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  1. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    Abortion—continued thread

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Tharian, Dec 15, 2013.

    Some people argue from a utilitarian point of view when it comes to pro-abortion. Some people argue that upon conception babies are conscious humans too—'life', if you will. But when is something conscious and when is it worth less or more than another human being?

    A baby has a 400 cc brain; an adult has a 1200 cc brain. Does that make a baby less of worth when we compare it to a dolphin (If we ignore the encephalization quotient, otherwise known as brain to body mass ratio)? Of course not, whether you're religious or not, humans are the species that deserve ascendancy. Why? Because we are humans ourselves.

    Abortion is a difficult thread to tread on. Especially because we think we know a thing or two about consciousness, but it still remains an enigma.

    Even if one would believe in the freedom of choice, how do we know that we rest the choice with the right people? And do we create a paradox if 'freedom of choice' means the removal of a child, therefore removing the baby from his own freedom, leaving him no choice? The discussion concerning abortion very often escalates into Aristotelian terms—the realm of 'all or nothing'.

    My personal opinion is that if we deem the choices of people able enough in order to have a democracy, then we can deem them able enough with this choice as well. It is also a plus for the regulation of global population. Abortion carries consequences, but they mostly entail the sparing of the prospect of a miserable life.

    I do, however, think that choosing abortion should have a tangible aftermath. Of course, this depends on the situation, rape victims should always have the free option to do so, in my opinion. But if we offer free abortion without any consequences, then we create the illusion of a safety net that almost 'rewards' lewd behaviour. It will mitigate the importance of contraception and the realisation of what they are doing. Because whether you are pro or anti-abortion, knowing the story of the other side is equally as important as choosing your own.
     
  2. Fitzroy Zeph
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    Fitzroy Zeph Contributing Member Contributor

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    You're a guy, right? Cause that's one of those dumb guy things you said. Are you addressing the female or male portion of the equation? Recalling your biology, that it does take two individuals to get pregnant.

    And what in the world is "lewd" behaviour?
     
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  3. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    Yeah, abortions aren't fun. Nobody sets out seeking to get one, or wants to be in a position to get one. Forcing pregnancy as a punishment for having sex, which punishes only one of the people involved is not laudable.
     
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  4. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    Arguing the issue is ultimately fruitless. If you believe a human life begins at conception that is on-part with human life at any other stage, then it makes sense to oppose abortions. That's a fundamental belief that no argument is going to chance, and unless it changes there is no reason for the position on abortion to change.

    I believe the issue should be left between a woman and her doctor, and I don't accept the fundamental assumption that life begins at conception.

    There's no headway to be made between the sides, because you have two incompatible fundamental beliefs underlying the positions of either side.
     
  5. thirdwind
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    thirdwind Contributing Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    @JJ_Maxx, I'm replying to your post in this thread because the other thread was getting way off topic.

    I can admit it's an arbitrary line, but where we differ is that I don't see it as murder because the fetus is not a fully developed human and thus does not have the same rights you or I do.

    The assumption this guy makes is that the fetus is the same as a human being. That's where he and I (and you and I) differ.

    I can agree that people value some lives more than others. And I can admit that deciding where to draw the line is a tough task. But I do believe that a line can be drawn somewhere because I'm not sure how I feel about a woman having an abortion a week before she's due (to use an extreme example).
     
  6. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    Obviously the choice will lie with the woman more often than not, but there are instances where they e.g. both make the consideration.

    In this case, behaviour that elicits careless sexual desire.
     
  7. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    I don't believe in drawing a line. It is as @Steerpike says, there is no headway between the sides. Even if there is a consensus on a 'line', people will start drawing a line on that line.
     
  8. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    I think you have misread the post, if it's about the OP at all. I'm not saying abortion should be a punishment for having sex, that would be ludicrous.
     
  9. Fitzroy Zeph
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    Fitzroy Zeph Contributing Member Contributor

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    My point was simply, that it is highly likely the abortion has tangible aftermath without any further intervention by an outside party.
     
  10. mammamaia
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    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    huh?

    does that contradict itself, or am i imagining things?
     
  11. Fitzroy Zeph
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    Fitzroy Zeph Contributing Member Contributor

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    I think I got it right. But besides the wonderful banter, I try improve my writing and thank you for pointing this out.

    I want to say; you don't have to counsel a woman who is having an abortion, to feel something, whether it be good or bad, because, she most likely already does. I could be wrong, but, it seemed like the OP was trying to say that the woman goes about getting an abortion with no thought whatsoever.
     
  12. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    Well yes, obviously, but in what way and is that enough? If there's a standard aftermath then there is at least an assurance that everyone will—at the very least—learn something out of it. It's about breaking the 'safety net' illusion by hanging a tag on abortion that says, ''this will also have other implications.'' I say this because I believe that the notion of this last resort, as it currently is (I cannot speak for all countries), in a way contributes to the problem.
     
  13. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    If there are more people who think this, then I apologise for my lack of apt writing. It wasn't my intention and I will try—if I haven't already— to specify my point of view.
     
