1. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    A unique question I kind of feel bad about to ask. (Mature Content)

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by GuardianWynn, Feb 28, 2016.

    I have this unique character that I have recently found very interesting, but given the nature of her quirks I began to question the morallity of those she hangs around.

    I have asked a few people I know in real life what they though and so far I am at an almost even 5-4.

    So I became more interested and figured I would expand the pool to the forum.

    Here is the question.

    A girl whose mental handicap makes her sort of submissive to certain people. To the point that she really doesn't understand how to say no to them. She never does say no to any request they have and really never even seems to consider the concept no. Some of them have sex with her.

    Is it rape when they have sex with her?

    I feel bad for asking, but I feel ever worse for the next weird thing I have noticed.

    So far, all the people that have answered no have been boys. And all the girls have answered yes. But perhaps this is just a weird thing I noticed in life.

    Thank you for listening to my weird questions.
     
  2. NeighborVoid
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    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    I'd say no. And by that, I mean yes. Yes means no. Maybe means no, and by extension, yes.

    When consenting, if "yes" means "no", then the words become redundant and lose their meaning.
     
  3. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    That's interesting. I would ask for more technical details on her handicap. How much does it affect her? Is she like a slave or just a little weak-willed? If it has a certain level of affect or more, then it's rape because she can't consent. Also, who are these guys you hang around with? Did you not make it clear it was a handicap thing? Because I can imagine if they thought it was just a personality thing, then it not being rape is totally fair. But if she has an innate, unconscious push to say "yes" to these , it's effectively as if she were drugged. I don't like the sound of these guys.
     
  4. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    I am lost!


    She is actually strong willed, if you can believe it. The idea is that her brain must view the world in black and white. She cannot stand the idea of opinions.

    So her way of coping with this is she choices a master. His opinion becomes what she bases her logic on. Basically his opinion beomes her objective reality of a standard for all things.

    There is really no rhyme or reason to how she picks them. Basically, until her master dies, he is her master. The moment her master dies, the next person she sees becomes her new master.

    Which dialing it back to sex means that if her master wants sex, then she wants him to have sex. But at no point does the idea of "does she want sex" ever cross her mind.
     
  5. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Definitely rape.(blows rape whistle).
    Also, I'm 90% sure @NeighborVoid was saying it's rape.
     
  6. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Could you go into more detail about why you are considering it rape? Please and thank you. :)
     
  7. Lifeline
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    Lifeline The Dark - not in Wonderland Supporter Contributor

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    If a person is not able/not willing to consent it is rape.

    Sex comes from both parties willing (and willing=consent). So if one party cannot/doesn't want to consent, it is rape. That was what @NeighborVoid meant with his convoluted yes/no. A person can say 'yes' but effectively would want to say 'no' but cannot for whatever reason. The important part is WANT TO SAY NO. As soon as that is true it is rape.
     
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  8. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    The key part of @NeighborVoid's post was When consenting, if "yes" means "no", then the words become redundant and lose their meaning." When I first read the post, I was confused like you, but re-reading that part made me realize he was saying consent needs to have meaning.
     
  9. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah, I get that logic. I was just seeing if the his logic was different. You never know.

    But that is the trick. She in a sense isnt secretly thinking no or wants to say no. She doesn't know what she wants to say. She has never thought about it.

    But I guess the argument is that pushes her right back into, can't consent territory, right?
     
  10. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Yes, it does.
     
  11. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    So, does this make the 4 guys I asked in real life horrible people for answering no that it isn't rape?
     
  12. doggiedude
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    doggiedude Contributing Member

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    I think there are somethings that about this situation that make it unclear. Does her handicap keep her in an institution?
    Who are these people having sex with her - Do they have power over her? If someone is her only source of care than things can be iffy.
    However, excluding those things, if a man pushes for sex and the woman ACTS willing then no it's not rape. Even if she is thinking to herself that she doesn't want to. Unless she tells the other person NO then it's not rape.
     
  13. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think this post answers your questions.

    Which sounds like you vote not rape? But then again maybe after reading the post your opinion will change.
     
  14. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    No. Consent is a tricky business, it's easy to be confused. Which is why I'm glad I'm not in charge of deciding the law of it. I just have to follow what judges and politicians decide. And the law says you need to be of unaffected mind to consent. If you have a mental issue that affects consent, it's immediately a red flag. But that's not very well known.
     
