1. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    Love interests and all that jazz

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Pinkymcfiddle, Feb 24, 2017.

    I am a (predominantly) straight male writing a female character. She was meant to be one of three, but it turned out I just liked her the best due to... reasons. There was no intention for there to be any love interests, it was supposed to be pure action... almost anti-the mindless love interest you usually see as a sub-plot.

    Now, obviously as a fellah, my lead character is written a little more male than most women I know; and by that I mean the frank differences, she gets stuck in rather than letting others do so on her behalf (physical capabilities allow this because... backstory).

    So when it comes to love interests, I am writing from the POV of a straight fellah, and- lo and behold- the love interests tend to be female. So it comes down to the simple crux of the matter, is that male gaze? Should I lose any (weak) romantic sub-plot? She could quite easily be asexual.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Contributor

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    Not sure what you mean by "she gets stuck in rather than letting others do so on her behalf," but I'm thinking you mean she solves her own problems? That's not just a guy thing--I know quite a number of women who aren't afraid to solve their own problems, so if you're worried about that aspect making her too masculine, be at peace. What you need to look out for is making her unlikable and unbelievable as a woman. I've seen too many "strong women" in TV and in books that are so proud of themselves they made me want to throw up. People seem to get "strong" confused with "elitist" with women. A woman can be strong and humble and feminine at the same time and *gasp!* she can have emotional troubles, too. We're women, not inhuman (unless you're not writing about a human!).

    If you're worried about male gaze simply because there's a straight romantic interest, well from my googling, "male gaze" happens when a woman is portrayed as basically just an object for a man, so if you have the POV character respect the female character, and make the female character more than just a damsel in distress (though I do love those stories, myself), I don't think you'll run into this problem.
     
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  3. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    So I & my best friend are both female.

    When it comes to liking men, she tends to make herself really pretty, laugh and blush at everything they say, and just gaze at them longingly with her big center-of-the-flame blue eyes.

    I tend to try to make myself presentable/prettier, go up to them, and tell them I like them and hopefully we can hangout more & see if it goes anywhere.

    When it comes to confrontations, she tends to keep it to herself, share her true feelings to me and our other intimate friend, and then engage in passive aggressive warfare

    When it comes to confrontations, I tend to be upfront & direct, and I much prefer a fistfight to a catfight. My issue is I wasn't quite so good at spotting passive aggressive warfare early on—so even though I'd be direct and ask if they had a beef with me, I'd just be confused when they'd say "no, oh no, not at all" then pull underhanded tactics because they really didn't like me. I'm better at recognizing it now though.

    When it comes to being harassed or stalked or groped or whatnot, she goes limp deer-in-the-headlights, can't find her voice or a way to voice her dissent. She tends to be victimized frequently, unless I or are male friends step in protectively (which is often).

    With exception of one instance, I usually am vocal & loud and often get physical in retaliation.

    I'm a bit stronger than the average girl because I grew up with ranch work, and I'm a bit more aggressive or upfront cause I was much closer in age to my brother than my sister. And my brother loved to pummel me when we grew up, so I'm pretty hardy.

    But I love lacey dresses & curly tresses, I love the ideas of balls & masquerades, I adore Jane Austen novels, and a whole bunch of "stereotypical" girl things. I just also like racing dirt bikes in the desert, and watching action, shoot-em-up flicks devoid of romantic subplots and to go airsofting then laugh & compare the welts & bruise sizes after.

    I'm no less a girl than my best friend. (And actually my best friend also loves racing motorcycles and playing paintball—yeah, we have overlap). I tend to be considered masculine in a lot of ways, but I'm also crazy hyper feminine in others.

    And I have other girl friends that have a variety of reactions & likes & personality traits and characteristics who land anywhere on the "girly" spectrum depending on the specific category in question. Same with "manly" traits & instincts.

    And that's normal. It's not an exact science—it's just personalities & circumstances. Masculinity & feminity aren't all or nothing—definitely a wide & varied spectrum

    There's nothing wrong with a straight male writing a female love interest, same as it's fine for a straight female author to write a male love interest. Or a bisexual/romantic. Or a homosexual/romantic. Anyone can write anyone (otherwise we authors would be severely limited if like can only write like). Just don't write them as characitures or two-dimensional stereotypes. Write good characters regardless. Same work you'd put into any single character should apply across the board, no matter the sex, gender identity, orientation, ethnicity, et cetera.
     
  4. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    I literally mean physically. There is an obvious difference between the average male and female physically, and because of some genetic engineering background (very soft sci-fi) she is physically capable of standing toe to toe with many male characters.
     
  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    So where do your concerns about the male gaze come into it?

    (And, on a possibly related note - be careful about writing your characters based on "average" men or women. It sounds like you're writing a woman who isn't average--so write that character as she is, rather than worrying about others as she isn't.)

    ETA: Oh, are you saying that she's a lesbian? And you're worried that you've made her gay because YOU are attracted to women, so you're writing her as attracted to women?
     
