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  1. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    Amanda Knox

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Tharian, Feb 1, 2014.

    Seems Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have been found guilty by the Italian court once more. However, the treaty between Italy and the USA might not encompass an extradition. It is very possible that the Italian court will decree her guilt, but she will not have to spend a day in prison.

    I have followed the trial through an Italian channel with my parents, and I believe she has been righteously found guilty. Of course, the Italian legitimacy has been put in question, and there was every right to do so. Just like there is every right to come back on their verdict.

    I do wonder, what does the forum think about this? I heard that Amanda Knox was/is glorified in America, which seems absurd to me. Then again, it would not be the first time that an alleged criminal is turned into a perverted commodity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  2. Cogito
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    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I've followed the trials too, and I believe the evidence used to convict her was extremely flawed. The prosecution's case seems absurd and based largely on an untenable assumption of guilt that they won't let go of. And I believe that the prosecution used the Italian press to convict her in the court of public opinion.

    Amanda was clearly no angel. But I don't think she had any part in the murder.
     
  3. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    I pulled up the text of our extradition treaty with Italy, and it looks to me like it would "require" extradition. The double-jeopardy type clause applies to a situation where a person has already been tried in the U.S., but not in the requesting state. That differs from some earlier treaties (such as extradition treaties with the UK) where the exception does apply if they've been tried in the requesting state. Unless the treaty has been changed since the version I pulled up, it supports extradition if requested.

    That said, I put "require" in quotes, above, because ultimately we could say to hell with the treaty and not send her back because of the seriously flawed process in Italy. In fact, that is what I think we should do.
     
  4. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    I wouldn't say that I've followed this story extremely closely -- probably as much as the "typical" American, but it does seem to me that the prosecution's theory was bizarre and doesn't seem likely. From what I recall, it also seemed that the evidence pointed even more strongly toward the guilt of another man -- not Knox or her then-boyfriend.

    Prosecutors here in the U.S. can become just as beholden to their established theory, despite evidence (sometimes significant) to the contrary. So prosecutors with blinders is not something unique to Italy. But my lay-opinion is that is what likely happened here. I don't think Knox will be extradited. Neither country wants a big incident, so something will probably be worked out. But I highly doubt, no matter what happens, Knox will ever be going to Italy again.
     
  5. DPVP
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    DPVP Active Member

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    Considering the prosecutor spent time in jail, was into masonic conspiracies to explain crimes, and was on a witch and demons binge i think it is nuts. the girls real crime seems to be she had a sex drive in a country where for a long time, and this might still be true, it does not count as rape if the woman was wearing pants.

    from my understanding the dubble jeopardy part makes it a non recognized crime, and one no state could moral allow extraction. similar if Islamic state wants someone because they changed religion ( like double jeopardy that exists in some places)

    In summery shows you how serous to take people without a common law background.
     
  6. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    It's hard to believe Italy's justice system is so flawed. (So is ours, but that's another topic.)

    When this case started it had the elements of a few witch hunts that occurred here, the McMartin Preschool trial, the Little Rascal's Daycare trial and the Wenatchee child abuse prosecutions. The prosecutor was convinced he was looking at a Satanic ritual sex orgy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial

    There's a group of advocates in a group called Justice for Meredith Kercher who are absolutely convinced Knox and Sollecito are guilty. It's sad because no one will ever win. Either Knox will be wrongly imprisoned or the Kercher family will always feel justice was not done.

    The evidence against Knox is mostly the confession. But there is a body of evidence that shows if you badger people for hours on end under those conditions, a good proportion of them will make false confessions. It's counterintuitive so people (jury, judges) can't imagine an innocent person would ever make a false confession.

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/False_Confessions__Recording_Of_Custodial_Interrogations.php
    The DNA evidence in the Knox case is garbage. There was blood all over the murder scene, and the admitted killer's blood and DNA was readily found. The amount of DNA that supposedly implicated Knox and Sollecito was an incredibly minute amount of Sollecito's found on Kercher's bra clasp (after it was in police custody for months if I recall correctly). The finding of another ridiculously small bit of Kercher's blood on a knife in Sollecito's house was equally specious, not to mention the knife wasn't the murder weapon.

    Now the news has reported, though I don't know if it is true, that the new jury would have held it against Knox that she didn't return to Italy to defend herself. She had every reason not to return and the second conviction proves she was right.
     
  7. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    I do, though find it interesting that most Italians think she's guilty and most Americans think she's innocent. There sure seems to be a lot of reason to believe that she should not have been convicted.
     
  8. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    From what I've seen of the evidence (not that I've followed it that closely) I think it would be hard to get a conviction in the U.S. I heard a legal expert on NPR saying the DNA evidence they used is so bad you probably couldn't even get it admitted in the U.S.
     
  9. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    What does that mean? Do you say that because she slept with her boyfriend and smoked pot? What other evidence was there that she "was no angel"?
     
  10. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The news media reports on the case. I don't see any other evidence she's "glorified", it's just that it seems like an injustice and she's a young and an empathetic character.

    She lives in the area. As far as I know there are no crowds seeking her out or anything.
     
