A Major Loophole In the Law

[Blue Night]

mugen shiyo, I agree with your original post.

I’m a natural born citizen of the U.S. and I had to say the Pledge of Allegiance for 12 years.

And as you were saying, after all that, I made my own decision on what ideal means.

I can come up with a list of things I find arbitrary about our foreign and domestic affairs.

But I choose not to. I don’t want to start controversy either.

It was once said on our radio, “You’re either with us or you’re with the terrorist.”

Really?

A viewer stated, “Don’t invade Iraq.”

His response was, “You’re a Terrorist.”

Really?

It was Mike Ghallagher to be specific. 2002ish.

No, his voice was not the law of the land. But it sounded like it.

It wasn’t my voice.

I don’t pledge to such things.

[mammamaia]

i see what you mean now, mugen... you mean affirming your allegiance to your birth country officially, upon attaining legal majority, just as catholics 'officially' affirm their belief in their faith and 'swear' their 'loyalty' to the Church, in the rite of 'confirmation'...

the problem with that [in the us, at least] is to make it a law that all citizens of the country must do that could conflict with the freedoms guaranteed them in the constitution... and no one should be made to do such a thing on pain of some penalty... non-citizens seeking citizenship must do it, of course, as must all who assume public office and others, such as those in the military, etc...

but for all private citizens to be forced to do so would seriously infringe upon their right to dissent...

and in other countries, it could be [and certainly would , in despotic states] used to punish any who disagree with those in power...

[Cogito]

A mandatory declaration of allegiance is as meaningful as a contract entered into under duress.

[Jowettc]

I was wondering...the average person never swore themselves to the country or to it's laws. We are all drafted at birth into the country. I understand that doing this to an infant to a certain age where they are judged mature enough to make the decision is simplifying and agreeable, but shouldn't we be allowed to- say at eighteen- re-evaluate ourselves, our country, and all in between and decide whether we would pledge the rest of our lives to the country or not?

There are all very good reasons why this is principally the case:

1)The laws of the land are there to protect and serve it's citizens - not just any old random person who happens to sneak across their borders. If you are a citizen then you are given these rights. Illegal interlopers have other rights by international convention - or not, depending on which country you are in.

2)In order to get you from that lovely little swaddling babe to a fully fledged anarchist teenager, your government, and its taxpayers, have to devote a good deal of time, money and effort into you. Healthcare, education, wide open parks to play in, law and order to keep you safe, primary industry to make things for you to play with, imports and exports of playstations and PC's, technolgoical advancements to keep you hooked up to other teenage anarchists all over the globe not to mention the food that keeps you belly fed. This all costs money. Your government would like you to repay the debt thanks.

3)The demise of the successful. If anyone could 'up sticks' and move to any country they wanted, which one would they head for? They would head for the most successful one - that is usually implied by economics and standard of living. However...the most succesful country would begin to attract people, of all abilities or lack thereof, from all over the world. The population would rapidly swell with those that could provide benefit to the country and those that were only a drain on the resources. The succesful country would then find that it had more dependents than providers and the economy would rapidly begin hitting the sides of the toilet bowl as it spun into the sewer taking everyone along with it. Then the transients would move on to the next country and do the same..it would be like a plague of human locusts and the unsavory element of the human species would exploit it to their utmost advantage....see Hedgefund Manager.

4)There is no loophole in the law. If you desire to move country - you can. Millions of people all over the world do it every day - it's called immigration. I've done it. I live somewhere very far from where I grew up...and love it thanks very much. Luckily I had a skill that my chosen country needed so they let me in. I know others have not been so succesful. Nothing stops you from moving if you really want to...all it takes, like anything else in life, is a little effort.

Just for the record...I didn't get into my first or second choice country by the way. The first one had economic barriers of entry, and the second had skillset barriers of entry so there you go. As it happens I prefer where I am to the first and second one's anyway!

[Lightman]

You can renounce American citizenship.

[Gallowglass]

Complaining about this would be legitimate, if we didn't get a vote that enables us to change any that law we want, provided other people agree.