  14. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    No, but there are people who believe this. My response was more in furtherance of Fitzroy's post, which discussed the issue further, from the premise that the OP indicated that there should be some sort of additional consequences for having an abortion, in order to discourage them.
     
  15. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I'm strongly pro-choice. I honestly think that instead of worrying about the people who are not even here yet, we should instead focus on the people who are here, and who are unloved, unwanted and alone.
     
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  16. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Both egg and sperm have a full genetic complement. So do all cells with a complete nucleus. Why not make purposeful 'spilling seed on the ground' (male masturbation) the crime of murder?

    Cancer cells multiply independent of the body they take sustenance from. Stem cells in a petri dish are incapable of developing to term (with current science that is).

    If you define an individual life as anything other than a fetus which has reached the age it can survive outside the womb, there are parallels to the way one defines an individual life that make the definition problematic.


    The rate of spontaneous miscarriage (abortion) in women who know they are pregnant is estimated to be 15-20%. But the rate of spontaneous abortion of all pregnancies is estimated to be closer to 50%.
    If your argument against abortion is religious, the gods certainly don't seem to mind killing off fertilized eggs and developing fetuses.


    Not all stem cells originate with an artificially aborted fetus. Cord blood has viable stem cells. In addition, donating the fetus from a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) is not much different from donating the other organs of a deceased child. Donating eggs and sperm that are later combined in a fertility procedure is also not any different from donating a kidney from a live donor.

    Arguments against stem cell research that define it as experimenting with living infants are also extremely problematic.


    Given there are no clear dividing lines here except viability outside the womb, there are no other universal definitions, be they religious, moral or legal, that extend beyond individual belief. Anyone who says their definition of when fetal life becomes an individual life should apply to everyone else cannot, given the facts, make that assertion based on the evidence.

    The only logical, evidence based option regarding abortion and stem cell research is individual choice.
     
  17. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    I would argue that the 'outside the womb' line that you believe is a clear line is just as fuzzy as the rest of the lines. I do agree with you that there is no clear line that can be drawn to determine when a baby becomes a baby, which is why I err on the side of 0% possibility of murdering an otherwise healthy human being.

    There isn't a single scientist, ethicist or biologist who can draw that line, but hey, when a society really wants to avoid responsibility, they will convince themselves of just about anything.

    From 1998-2008, there were almost a million abortions in Florida alone. 98.3% of those abortions were elective, and had nothing to with the health of the mother or the baby. It was just, 'Oops, we created a baby, let's make it go away.'

    Again, if you don't know if it's murder or not, how can you take the chance? I would be pro-life regardless of my religion, my humanity and conscience would never allow me to be anti-life.
     
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  18. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Which supports my argument, it doesn't rebut it.

    Your belief, your choice.

    Again, supports my position.

    All pregnancies pose a risk to the life of the mother. Abortion is typically more safe than a pregnancy.

    Again, your belief, your choice.
     
  19. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Murder is a personal choice, I agree but don't act like that choice doesn't say something about a person or that we can't legislate or hold accountable those choices.
     
  20. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Round and round the mulberry bush ....

    I and millions of other people don't believe abortion is murder. Now what?


    Evangelical Christianity is a cult that is indoctrinating members and I believe there should be a law protecting those believers. Now what?
     
  21. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    It's removing a parasitic being, not extinguishing an independent life. We don't have any laws that require anyone, even a parent, to donate a kidney to a child who will die without one. There aren't even any laws that require anyone to so much as give a pint of blood to save someone's life, even if you are a rare match for that person's blood type, and there is no other source of blood. Because we view one's own bodily autonomy as of the highest importance. Anyone who does not want to harm one's own body, even if it is merely for inconvenience is not required to do so. Except in places where abortion is outlawed. And it only, obviously, applies to women.
     
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  22. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    (Oh lord, I'm gonna hijack this thread, but I can't help myself!)

    Why are people, especially teens, so intent on having you-know-what? There's no 100% way of preventing baby, and it's worse when the teen girl doesn't bother with birth control. I would rather stick to the old "abstinence until marriage" gambit then run the risk of an unwanted baby or having to have an abortion.

    Even when I'm married, being pregnant seems really, really, weird. I'm just going to adopt with my husband....
     
  23. Lemex
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    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    The same could be said of anyone who has at some point started maturing to eventual adulthood. Not enough people think intelligently, sadly.
     
  24. JJ_Maxx
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    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    This is something known as the 'bandwagon effect' and throughout history has been a common cognitive bias in societies.

    We believe in our society that killing an innocent person is morally wrong.
    We don't know when a fetus becomes a person, so any abortion is a chance for murder. (x=>0%)

    If it si murder, it is wrong. If it isn't murder, it is morally acceptable. We have already shown that the conversion point cannot be ascertained, therefore, we as society should do the right thing and avoid any chance of murder.

    A child has all the genetic qualities of a unique human being from conception. It's DNA is different and unique from both parents.

    This will never happen in our sexualized society.
     
  25. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    ... the farmer chased the weasel...
     
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