Mythology Inclusion vs Appropriation

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by ManOrAstroMan, Jun 9, 2016.

  1. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Sweetie, we already went through this. This discussion has been had. And if you're not even willing to articulate your argument more convincingly than just vomiting disdain, then frankly it's not even useful from the perspective of a political discussion.
     
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  2. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    I agree.
     
  3. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    Quick question: if you saw somebody walking down the street wearing a fake Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, and Purple Heart, would you find that insulting to the heroes who earned the real ones?

    What if you saw a show where the white characters were portrayed (by black actors in whiteface) as dimwitted buffoons who didn't even look human, and the black characters were contrasted from the white characters by portrayed as actual human beings?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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  5. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    The idea that some people should be respected as people, and that other people can be displayed as commodities, seem pretty analogous to the idea that some people should be respected as people, and that other people can be displayed as commodities.

    There are ways to write about other cultures in a way that tells the truth (that other people are human beings), and there are writers who don't want to perpetuate the lie (that some people are commodities) and who want to learn as much as possible about how to tell the truth instead. Why is "not wanting to lie" being treated as a bad thing? Shouldn't people want to tell the truth?
     
  6. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    In a broad sense, cultural appropriation in fiction is the idea that you shouldn't write about someone not of your race, sexuality, etc. at all (I just had a discussion last week with people who hold that view; see it a lot online). The analogy doesn't work well if that's the sense of cultural appropriation one means.

    As for being truthful, if you're writing fiction that takes place in the real world and reflects real cultures, yes you should do your research. If you're doing SF/F where you draw on real cultures to create fictional ones, ideas of truth don't make much sense.
     
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  7. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    We disagreed about the definition of cultural appropriation earlier in this thread, and I guess we can do it again? To me, cultural appropriation suggests a disrespectful, shallow engagement with the icons or symbols; so to me, it would be possible for someone to use ideas from a different culture without committing cultural appropriation.

    I'm not saying my definition is the only one or the best one. But we should make sure we're all talking about the same thing if we're going to rehash this argument.
     
  8. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    That actually sounds like a very specific sense of the word, and not a very common one.

    http://www.springhole.net/other/what-is-cultural-appropriation.htm , for example, both talks itself about how to tell stories involving other cultures without appropriating and also links to other sites talking about the same thing.
     
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  9. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    That's seems silly if people adhere too strictly to it. What the hell am I supposed to write about then? Heterosexual White dudes in their 30s?
     
  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I agree that it is silly, but there was a discussion about this among writers on Twitter last week, with one point of view by writers of color being that only they should be writing stories with characters of their ethnicity, otherwise already-privileged (read, white male) writers will not only have an overall advantage in the marketplace but will dislodge them from that niche as well.
     
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  11. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I have seen definitions like that as well, but I think the broader use I posed is more common than you think. Just look at the word "appropriation." The word appropriation has nothing to do with respect, fact-checking, or anything else. On its face it refers simply to taking something for one's own use.
     
  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yeah, I remember we discussed this. I think, as I said above, the definition I gave is more common than people think and more in line with the plain meaning of the term. But maybe I'm just associating with the wrong crowd :)
     
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  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    In the context of a fantasy story, would any of you consider any of these to be cultural appropriation (assuming I do not fall into any of the categories set forth below)?

    1. My character is black.
    2. My character is lesbian. She's the protagonist and "good."
    3. My character is lesbian. She's an unhinged nut the protagonist has to stop.
    4. My character is part of a society that practices bloodletting in the manner performed by the Maya. They have trappings of the Maya, but aren't Mayan. They're good and the rituals are sacred to them.
    5. My character is part of a society that practices bloodletting in the manner performed by the Maya. They have trappings of the Maya, but aren't Mayan. They're evil, and use blood rituals for nefarious purposes (whereas it was a sacred, legitimate cultural tradition among the Maya elite).
    6. My character belongs to a pre-technological tribe whose culture incorporates traditions of various north American native tribes to make this single fantasy tribe.
    7. Same as #6, but the tribe is portrayed negatively. They're the antagonists.
    8. Same as #6, but the members of the tribe exist as sort of noble savages that never existed in the real world?
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, two things - one, you can't really take a phrase apart like that and think it automatically adds clarity - the phrase as a phrase is important.

    And, two, if we did take it apart, I think "appropriation" does have an element of taking without permission or agreement, doesn't it? If I go to the store and buy something at a fair price, I don't say I've appropriated it.
     
  15. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    But aren't they supposed to be all diverse? How can you want more black characters but no white writers writing then? There's more white writers. It's just impractical.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
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  16. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yes, agreed with respect to point one.

    With respect to point two, you've come to an agreement with the merchant, who is presumably authorized to make that agreement with you and enter into the transaction. When it comes to cultures, who decides if my use is fair? What if 51% of the subject population objects to it? How about 49%? One person? All of them? And so on.
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think they'd also like to see more writers of color published as well, so that there aren't necessarily more white writers getting publishing contracts.
     
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  18. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    There are more white people in Western countries. By significant margins. If you want diversity the best thing is going to be people writing about it from an outside perspective. And gay characters, lord, there'd be almost none if we were the only ones allowed to write about us. Writing isn't an autobiography. People must write outside their own experience. That's where imagination and a little bit of research comes in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    That's what I think, too. But there's going to be someone, somewhere to object to it.
     
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  20. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Well that's just great. Either I'm an elitist, privileged douchebag that can't see humanity beyond the scope of White America, or I'm an oppressive, appropriating thief looking to get paid off of someone else's culture. Pick you poison!
     
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  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I agree, it's problematic, but... you're kinda shifting the discussion, I think. We were trying to decide what "appropriation" means, not whether it's reasonable/advisable to use the word in the context of cultures.

    So... if we agree that "appropriation" generally means taking something without permission or right, then we can move on to the finer points of the "cultural appropriation" issue.

    In which case... I don't think we're going to get anything black and white (figuratively speaking) on this issue. You're right, there's no panel of minority cultures in charge of deciding when cultural borrowing is acceptable; at the same time, there's no panel of punishment doling out jail time for those who cross a line. It's all going to be a judgement call.

    Ideally, I think, it would be the author/artist making the judgement - have I respectfully investigated this culture and am I confident that I'm borrowing their icons in an appropriate manner?
     
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  22. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I found this interview interesting when I heard it the other day. Seems appropriate for this thread.
     
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  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I'm pretty much on board with Shriver.
     
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  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I do that as well, if I'm writing something set in the real world and based on a real culture. For fantasy, I think it is different (see post #138 above, for example).
     
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  25. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    She has it exactly right. The problem with this issue like many politically charged one is right and left push each other to go more extreme to spite the other, and because the alternative attitude becomes demonized rationalizing extremity that should not be gone to in order to compensate for the percieved evil. And thus the right begins to become a bunch of ill-mouthed bastards and the left begins to be whiny controlling cunts.
     

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