Using numbers in place of letters, among other things. Generally screwing up the writing to such an extent that you need a decoder guide to understand what someone is saying. In that case... I don't bother to read it. It's pretty common elsewhere on the net, particularly in gaming communities where the term "l337 speak" (elite speech) was coined... I'm well accustomed to reading nonsensical crap elsewhere, so the posts here seem exceptionally clean to me. And for that I am thankful.
Yes, we strongly discourage the use of netspeak in posts here. It is a writing forum. No foul for giving the example, but please let's leave it at that, and get back on topic.
Chad, I see where you're coming from with the review strategies. Editing and revising shouldn't simply be about fixing grammar and spelling mistakes. However when you think about it, it's a must. Let me try to put it a different way. Perhaps this will help me make my point. Let's say I'm at a cafe and I order a club sandwich with a nice side of fries and a tall glass of tea. I'm really hyped about getting that plate of food in front me when all of a sudden I see the waitress carrying my food out to me on the inside of a trashcan lid. That is what a piece of writing with bad grammar is like. It becomes less about the content (or the club sandwich with fries) and more about the presentation. The grammar is the first impression that the audience gets. If the writer didn't take enough time to correct those mistakes, the audience must wonder if the author cared enough about the actual content. Now granted, I agree that good editors should see the reviewing process through more than just a spellchecker's lense. I absolutely think that editors should help authors with clarity and ways to better develop their points. After all, that is where most authors have trouble and why many just stop in their tracks. In my opinion, the thing that separates good editors from great editors is their ability to carefully balance grammar checks and content checks. A lot of people here have stated that new members don't always feel comfortable critiquing someone else's work because they don't feel adequately informed to do so. I understand that point and I don't even feel comfortable offering advice all the time. I'm just someone in college who has had a few English courses. It certainly doesn't make me an expert. But what makes anyone an expert? In my opinion, writers are always growing and always learning. Language isn't something that can ever be completely mastered. I guess my point is that input is valuable no matter what English background a person has. Everyone has their own ways of interpreting information and there's never one set way that is correct. Writers can target a specific audience all they like but that won't stop other types of people from reading their work. That's the terrific thing about writing: it allows us to synthesize our content using methods that can be universally understood. And perhaps that is why writing and the editing process will never die out.
Warning: Opinion follows! Gosh! I feel so drained from this whole thread. It feels like I've been beaten to death before I ever posted. I have read nearly all of this thread. I have to say you can learn a lot about people's personalities in here, and some are pretty awesome. The majority of this whole community has not had the chance to see "my" personality yet. I hope it is well received, however, I must admit I am very opinionated. There are those who, when they paint, do not need a background. They do not need the build-up. They need no history, no specifics. They just put the blank canvas in front of themselves, dip the paint brush, and voila! A masterpiece is born. I envy those people, truly. Then there are those who, when they paint, must decide which canvas to buy that will work well with which paint. They do background research so that they know "how" a particular building is supposed to look during a particular era. Then they gently sketch, erase, sketch, erase. Finally they paint. What happens if that artist takes that to market and it never sells? Of course everyone says "Wonderful content!", or "Beautiful colors!". And perhaps if asked, those same potential buyers would tell you that they didn't buy the gorgeous painting because the pencil sketches were showing through the paint. The artist never took the time to "fix" what could have been fixed before trying to sell it at the market. Of course, because the pencil sketches could be seen, they took away from the true artistry in the end. If I review a piece and there are a gazillion SPaGs, then THAT is what jumps out at me. I don't ask my brain to hone in on it, it's just there and I cannot miss it. I have tried to read through the SPaGs and all I end up with in the end is a lot of frustration. Each time I try to read for content, or style, plot anything, a SPaG jumps out at me! It's like...when you talk to the most gorgeous man, or most beautiful woman and they accidently spit in your face while talking to you. Where do you think that original view goes when all you can concentrate on is that nagging wet germ-riddled spot on your cheek. That man/woman is no longer gorgeous or beautiful, they are now disgusting and you can't get this new picture out of your head. So, Although everyone understands what you're "trying" to say Chad, there are somethings that are just natural reactions that some have a hard time getting passed. SPaG is a problem for me. You could write the worlds ultimate best story, but if it has so much SPaG that I have to keep stopping and backing up to re-read for understanding then what's the point? I mean I understand that not everyone has the same level of education. There "are" ways of fixing that problem aside from going back to school. If one wanted, they could take the initiative and contact a librarian for some help. There are tutor volunteers. Friends and relatives will often say yes if you ask them to help with your grammar......but for God's sake, run the dang spell check before you post, lol If mistakes are minimal, I don't have a problem at all. THAT is when I can see the content, style, plot, characters etc. Oh, and by the way... "my" personal worst habit is using elipses. I have to work on that every time I set my fingers to the keys. It's down right irritating, lol
This is me!!!!!!! lol. I can see your point, and I think a lot of other members also do see your point. However, I don't understand why you don't see theirs. If someone made a car without wheels, an engine, and a steering wheel, you're not going to tell them how well the car drives! Similarly, if someone's grammar is so off that it's almost unintelligible, the person needs to improve in their SPaG before they improve in their ability to tell a story. You may say, "Why not do both, improve their grammar and their ability to tell a story." Because you can't tell a person how well their car drives if it doesn't have an engine and wheels! You REALLY need to improve on your SPaG to at least a decent level before you worry about content. Then, and only then, can one start thinking of how well to tell a story. In summary, give the car an engine and some wheels before expecting reviews on how well it drives. But there is!!! loool. It's the point something makes no sound! [I'm just messing!!!]