Major corporations are just a convenient excuse: granted governments shouldn't be influenced by them (or NGOs, or charities, or pollsters, or anyone but the people, for that matter) but overall their power is massively exaggerated. If they really did make law, I can think of a few pieces of legislation that would never have been pased. The anti-smoking law in the UK would never have been passed, or regulations on advertising fast food on children's television, to name but two.

If you think something isn't quite right, you have two options: leave, or change it. You have the tools to do both.

[James Berkley]

Wait a minute? Didn’t Mugen shiyo say in another thread that he was in the Navy for a while?
So in fact he had in the past swore allegiance so he can in no way be talking about himself and be telling the truth. Still I see no loophole or issue hear.

[mugen shiyo]

Wait a minute? Didn’t Mugen shiyo say in another thread that he was in the Navy for a while?
So in fact he had in the past swore allegiance so he can in no way be talking about himself and be telling the truth. Still I see no loophole or issue hear.

Yes, I was in the Navy No, I meant the average citizen. Thinking about the Navy is what prompted the question, though. I was thinking how in the Navy we had to do things that sort of curb over some areas of the Constitution and place us in a society of martial laws and traditions (for lack of a better term), all who are in have to apply because they swore to the terms in the contract...though I don't know how that holds with draftees... And so I then thought, well I never agreed to uphold the nations laws directly (or so I thought. I did not know about the driver's license thing) Am I really obliged to follow them if I never directly swore to them?

i see what you mean now, mugen... you mean affirming your allegiance to your birth country officially, upon attaining legal majority, just as catholics 'officially' affirm their belief in their faith and 'swear' their 'loyalty' to the Church, in the rite of 'confirmation'...

the problem with that [in the us, at least] is to make it a law that all citizens of the country must do that could conflict with the freedoms guaranteed them in the constitution... and no one should be made to do such a thing on pain of some penalty... non-citizens seeking citizenship must do it, of course, as must all who assume public office and others, such as those in the military, etc...

but for all private citizens to be forced to do so would seriously infringe upon their right to dissent...

and in other countries, it could be [and certainly would , in despotic states] used to punish any who disagree with those in power...

Oh, not a forced declaration of anything. Rather, I was just wondering on our exact status as citizens sworn under the law and whether it was valid. An affirmation at 1 or whatever, even to me when I said it, sounds very confusing and bound to cause all sorts of problems but it was one of the only ways I had to elaborate on what I was trying to say. Seems like I confused more than elaborated though, lol.

A mandatory declaration of allegiance is as meaningful as a contract entered into under duress.

Too true.

[mugen shiyo]

Complaining about this would be legitimate, if we didn't get a vote that enables us to change any that law we want, provided other people agree.

Major corporations are just a convenient excuse: granted governments shouldn't be influenced by them (or NGOs, or charities, or pollsters, or anyone but the people, for that matter) but overall their power is massively exaggerated. If they really did make law, I can think of a few pieces of legislation that would never have been pased. The anti-smoking law in the UK would never have been passed, or regulations on advertising fast food on children's television, to name but two.

If you think something isn't quite right, you have two options: leave, or change it. You have the tools to do both.

Oh my...

Well, what I say is hardly fact but see it like this. The government is supposed to rule the country, but the country needs money. The government does things like institute taxes and such but it's not enough. The government borrows money from the private sector. Has been doing so for a very long time. Not only our country, all countries. I doubt there is a country anywhere that is truly out of debt. I think countries are literally trading in debt. What happens when you owe the bank? What happens when a country owes a bank? You are either declared bankrupt or you start forking over collateral. What can the government fork over as collateral to the private sector?

In my opinion only, I think we are living in times where the economy has replaced the government as the functioning authority. Has done so for sometime now since the middle ages. They now simply come into the forefront instead of in the background.

[cruciFICTION]

I'm coming back to this somewhat late. I suggest you read Jennifer Government by Maxx Barry. He's an Australian author (from Melbourne) and Jennifer Government is easily one of the most brilliant science-fiction/dystopian novels I've ever read. It's a pretty excellent setting and a pretty excellent story.

[LaGs]

I like Maxx Barry, he's a very good author. I read Syrup not that long ago.