Of course I have some nerdy friends and they talk about everything of what they seen, not just about action. We talk about the characters, what they went through, and which character died. And both action and character makes the story work. I guess what pushes the action are the characters. Without characters, there is no action. Plus the characters' lives, relationship, and emotion are what also fuels the action, which I think. There are dialogue driven books which mostly focus on dialogue and the interaction between the characters. One of the books is Fetch and it is one of the best known dialogue driven books that follow an action between characters. There is a lot of dialogue in it. That example you show about you answering the door isn't enough. There can be more details and more conversation instead of you just answering and closing the door. The type of characters I like are bad asses, smart, and strong heroes who are better than average people. Characters who never let things get in their way. Of course they need flaws to keep the suspense and action going. As long as they are not too perfect, they still entertain me. But what I don't care about are their relationships, love life, their personal issues, and how this conflict represent them. If I write an action adventure short story about characters stopping an evil villain, do I really have to show the readers my characters' normal life and relationship before they go on this quest? Why do fans relate to this stuff? Why can't they enjoy a different world that isn't their world. A world of better people, but with action pack conflicts like in Sci Fi and Fantasy. It seems like we only enjoy human psychology.
Yep. People are only people if they have lives. Otherwise, they're just cardboard figures smashing villains.
Then how can it all fit in one short story? Characters do have lives, but it doesn't have to show their lives.
There is a term of a short story like the one you described. It would be called "a short mission of a bad video game". My brother is 8 years old and even he gives his characters' background when he plays with his toy robots and action figures. About The Fetch, i assume you are talking about the Laura Whitcomb book and not some graphic novel again. Here is a short licensed extract of the book, you can tell me where you see what you said you do and i will stand corrected. Fetch Extract
When I played with my toys, I never gave any of my characters' a background. I focus on the action. I guess the way you can fit the character background in a short story is by telling it to the reader. Showing it will require a lot of pages. And this is the wrong novel. It is Fletch by Gregory Mcdonald. http://books.google.com/books?id=vBTMJtV6GG8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dialogue+driven+novels+Fetch&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Uf9VUZOiCKfw0QGgpIGYBg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Plus when you said, "a short mission of a bad video game," it sounds like you don't like video games, which has no stories or character development. Games can be fun without stories as long as the gameplay is good and addictive.
Some people are not writers. I am sure at some point they may find what they are good at but, up and deciding right out of the blue that they will become a famous writer is a nice daydream, but as far as becoming actual reality...well, maybe yes, maybe no. But one thing is absolutely true: if you fail to "get" the very essence of a thing, then you can not master it. And the biggest fail I see in people who want to be writers, is failure to grasp what people want to read about, and why they want to read about it. .
If Bob the marine is off to fight the aliens with his fellow soldiers and all I read about is "Bob went to the plaza where they shot down the alien ship blabla.." followed by "Bobs friend were killed on the beach," followed by "The alien overlord landed outside the city and the soldiers need to get back to their helicopter," why would I care if they defeat the alien overlord or not? Unless you can get your reader emotionally invested in the characters there would be absolutely no reason to keep on reading. Ok, so Bob decides that in order to get into the city he must lead the marines through the underground sewer canals. If I had not learned two hundred pages ago that Bobs little brother drowned in an underground river when they were children, I would have pictured a group of marines plowing through the sewer canals. Instead I see a man overcoming his biggest fear in order to save his city from alien invaders, and that gives the character a lot more life than simply reading about action (booooooring). I want to highlight a quote you said previously. So they characters go on an adventure? Why? What drives them? Why do they keep on going when faced with any bump in the road? Why are they all there together? How do they know each other? Also remember that unless your characters seem like real people, readers are unlikely to get invested in them. Real people fight, real people argue and groups of real people have internal problems, that always happens, unless they are best friends. But unless you have some kind of explanation for why they never fight (How they resolved all their issues in the past), they wont be very believable characters.
This whole time you have been arguing why you should be allowed not to write what it is that readers want to read. Stories are people in crisis and what they do (or attempt to do) to get out of crisis.