  11. Steerpike
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    Steerpike Felis amatus Supporter Contributor

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    People get an image of others from media. I haven't seen anything to indicate Amanda Knox is some terrible person. But once the image gets out it is hard to combat. Like with Ryan Ferguson, who is from where I lived in Missouri. My son went to school with him. Nice people, but the public opinion really was established against him early on and it was hard to combat.
     
  12. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh
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    I think it might be the pot thing. I don't know a lot about this case.
     
  13. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    I was in France when this started, the French media didn't really give a crap but we watched a lot of BBC news (I know my bad) but it seemed they didn't know which side to take, their own English victim or their main ally's alleged killer. Reading different country's media at the time it seemed Knox was into some pretty "different" bedroom antics - being 420 friendly didn't make her un-angelic but if you believe the reports, they picked on Kercher because she didn't shave down below, that's pretty fckd up.

    If I remember correctly it was the guy that ran away and was found in Belgium on a train (maybe) that confessed or ratted everyone out - what was his motive other than a plea bargain? The 'evidence' from both sides was so contrasting it was hard to think they were even talking about the same case.
     
  14. GingerCoffee
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    Except for the prosecutor's satanic sex fantasies about Knox, I don't recall her sex practices came up in the trial. I'll have to go back and look. As for making fun of Kercher, since women here don't often shave their lady parts that charge seems off as well. But again, I'd need to review the testimony.
     
  15. GingerCoffee
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    Maybe some of that came from this book:

    Knox Wins £36k Damages Over Sex Claims
    A lot of Knox's behavior at the time of the murder bothered people. When someone doesn't act as people think they should in these circumstances, they attach meaning to the behavior. Sometimes the meaning is there, sometimes it seems like it, but in this case, I don't even see that in the diary entries. If Kercher wasn't a close friend, and you are frankly in shock at it all, you might feel the way Knox described her feelings.
    She had no reason to think the blood was the result of a murder, there wasn't very much and Kercher's bedroom door was locked (I think).


    As for the wild sex:
    There have been studies done that even when false claims are corrected, people often later erroneously remember the falsehood was true.
     
  16. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    As long as her sexual activity didn't include anything illegal it shouldn't matter how wild she got between the sheets. Maybe the unshaven lady-parts was just another story someone latched onto at the time - more misinformation maybe...
     
  17. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Wrong, she spent 4 years in prison after the first conviction before getting the first ruling overturned and a new trial.
     
  18. erebh
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    erebh Contributing Member Contributor

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    Maybe Tharian meant she won't spend "another" day in prison...
     
  19. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Could be, but that isn't what he said. Four years is nothing to sneeze at when a group already over ruled her first guilty verdict.
     
  20. chicagoliz
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    I don't think this is a great article (for example, it says that she'd never have a retrial in the U.S., due to double jeopardy, which isn't true -- she might get a retrial if she appealed. Double jeopardy would only apply if she were acquitted.) But, it does seem to indicate that the prosecutors were obsessed with sex, and that mostly she was guilty of partying and having had sex with several different men.
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/02/01/why_amanda_knox_is_innocent.html
     
  21. chicagoliz
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    chicagoliz Contributing Member Contributor

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    Although most Americans don't seem to believe she's guilty of murder, she's not been glorified. She's been on the talk shows, yes, and the whole 'wrongfully imprisoned in a foreign country' story is always interesting. But I would not say she's been glorified at all.
     
  22. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    I've seen talk shows exploiting her and giving her the opportunity to portray her 'innocence', in other words, a potential murderer gets the chance to achieve populistic glorification. Of course, at the time she was not considered a murderer, but I would have liked to see some caution. She turned the whole ordeal into a commodity by writing a book about it. Most people I speak to in Europe think she is guilty, whereas America supports her simply, in my opinion, because she's American. This is the sensation I'm experiencing, and it is a ghastly one.

    It is what I meant. But if it satisfies you, I will now officially say ''another''.

    ---

    The evidence is under new and serious scrutiny. If they find her guilty, I will not object. It would be very odd if the USA would not uphold their treaty with Italy, seeing as the USA wants extraditions all over the world. The murder happened under Italian law, and the Italian Court will make its verdict accordingly. I believe the evidence heavily implies that Knox was part of the crime, in the form of false alibis, illogical statements, a presumed staged crime and trying to frame anyone that came to her confused mind.

    If she is found not guilty, I can find myself in that, even though I still believe she played a part. Nonetheless, she must face the verdict, which may still take a while.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
  23. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    No need to get stuffy about it. If the roles were reversed and I had made the same mistake, you would have jumped down my throat. There is quite the difference in her spending 4 years in jail as a result of the murder, and her not spending a day in jail.
     
  24. Tharian
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    Tharian Contributing Member

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    I thought it was quite clear that it was said ''from now onward''. @erebh could see it, at least.

    I shall take your word for it. Although I believe Americans and the Dutch have different impressions of things such as glorification.
     
  25. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    At no point does your post say "from now onward."

    This is your original quote, and regardless of what you meant and despite what you said, you are still wrong. The 4 years she spent in prison were still a result of the murder. It wasn't someone else's murder was it?
     
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