Yeah, I know what you mean Liliraven. I wonder what people will think of my personality too I have wondered about some of the reviews here. Of course, advice is always great. I love seeing someone comment about my work even when it's not kind. In fact, I like it when they really examine the piece because that helps me the most. While no one has to give an in-depth review to anyone, I still think it's important that people understand the difference between a helpful review and an unhelpful review. I think knowing how to give a helpful review can help you tremendously as a writer because being able to understand why you think someone else s writing is weak can help you to see the weakness in your own writing. Now we can all say, every review is helpful just by the fact that they are saying something, but that's like saying your boss walking up to you to tell you 'Good job' after you accidentally set all the offices computers on fire is helpful. First, it's really confusing because how is it a good job? What was good? Should you set more office computers on fire? Is that what he wants? Or was he just afraid to tell you the truth? To me, telling someone good job when they clearly have real problems in their writing is not helpful, but really a disservice. When you critique someone think of yourself as either their reader or their publisher? Would you really buy their story? Would you really publish their work? For example, I read one story that opened with 'charging anticipation' and another that had 'dust and grease coagulated to a coat'. They continued in much the same manner. Which is okay because this site is just the place for developing writers. What I found disheartening was not the stories but some of the reviews they had received. Reviews like "wow, this is terrific writing." I wondered are the reviewers only posting so they can up their posts enough in order to post their works online for review? Or do they really think blind encouragement counts as a helpful review. I think if those reviewers truly think opening with 'charging anticipation' is good writing than they really need this site. Also I feel many reviewers think that the way they can improve their writing is by getting critiques on their own writing and they undervalue what being a good at critiquing can do for your own writing. I think the best way to improve your own writing is to know how examine the works of others. To me, that's not by examining their grammar only or by telling them their wonderful without giving a reason, but by giving your honest opinion and describing your reasoning for that opinion. Ultimately when I post here, I hope to hear a true opinion not some 'oh your wonderful'. Not that I don't love any comment, but I still hope for a real critique (and I've gotten some nice ones) Why? The reason is because I feel I can take it and in the publishing world I don't think they are nice and flattering to new writers. Real writers will tear you apart and you better be willing to not only take it, but to fight for your writing. Summary: I don't completely agree with Chad, but I do think that its very important for developing writers here to know the difference between a critique and a comment. The reviews I see on most stories so far are usually just comments, not critiques.
I missed this thread somehow. I agree with what you said prettyroser, there is a vast difference between a comment and a critique or a review( i believe a review is less indepth than a critique which can follow a grid to make it easier to breakdown points ) it is important to gain others' views of your work, sadly a great many people believe their writing or opinion is not up to giving such, this is not the case though. Everyone can teach something, learn something from another. we all have talents to share. but worrying about what others will say, stop them. I like critiques, but don't mind comments if that is what they wish to give. Sometimes just letting me know they like it is enough from some but not all. I'm here to learn. give an opinion, its yours to give, so why not exercise it? They can take it or not but if something doesn't read write to you, give a helping hand and point it out. If the writer doesn't choose to look, then they aren't here to learn, instead just want to post pieces. I usually ask if they want a detailed critique, it takes more time as i go through it carefully. It doesn't have to be 'harsh'(never understood what that word has to do with critiquing) it has to be truthful and you can do that without slander or being rude. Mention the good and the parts that need to be made better. sometimes what you think you see isn't what's there and you end up learning too. another interesting thread. thanks for the reads
I'm guilty of everything Chad has mentioned. I must say this in my defense, though: these are the first reviews I've ever done. :3
I just joined this forum a day ago. I'm totally new to all of this. I'm not a published writer, nor do I have any experience editing. This isn't even my native language. I failed english as a foreign language for 5 years, when it was forced on me in german highschool. I learned to speak in english first. Believe it or not, I couldn't read at all back in 1992, when I moved here. I picked up books at the grocery checkout line to try and teach myself to read. And after I chewed my way through hundreds of romance, sci-fi, and horror novels, I could read. I can write now, it's been almost 20 years afterall. But could I tell someone how to spell or tell them why exactly does that sentence sound weird? No, probably not. I can tell you how it made me feel. I can tell you what part seemed odd, and I can try to explain why. When I came to this site, the one thing that stood out to me was the review process. I like having to push myself outside of my comfort zone. I am sure if I post a review, that what I am saying there rings true, to me at least. If you're looking for technical advice though, I'm not educated enough to tell you the why's and how's. I saw some of the reviews with red font, pointing out all the details, and that's great, very precise to be sure. But please don't expect me to be able to do that. Seeing as I really have no idea what I'm talking about, aside from how a particular piece of writing made me feel.