Here are some simple reasons why characters follow their action; money, power, love, rescue, saving the world, and survival. Soldiers fight for the survival of the human race. Would you care if you are in that situation? What if you are one of the civilians getting torture by aliens. It is all a what if and how readers would react. That can be emotional. Even if readers don't care about the dying soldiers, they can feel an emotional experience depending on how well the story is written. And some characters just know each other. If you can explain how they met and how they became friends, then the readers will understand. It seems like you readers want books about the characters' issues and how the conflict symbolize their problem, no matter what setting or conflict they take place. Yes real people argue and start problems, but the entire story doesn't have to focus on drama, unless it is a drama story. If stories focus more on character drama, their relationship, and issues, then the story should be consider as a literary genre. I read some literature books like To Kill a Mockingbird, and Of Men and Mice at school. I admit they are good because of their morals and themes, but their long characterization bored me. Let's stick to genre fiction and pulp magazine stuff. If most stories are about characters solving problems, then that is what the story is about. However, it depends what kind of conflict it is. The type of conflict I like in stories are Man vs Nature and Man vs Man. "And the biggest fail I see in people who want to be writers, is failure to grasp what people want to read about, and why they want to read about it." This sound like you are saying that writers fail because they are being selfish, like they only care what they think what readers should be reading. But good writers are not like that. Some of us want to experiment or make something new. We want to teach readers, give them experience, or help them exit from reality. Do everything have to feel real, even if the setting takes place in a stupid unrealistic cartoon world? Also if the characters are the ones driving the action, how is it action driven? It sounds like character driven. I just thought about this.
No. What kind of crisis? Personal, racism, love? That is all character driven. If the story has a lot of characterization, then it should be consider as a literacy genre. I am talking about mainstream fiction genre and pulp fiction. In action driven stories, it should be about how characters solve the main problem and what the story concept is. Some stories don't have to be about the character's psychological problems. If it is part of the background, it should be part of the background, but not the main drive. Action driven stories can be about experience, saving the world, and disasters. Characters are just people solving the concept. If you want to write a story about a character having a personal problem, and how the main conflict connects to his problem, then consider it as a literacy genre. Anything that isn't part of the main plot shouldn't be included. But character background information like how they met their friends and became soldiers, is one of the important elements. Having the readers learn about the characters is okay, but the entire story shouldn't be about it. By the way, how do you delete a post?
First off, I don't know how you delete a post. Don't think it is possible. To stick with the topic. You seem to focus too much on thinking writing in depth about characters means they need to have physiological problems or the the story having drama, which is where I believe you are wrong. I am sure every human on the planet have some kind of personal issue they deal with, a lot of us subconsciously without even knowing. It is being able to relate to insecurities and trouble in others that truly makes two human beings connect, and a believable story will explore that. I am not saying to place less emphasis on a interesting plot and refreshing concepts, for they are essential to a good story. What I am getting is that unless you can include some human aspect in the story, it will feel shallow and devoid of emotion. When you made a list of reasons for why people might want to fight on and drive the plot forward I felt you were just scratching the surface (money, power, love, rescue, saving the world, and survival). All the reasons you gave are good and valid reasons, but I feel like unless you go deeper and really explore the motive, none of them, except with perhaps the reason of love, are really valid reasons at all. Let me ask a few more questions. Money is a powerful motivator, and it can be an as good reason as any to do something. But why do we do it? Why is money important to our character? A lot of people feel content having enough money to get by without constantly wishing for more, so why is it different for the protagonist/villain? Do he feel like he need money to impress other people? Does he think it will bring happiness? Why does he seek and strive for more? What about power? Power is a game I think many enjoy playing for its own sake. Power might also be used as a mean to cover up other problems and issues a person might have. It might also be for many of the same reasons as people seek money. After all, money and power often go hand in hand. Lastly there are my two favorite subjects to explore. The world needs saving. But do our characters ever stop to ask themselves why? Other than the fact that we are biologically programmed to want to survive, why should we? The world is a dark brutal place where suffering is in abundant supply, so we do we go on? What is the characters reasons for doing so? This apart. The main thing to keep in mind is that while all these things are absolutely essential (in my subjective opinion) to a good story, and it breathes life into it, it do not have to be the main focus. If you want to write a story about a dragon wreaking havoc in a kingdom of some far away land, and write about huge siege battle and soldiers riding to war under a blood red standard in the setting sun; by all means do that. That is what the story is about. Just know that if you want to ever sell your story to a market, the market like characters they can relate to and gain empathy with. To me that is what make a book worth reading or a show worth watching, and it is the characters that I remember after most else about the story has faded.
