1. Killer300
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    Killer300 Active Member

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    Alien Proxy War

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Killer300, May 30, 2011.

    Okay, have their been novels where aliens have used two human nations to fight a proxy war for them? I bring this up, because I would like something to reference perhaps while trying for this concept, or whether to know I'm possibly in a catagory that has very few entries.

    My concept is this, the Soviet Union still exists in 2010 and is actually far stronger than it used to be. That's because back in the year 1970, aliens decided to support the Soviet Union, finding themselves being closer idealogically to them than any other nation on Earth. Another alien race decides to support the United States, starting also in 1970, although it twists the U.S. too.

    Each species is at an extreme. The one allied with the Soviet Union has a hive mind, hence they have no concept of the individual to begin with. They supply the Soviet Union with advanced computers, fusion technology, and far more advanced manufacturing processes. The other species is extremely individualistic, although neither species is capitalistic. Both, in return for supplying technology, want the factions to become more extremist in a certain direction. The Soviet Union becomes more and more collectivized, with the help of introduced cybernetic technology, but feels scared of where that is going, considering that hive mind mentality isn't the purpose of Socialism or non-Stalinist Communism, however they don't exactly have any bargaining chips in the arrangement. The species influencing the U.S. wants it to turn into an extreme type of individualism, one even more so than capitalism. Their ideal is Ethical Egoism, and so they decide to warp the United States towards that goal, however this would mean significantly changing the U.S. government. They can give technology, but otherwise, they are forced to slow down the U.S. in some ways industrially speaking in order to implement the changes they want, which is an atomization of individuals to the point of extreme isolation.

    Basically, the core theme riding throughout is that neither collectivitivism or individualism really work. Each one ironically becomes the other when taken to an extreme. The Soviet Union, for example, doesn't want to become just one massive individual, which is what would happen with a hive mind, all the individuals would mix together into a single entity. The United States, on the other hand, doesn't want it to turn into less of a nation, and more of just a glorified territory for individuals to do whatever. The U.S. government in many ways has become a collective with the goal of eroding bonds between people that cause collectivisation.

    Okay, I ask two questions.
    A. Any plot issues with the concept right here?
    B. Again, are there novels like this already? I imagine so, and could use something at least as a reference.
     
  2. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    A story concept means nothing. I can tell you now, it has all been done before. What matters is how you write it, the characterization, the flow, the imagery, all of it.

    There's no benefit in asking what other people think of the concept! They'll either say,"Sounds great," or, "it sounds like a ripoff of..."

    If the idea stirs you, write it. Then ask people what they think of the final story. After they tell you what they don't like about it, revise it, usually several times, until you're happy with it or until you throw up your hands and say the hell with it.

    Please read What is Plot Creation and Development?
     
  3. StrangerWithNoName
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    StrangerWithNoName Longobard duke

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    A. No, if you like it it could be a good base for an alternative history novel.
    B. Not that I remember...
     
  4. darkhaloangel
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    darkhaloangel Active Member

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    I don't know any novels - but your hive collective comes right off a Startrek episode I bet you already knew that though.

    A couple of questions are: What is the rest of the world doing? I mean it's a big place and the aliens must be interested in elsewhere. Are they going to war? I mean it seems like the Soviets will win easily, and surely the alien races are just playing out a proxy war using humans as test pieces. Will the prose be spilt in two - i.e two characters from either side of the fence, will we get to hear about the aliens?

    It seems to be an analogy for the Korean or the Vietnam wars, where the Soviet Union would give North Korea amo, food, supplies to fight and remain communist, where as the USA would give the same to the South. They were really fighting a cold war with each other, but using other poorer countries as a proxy. Perhaps researching those situations will give more 'realism' to any plot holes that occur.

    It does sound interesting (but I like sci-fi dystopian topics). In fact as research I'd check out dystopians - I'm sure if you put that into google they'll give you a whole list of good ones. Good luck writing.
     
  5. Killer300
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    Killer300 Active Member

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    Ah, well, looks like Cogntio, despite my attempts at avoiding it, still provided the concept reply. Well, anyway, the main thing I was looking for was to see if there are novels with a similar concept. I know of the historical events, I'm just trying to see if anyone has put that into prose yet. Thanks anyway.:D
     
  6. Islander
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    Islander Contributing Member Contributor

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    Your premise vaguely reminds me of Fritz Leiber's The Big Time, in which a West and an East side is involved in a time-travel war to change history to their advantage, but it's unclear who, if any, lies behind respective side.