I completely agree with you, Chad. Yes, fixing grammar is fantastic, but that's usually something easily fixable, and and sometimes, SPaG mistakes are merely because the writer didn't read his or her own work carefully enough to catch those mistakes. Especially in stories, I find that the development of the characters - their interactions, their dialogue, their emotions, etc. - is more important to perfect than the grammar because, more often than not, an err in the development of a character is not something seen by the writer. Reviews commenting along those lines - or about the message, tone, lense, etc. - are much more helpful than a response merely correcting some faulty grammar or spelling. At the same time, comments that merely state something is wrong - which is something I've probably done - is also not helpful to the fullest extent. Just saying something along the lines of, "I don't think this character acted in the way that he or she should have in situation x," is not helpful. Instead, it's much more helpful to say what was wrong and WHY it was wrong. Sometimes it's even good to offer a way to correct it to point the author in a direction that you think would better suit the story. I mean, the author doesn't even have to take the advice or suggestion, but the more specific the comment is, the better. I just joined the site a couple days ago, but in all of my comments, I try to focus on the content of the writing, the emotion, the development, the feelings, the message. If I do see SPaG errors, I'll mention that there are them and offer to point them out if the writer wants, but it's not a focus of my reviews.
I agree with the point that there are some unhelpful reviews posted here - especially from new members. When I was a new member, my reviews were completely useless, until I'd got used to the site and realised how to change. Even now I'm sure some of my reviews are a bit rubbish, but I'm learning and try to be helpful, whereas before I just skimmed the piece and tapped out a couple of sentences, platitudes, vague advice. Most people learn how to review after their first few posts (or after one of their threads is locked!) and soon realise the point to it...when they 'know their way round' the site and feel more familiar, start recognising members etc. Perfunctory reviews are irritating, esp when they say stuff like "I thought this was pretty good" or "the last line brakes (sic) the flow and I think you spelt 'sulphur' wrong" - those are a couple of reviews I have had, esp. irritating when your SPaG is wrongly corrected by someone who spelt their own words wrong! It takes time for people to realise that those sorts of reviews are unhelpful; this often happens after they post their own stuff and receive equally unhelpful reviews back. Then, they know what it feels like! God what a load of waffle I just typed...
well truth, the story is important, but the review is giving through another pov, it might not be agreed upon by the writer, but it should not be simply ignored because they don't.
Well my view on this is that if the spelling, punctuation and grammar are of a good standard to start with, then the reviewer wouldn't need to correct it in the first place. You can’t have a good story with bad grammar. If the grammar etc is correct then the reviewer can focus more on the writing its self and how they think it could be improved. Also about the quality of the reviews a think people just do the minimum amount that will allow there work to be reviewed and rush it too. I’m wanting to put my work up here to get reviewed, but am waiting till I have read a few more reviews, before I review other peoples work as I’m not wanting to give a bad one.
i don't understand that policy ricardo. what is a bad review? if you can post a story for review you must have an idea of what a story needs, so why wait to share that?
I think ricardo means he would like to be well informed before he does a review. There's nothing wrong with not jumping in head first into the review room. It is the most advanced area of this website and can be very intimidating. Studying how others do it is a good start imo.
Nevertheless, the only way to get better at critique is to actively work at it. You won't ruin anyone's writing by making suggestions. The author STILL must make the choice of what suggestions to use and which to pass on. That is another raspect of the Review Room, one that probably gets less attention than most.
I agree with Cogito, to me its not an excuse saying you aren't ready. if you can write a story, then you can review one. you learn from both sides each person does.
I agree with Dave also. I also feel that spending some time getting the general feel for how it's done is a good idea. A lot of people who have written stories have done their two "reviews" then posted a story only to have it locked because the reviews weren't within the site guidelines of being constructive. See how a little research before jumping right in can help prevent this? Get in there and do some reviews. If you're still in doubt whether they are acceptable, PM Cogito before you post your story. I'm sure he will be glad to steer you in the right direction.
I read through the first couple of pages. I'm not going to read them all, but here's my two cents: Everyone here is on a different skill levels of writing and reviewing. Some people, as it has been addressed, maybe only be able to give back SPaG reviews. If you are interested in a content related review, why not just write that when you post your story? I'm sure sticking in a "I would prefer opinions on my content rather than my grammar, please " would solve both yours, and anyone else's problem with the reviews.