See...much of what you are arguing you wouldn't be if you have had a wider reading experience. All stories are about characters going through crisis (doing exciting things that have real consequences to them) You have describe that very thing yourself in the last few posts you've made, but don't know that you have. Go to the library and check out some cool novels on CD or, as my library system does, download a few audio book on mp3, if you don't want to actually read--just make sure they are not abridged. You want the whole novel--uncut. You need to see the character arc playing out. Or you could click on the links I posted for War of the Worlds, or, 1984 and read them online. They are pretty decent stories. And I will be cool, and over look this bit: "This sound like you are saying that writers fail because they are being selfish, like they only care what they think what readers should be reading. But good writers are not like that. Some of us want to experiment or make something new. We want to teach readers, give them experience, or help them exit from reality. Do everything have to feel real, even if the setting takes place in a stupid unrealistic cartoon world?" ...Or maybe I wont over look that statement.
I like your comment about saving the world. Yes, why should we live, even if it is part of our survival? Why should we fight to live? Maybe we are afraid that death is nothing but a dark lonely place where we will be trap in forever. Our love ones won't be with us, and there won't be anything to do. The only thing we could do is remember our past life and suffer the darkness. That can be a good reason to live on, to avoid living in darkness forever. I believe we have no purpose of why we exist. But we can make our own purpose of living in this reality, and it will make us fight for it. Characters who want money and power have their own reason. Maybe to survive or keep the world from falling into corruption. Or they want to just conquer the world. Sometimes when I read books with characters full of empathy, I always ask myself, "Why should I care?" I can understand some of the characters' problems and how hard they work to get the girl. Usually I only follow the logic than feeling the emotion. I only care about emotion in real life, not in books. I like to read books that do not have anything to do with reality, unless it is about aliens attacking the city, or a zombie virus spreading; one of those concepts, but unique. If readers want believable characters, fine. The characters can act like real people, but an action driven story should focus on the concept. Plus what kind of characters can people relate to and feel empathy? Good guys? Normal people with the same daily life problems? Why not super humans or furry characters? Does some stories need everything to sell?
As I read this thread, I'm forming two theories: 1) Maybe you just don't like novels. Novels, even the most action-filled ones, are primarily about characters and their goals and emotions. 2) Maybe you've been reading the wrong novels for your personal taste. Some of your comments suggest that the novels that you're reading tend to have a lot of overwrought, angsty, messy situations. Not all novels are that way--some handle the emotions and character issues in a dryer, subtler way. I'm wondering, what novels--full-length novels as opposed to graphic novels or adaptations--have you read? If you can name a few and tell us why you don't like those specific novels, maybe that would make your position clearer, and even help people to suggest what you might like to read or write.
This is where "show, not tell" comes into play. I also don't always like it when we are given pages of irrelevant information about a character's history. However, if you have a character that say likes to fight crime, you do need to touch upon WHY he likes to fight crime. Did he suffer an injustice that he never got the chance to "fix"? If it's all action driven then it's going to be very much like a 5 year old relaying a string of events. "And then this happened and then he said this and she got sad so she did that and then this happened." But I get what you mean by creating a mystery about your character can create intrigue among your readers. A prime example would be The Driver for Drive (book, film). We are never given his back story or even his name (he is literally called The Driver) BUT he still gets a butt load of characterisation. Through the events in the book, the way he handles these conflicts, certain things that he says and does, we already have a pretty good idea what happened in his past to make him this way. We don't really need to be told exactly what. SHOW your character in their full complexities and you should've have to TELL the readers every reason/justification behind every action
The books I don't like are romance novels of any kind, like Twilight. They always have cheesy drama, too much emotion, and the characters act stupid over their own issues. It's a amazing that these books are on the bestselling list. I also don't like the intense drama in action manga aimed to male readers. There is always tragedy, crying, and a lot of screaming. Some of the drama makes sense, but it's just out of control. Drama in American graphic novels are not that intense. I guess the type of books I like are ones that focus on the main concept with short characterization and brief background information. Plus they have to be science fiction, fantasy, horror, comedy, and action.
But can you name any specific titles? See, I'm guessing that they probably _do_ have plenty of characterization, but that they weave it in subtly enough that you don't recognize it as such. If so, and if your goal was how to _write_ novels that you would like to read, then perhaps some discussion of how that characterization is done would help you understand how to write them so that others will also like to read them.
The manga I am reading are Naruto, Fairy Tail, Bleach, Battle Royala, Old Boy, Psyen, and Tirage X. The last books I read were Danial X, Maximum Ride, Zoo, Hunger Pains (Parody of Hunger Games), Zoo, Toys, World of Warcraft: Tides of Darkness, 1408, The Graveyard Book, Goosebumps, and now reading some short stories of Conan by Robert E. Howard.
Out of those the Graveyard Book, is exceptionally well written. The characterization is near perfect. 1984 goes well with that book. http://www.george-orwell.org/1984