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  6. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    Basically, I didn't want that sort of "Salt" situation where you see Angelina Jolie ineffectually swatting people twice her size in the chest, and them inexplicably falling over. She is going to be on the psychopathic end of the scale (in the everyday work-going, family-rearing psychopath sense of the word- not the Silence of the Lambs version); she'll just be a little cold and find it a little difficult to relate to others, but there will be a fundamental sense of right and wrong, even if for selfish reasons. I should add that she is somewhat of an audience surrogate, and there are, perhaps stronger supporting characters.

    the ETA is exactly my question...
     
  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think it's automatically male gaze for you to write a lesbian. I mean, it's putting a bit more of yourself into the character than may always be advisable, but I don't think it's a big deal if you do it now and then.

    I write a lot of characters that love animals. I love animals. I don't think I'm cheating or being disrespectful--I'm just putting some of myself into my characters.
     
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  8. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    I too am a straight guy who sort of ended up accidentally writing romance exclusively from female points of view. I don't think writing lesbians is a by definition gratuitous but it can be. I have done it but only because the book is set in a specifically all female environment with an almost all female cast (the only male characters are the couples fathers). And, frankly, it was somewhat less interesting to write than I initially hoped it would be, which in this case means it just wasn't as sexy to write as I had thought. Perhaps that's something in the back of my head saying "for the love of god don't make this icky" or it's because I have weird and complicated personal issues (always a possibility) but it didn't just click with me the way that writing straight romance did and I won't be doing it again, at least not without specific reasons.

    In the end what you need to do is what you should do with everything; speak to the truth of the character. Is she actually gay? Because she can be very close with other women without being gay. They can share an intimate moment or help her deal with whatever character developing things she's going through without being a love interest. And, of course, if the character just isn't in the market for any fondling of any persuasion then again, drop it. Is she is gay and is in the market then by all means you can do it. But it's an action book, you know? It's really not required. In fact I think it'll be better is it's not a romantic interest that gets kidnapped or helps her stop having nightmares about the people she's killed.

    Ask yourself if the romance fits the character. If so it's not gratuitous by definition. If it is, then maybe it is.

    Oh and, one guy to another; if you do your job right there is no such thing as 'written a bit more male'. Look to the core human experience that you can draw from to inform her character; look to greif and loss and sadness. These are things that all people experience. Inform her from the things that you do know, that you viscerally feel. If you can do that you can write some really girly girls and have it read just perfectly. From everyone who's read my first romance I get one constant piece of praise; that the lead character who is a fifteen year old girl has a really strong, believable voice. And she was written by a weird beardy guy with a ponytail.
     
  9. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    As it is unfolding at the moment; there is a strong platonic relationship between the female MC and an older male (from both sides- he is your cockney gentlemen). The attraction is to his daughter, in that she has many of the same characteristics as him; and she is a little inept, which brings out the protector in our MC. It is not sexual, it is more about companionship- so perhaps it is just a blurred boundary between friendship and something romantic- and perhaps more a platonic love for her father that leads her to want to experience intimacy with that DNA. It is a small part of the story; it won't be sexual because that is not a direction the story suits.

    When I said "a bit more male" this might have been a poor turn of phrase. I merely mean that she has the physical capabilities that enable her to react in a more physically "male" manner, where otherwise that may not be feasible. In simple terms, Nunes and McGreggor may not be far apart in terms of weight categories, but I know who I'd be more likely to beat.
     
  10. Whitefire_Nomura

    Whitefire_Nomura Member

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    Unfortunately, I am completely lost on what you are asking but I will take a wild stab at it.
    First theory of what you're asking) If you're asking about there is a problem with her being the sterotypical woman, then Just have her have her own personality. Not all women have to fit a certain criteria to be considered a woman.

    Second Theory of what you're asking) If you're asking what to do about a love relationship between her and someone else but it doesn't fit the story, Then you could always just write around it, or use it to enhance a side slot.

    Third Theory of what you're asking) If you've developed this fictional character and as a "straight-male" have fallen in love with her, then simply remind yourself that she is a fictional character. Or go on to be the first to write a fan fic of your story. Fan Fics are pretty popular and may get your story more notice. ^.^

    Hope one of these answers helps?
     
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  11. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Oh don't worry about making her have a little more masculinity in that sense; in the action scene every character of any gender is going to be physically capable beyond the realms of reality. The audience will suspend disbelief for that. They want to see her do action stuff so you don't have a problem there.

    As for the romance side; if it's not going to be sexual I'd personally make it entirely platonic or unresolved sexual tension instead of directly romantic. I like the idea that she has a motherly/big sisterly love for the other girl; that she's protective of her and very driven to save her if the plot needs it but that otherwise isn't commented on. That's something that the audience can appreciate but without needing to deviate away from the plot. Action heros are by definition protective and that strand of the plot just gives you another way to express that in a more tender and human way and stopping short of romance means you don't need to give it screen time. It lets you show another side of the lead characters without compromising on the core narrative.
     