  15. NeighborVoid
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    NeighborVoid Active Member

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    It really depends on whether or not the guy is taking advantage of the handicap. If he's completely oblivious to it, then she's just making a bad decision.
     
  16. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    She's not making a bad decision, she's making a disadvantanded one. It's always going to be rape as long as she isn't actually actively thinking I want this rather than doing it out of a master view of a person. Whenever the handicap is in direct play, it's not okay. The guy is essentially a school teacher with a student. Even if it is not abusive or pedo/hebophilic, it's just going to be an issue. Which totally sucks for the girl but it's how consent law operates, it's for her protection that it is that strict.

    Small thing, shouldn't it be personality disorder not mental handicap? This doesn't sound like a handicap.
     
  17. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah, it is kind of sad for her. Actually, a friend argued something interesting. Saying that since she derives her meaning by serving and she has no real limits to what she won't do, that by extension, she will always be happy. Because she is happy to serve and all she does is serve.


    Uhm, yeah personality disorder might work better. I mean, I don't think this is a real condition. So the point I was expressing was that she is not normal and her not normal aspect puts her at a disadvantage. Mental handicap I think describes that. For the purpose of this thread anyhow.
     
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  18. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    If you can't say no, then you can't say yes and really mean it. She is not capable of consent.
     
  19. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    She wouldn't always be happy. I doubt she is immune to other sources of suffering or complications in her serving. That sounds like a silly statement to me, not to put-down your friend.
     
  20. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Well, yeah. I didn't mean to imply that her happiness level would always be peaked at 10 without dipping down even for minor seconds.

    What I meant, is her logic is so one dimension to the point that her mind would litterally think of the following ideas.

    "My Alpha(she calls him Alpha, not master) wants my parents dead. So my parents should die." No pause, no self introspection, no questioning. She grounded her logic in the idea that her Alpha is right. So if her Alpha wants her parents dead, she would be willing to kill them for her Alpha.

    "My Alpha wants bread. So I will get bread. The clerk is trying to stop me and shouting theif. They are trying to stop my Alpha from getting bread. Thus they are bad. They must be stopped because my Alpha must have bread."

    As an example of the twisted way her mind would think. She would kill the store clerk in the above situation too.

    So, if she is grounded with this view that serving Alpha is good and makes her happy. It seems like she would never not be doing that. Right?
     
  21. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah. I think that is true enough. Poor girl? I am not really sure. I get torn.

    On one hand, it sounds horrible that she lacks sort of this basic ability.

    But on the other hand, since she lacks this basic ability, it seems like she would never be self aware of that to be sad herself. So if she isn't sad, it almost seems condesending to be sad towards her. Does that make sense?
     
  22. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Unless she encounters doubt. That sounds like the perfect thing to do with this character. Like my character Bradford's morality stuff, this character is someone who is used to state of certainty, leaving her skeptical capacity somewhat latent. Putting her in a situation where she begins to question that would create some very poignant moments I think.
     
  23. Oscar Leigh
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    Oscar Leigh Contributing Member

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    Eh, sad things are sad. It's certainly true that people with conditions often feel like they get too much pity and it's overwhelming, but I don't think they'd like you to be cheery about their problems either. :meh:
     
  24. GuardianWynn
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    GuardianWynn Contributing Member Contributor

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    That wasn't something I planned to do in this characters case. Mainly because I can't realistically picture it. Not from a growing perspective.

    The only way to really push her to that would be if her Alpha commanded her to think that way which sounds simple. But, it wouldn't work. I see her becoming frustated, not giving out an answer, possibly banging her head against nearby objects and finally leaving. Yep, she would abandon that Alpha.

    Because as mentioned. She gains an Alpha to avoid thinking like that. So, if her Alpha isn't helping, then she is out. She will find a new Alpha.

    Yeah, that is true, but think of this girl. She wouldn't understand that she has something wrong with her. So... wouldn't any reaction, sad or cheery just confuse her?
     
  25. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    I'm not seeing that these things make her happy. As I see it, she does them to avoid being unhappy, because of what you said about her not wanting to have opinions.

    But happiness isn't purely about a lack of unhappiness. I don't think that this character would be happy.
     

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