ways by many different people on many different threads! We often end up re-inventing the wheel, to some extent. It's warming to be personal, and help particular writers solve their particular issues at the moment they are needing help—however, there are also many common approaches to this kind of problem.

    Which brings me to the excellent post I just saw this morning from TruthBeckons, and I thought of a possible link between the two posts. What about a FAQ-like section, where members can contribute thoughts or working methods or links that deal with a common problem WITHOUT it turning into ANY kind of a debate? In other words, nobody responds to what another person says on that thread. Just give your thoughts on what works for you when you encounter that problem—and stop? In other words, this will be an 'ideas-only' section, where members can browse, to see if anything helps them with their own issues, and /or make a contribution as to a method they use themselves.

    The problem could arise that people might duplicate methods. Two or more members might favour the same kind of solution, and the thread might become too repetitive to be useful. But ...worth a try?

    Debates over the issues can carry on as they do at the moment, on individual threads. This approach won't shut anybody down. It will just provide an extra 'service,' so to speak, from members to other members. A help section that can be accessed quickly.

    I love TruthBeckons 's idea about trawling through the threads to unearth long-buried gems of wisdom to add to our resources, but truthfully that's a lot more work than it looks, on the surface. If somebody wants to do it, fair enough. But. This forum has been around for many years. I know I don't have that kind of time and dedication, and I don't imagine too many others do either. If they do, though, it's a great idea.
     
  19. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I think this is worth more discussion. This is supposed to be a personal forum. Members grow together. Etc. Etc. This means understanding what people are working on. Where they are in writing. It might also pressure some stagnating members to get a move on in their own writing.
     
  20. OJB

    OJB A Mean Old Man Contributor

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    A thousand words a day keeps the Writing Dr. Away.
     
  21. tatterjack

    tatterjack Member

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    Vision statement
    'for an active, engage, and collaborative creative writing community.' - perhaps change 'engage' to 'engaged'.
     
  22. tatterjack

    tatterjack Member

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    Vision statement
    'for an active, engage, and collaborative creative writing community.' - perhaps change 'engage' to 'engaged'.
     
  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    or engaging ... either way that's gotta be a typo
     
  24. tatterjack

    tatterjack Member

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    I hate repeating myself especially when it's not me doing it.
     
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  25. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I hate repeating myself especially when it's not me doing it.
     
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