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  12. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    But the crux is that she is leaning towards the psychopathic end of the spectrum... so she is equally driven by an irritation that she has been shown up or out-played. There is a recognition as to who her allies were, even if they leave her on the potentially weaker side- but no act is unselfish. That is central to the character. The platonic relationship... he plays her (cat and mouse investigation), she is amused by it.
     
  13. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    Just write it the way you would for a dude, just make it more emotional
    and a little less about the physical.
    At least that is what I did with my love int. sub-plot. :)
     
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  14. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Psychopaths don't love anyone. They can fake it, but they don't feel anything for other people. That's why they can fillet them so effectively. And, of course, we need butchers as well as shepherds; there's all kinds of interesting theories about psychopaths unsung contribution to various things. But if she feels connected to other people she's not a straight up psycho and in that case it's ok to show a more human side to her. That she mostly is all kill and no frills doesn't means that that's the only side of her you should show. In fact it then speaks more to the value of the relationship that she seems to make an exception for her and shows a more normal side. I think it's important to at least retain hints of that; not necessarily a romance but something to show another side of her for a moment.

    Think about Sarah Conner in Terminator 2; probably the best action girl ever created. She is so driven, so utterly certain that she can beat all the robots in the world by herself. If anything she is more ruthless than the emotionless Arnie. The Terminator himself will kill if he is told to, but he's not Machiavellian like she is. Sarah Conner heads out to just straight up murder Miles Dyson and his family who is no direct threat to her or John; no hesitation, no remorse. When she gets stopped she's not ashamed; she's angry. But she's not a psychopath. Because all of this is for John and for the rest of humanity. That's what drives her. She's not a great mum. But she loves John. She expresses it weirdly but you can see it in her, it's the reason why she's so focused on making him a leader and a fighter. She'd die for him, but not for anyone else. That's important. And it's what makes her sympathetic, even though we only see these little flashes of her maternal side. She's an anti-hero, definitely, ruthless as hell, a stone cold killer. But her son is everything to her. And that's why she's such a good character. Because it only takes a little tiny taste of her nurturing, caring, protective side to round her out and make her totally understandable, even if you've never see the first movie.

    It's important for characters to show other sides of themselves; the problem is doing that in a way that takes us away from the rest of the book. For this kind of character you just need little hints.
     
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  15. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    I don't strictly agree. I saw an in depth and incredibly candid interview with David James, the former England goalkeeper, who is a certified psychopath. He won the FA cup with his team, and the crowd invaded the pitch, and all his team mates were going crazy, and he stated that he felt nothing, he simply did not understand what all the fuss was about. He just wanted to go and have a shower and piss off home. This interview was specifically about his psychopathy, and he underwent various tests and he was shown to lack empathy. Yet, he described, and his brain scans would indicate intense love for his wife and child. I think we are a little simplistic when we try to describe psychopaths. As with most things in life, they sit somewhere on a sliding scale.
     
  16. S A Lee

    S A Lee Contributor Contributor

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    Honestly, my initial impression was that the character we're talking about here is a tomboy, I'm demi-hetero, female, and a tomboy that works in a builder's warehouse. If something is within my physical capabilities I get stuck in (I'm the only girl in my warehouse who'll pick up a 25kg jackhammer, if only long enough to put it on a trolley or pass it to a customer) and wearing foundation makes me feel like I've put on clown makeup.

    I think you're overthinking this 'male gaze' stuff.

    That aside, I think you seem to have a good idea of what it is you want this character to be.
     
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  17. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Contributor

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    Are you worried your maleness will shine through, so you'd want to nip it from the bud and write her in a way no reader ever would get "suspicious" and think she's been written by a dude?

    I'm not sure about the male gaze thing. I thought it's really an "attracted-to-women" gaze and not exclusively male. I mean, lesbians objectify women too, right? But of course it's possible straight men and gay women find different things attractive or sexy simply because the mechanics when it comes to sex are different. And, I don't know, maybe lesbians aren't as obsessed with boobs 'cause they live with theirs 24/7 so it gets kinda old. :D

    My hubby has written a bunch of lesbian characters (there's bound to be one in every story) and I just leave it for him to write the sexuality related stuff 'cause it's still more in his territory than mine. I suppose the characters have come out okay, and I only give feedback on the way he generally handles a female character, not that I'm the sole purveyor of truth there either. I wrote a gay guy to one story, and I guess I based the depiction of his sexuality on the way I had observed gay men see other men. Maybe you'll have to get a lesbian's opinion here. But I'm only talking about the sexual level here rather than romantic, and if you decide not to go down that road, I guess depicting love or emotional attachment is more of a character rather than gender question.

    I wouldn't worry too much about what you think are masculine traits since real-life women tend to be a mix in any case, as @NoGoodNobu detailed above. I too enjoy a few hobbies that are usually dominated men, combat sports and PC gaming in particular, and I listen to extreme metal rather than indie rock or pop. On the other hand, I wear my hair long and I'm not opposed to make-up or high heels, and I'm pretty softly spoken and "quiet", instead of loud and brash.
     
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