    In your premise, what stops the alien races from fighting each other directly?
     
  7. Killer300
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    Killer300 Active Member

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    Well, what stopped the U.S. and the U.S.S.R from fighting each other directly? Same thing here, except instead of nukes, it's just that each side has no hope of being able to beat the other conventionally. So, they want to prove to the other that their ideal is better basically. It's collectivism vs individualism. The series shows why neither works really.
     
  8. Krall
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    Krall New Member

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    Ah, so I'd imagine these two alien races have powerful weaponry allowing them to exist in a state where their destruction is mutually assured should they ever go to war, so they use less advanced species to fight proxy wars.

    Have you developed much of a backstory for the two sides in this alien cold war? Are they two separate species, or are they two collections of species, or a collection of sovereign states with various species being split between the two sides, etc.? What ideologies are these two sides promoting, and why are they promoting them? Things like that.
     
  9. Killer300
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    Killer300 Active Member

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    Ah, thanks Krall. Well, the Hive is one species, although it has absorbed other species so it's kind of like the Borg in that respect, and it is a collective. It believes that all other species should be collectives, although not necessarily part of theirs, because it's the most stable, while also providing for all members. The other species is... very hard to explain without going off into very confusing territory for people not familiar with ethical egoism, so I'll just say this. They make Ayn Rand look authoritarian by comparison, when it comes to individualism. They are the ultimate individualists.
     
  10. McHamlet
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    McHamlet Member

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    How did the ultimate individualists co-operate enough to create advanced technology? And how do they co-operate enough to allow themselves be a part of a military campaign whose aim is not to benefit them individually but to benefit an ideology?

    I'm just wondering because it seems a bit paradoxical to hear of a coordinated military campaign (even if by proxy) being carried out by individualists particularly ultimate individualists. Individualists (and I'd consider myself one) tend to value the opportunity for individual creativity and freedom above all else.
     
  11. Killer300
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    Killer300 Active Member

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    That's where it gets weird. Basically, the paradox of the story is that each idealogy ends up turning into the other one. The individualists end up causing collectivist elements to appear to try to create their individualist world, while the collectivists are really just one individual, the hive.

    But at first, they what are called, "Union of Egoists," which is basically their replacement for traditional group structure. They find objectivism, i.e. Ayn Rand, to be only halfway there really, they themselves following Max Stirner. They consider capitalism just as collectivist as communism, if not more so, because of their ideals.
     
  12. Ashrynn
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    Ashrynn Active Member

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    What Cogito said is right.

    I believe that there are.....7 Types of a story / Archetypes in which we use in order to create a book.

    Actually I looked it up just now and found this as one of those 7:


    Overcoming the Monster
    In Overcoming the Monster stories the hero/heroes must overcome a dark evil creature/person/entity that has exerted an evil destructive force over a place, persons or people.

    Examples of this plot are The Silence of the Lambs, Dracula, Jaws, Hansel and Gretel.


    Honestly, you just are going to have to write it and make it original.
     
  13. JimFlagg
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    JimFlagg Contributing Member

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    I don't know of any in which the humans fight as slaves for an alien race. It too hard to get a slave to point the gun at the right people. :p Now there are stories like "the Host" by Stephenie Myer where the aliens take over the human host. There are the classic Body Snatchers and so on.

    There are plenty of books out there about humans who Alie them selves with aliens in return for protection for the Earth.

    I would just write what you gut tells you to write.
     
  14. StrangerWithNoName
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    StrangerWithNoName Longobard duke

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    Using these semplifications is like to say that all the cars, chariots etc...are the same thing because they have four wheels.

    A plot is not just "face the monster and defeat it" and the four novels you cite have very different plots, it's not just "the way they are written" that make them different.
     
  15. thesims
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    thesims Member

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    Interesting idea! The only series I know that is remotely related to your concept is Animorph:

    One alien race (the Yeerks) infiltrates human society by taking hosts against their will, while another species (the Andalites) gives a handful of teenagers the ability to morph into animals to combat the Yeerks. The only flaw I can find has been mentioned before: a race whose ideology is purely individualist can't be expect to co-operate and create advanced technology, nor scheme to wage a proxy war through a human nation. The could perhaps use the United States as a testing ground to see if their individualist system would be effective for their own species?
     

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