Any Other Fantasy Writers Here

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by CrystalDreamer59, Nov 15, 2014.

  1. Lancie

    Lancie Senior Member

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    Thanks :)
     
  2. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

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    As several others have pointed out, fantasy covers a very large range of territory. However, I think the posts here underscore a gross misinterpretation of the full scope of the fantasy genre.

    Fantasy is not just a choice between Eragon or King Arthur. There is so much more to it than wizards and swords and elves and such. And it's not always about the magic. Fantasy encompasses such a broad spectrum of altered reality. Beyond the D&D fantasy, there is Urban Fantasy - A whole new twist on what your eyes cannot believe! With enough imagination, you can even take fantasy into the future if you so choose!
     
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  3. archerfenris

    archerfenris Active Member

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    Indeed. The genre, literally is, anything you can imagine.
     
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I like fantasy, as well as other genres. As people have noted, above, "fantasy" is so broad as to cover a huge swath of territory, from literary fiction to the most commercial fiction.

    Beowulf, The Tempest, The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost...
    Tolkien, Lord Dunsany, Mervyn Peake, Angela Carter...
    R.A. Salvatore, George R. R. Martin, Robert Jordan...

    All fantasy.
     
  5. stevesh

    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    If it has horses and swords in it, it's a fantasy, unless it also has a rocketship in it, in which case it becomes science fiction. The only thing that'll turn a story with a rocketship in it back into fantasy is the Holy Grail.
    - Debra Doyle
     
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  6. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    In that case, "fantasy" is not a very helpful term at all.
     
  7. Keitsumah

    Keitsumah The Dream-Walker Contributor

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    Since when is any word then? Fantasy... it's defined as our greatest desires. What we wish to see and know, but we can only create in our minds. So then all books are fantasy -not just the ones with magic and dragons. We just call it that for the sake of order.
     
  8. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Oooh, I write fantasy. :)

    I don't really know what kind of fantasy I write, if we're going to label it.. I have one high fantasy I'm writing, but all of my others are pretty low fantasy. I like the real-world-meets-magical-world fantasy stories. My MC is almost always human who meets fantastical creatures. I also like unhappily-ever-after endings, so a lot of my novels end in an unexpected manner.. or so I hope. :p
     
  9. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It's helpful, just broad. There are subgenres within fantasy if you want to narrow it.
     
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  10. Keitsumah

    Keitsumah The Dream-Walker Contributor

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    I believe that's called Urban fantasy?
     
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  11. Lea`Brooks

    Lea`Brooks Contributor Contributor

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    Thank you! :D
     
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  12. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I would say that Dante and Robert Jordan have nothing in common.
     
  13. Fitzroy Zeph

    Fitzroy Zeph Contributor Contributor

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    If you mean fantasizing about having a book eventually published, count me in.
     
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  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Sure they do. Both have supernatural/mythical elements. The action takes place in other than the real world in both cases. If you have supernatural elements, magic, or a setting that is non-existent, that's sufficient for fantasy.
     
  15. TheApprentice

    TheApprentice Senior Member

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    Wait...

    Isn't "Science Fantasy" a genre? Or is it really still Scifi?
     
  16. Keitsumah

    Keitsumah The Dream-Walker Contributor

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    That is where things get a bit complicated... never heard of such a genre and i doubt there is. When things have both fantasy and scifi in them, it often comes down to what audience the book is most aimed towards. It's really up to the publisher to figure out the genre so no worries. Just write the story and everything else will be done for you.

    Or so they want us to believe...
     
  17. lhjfoster

    lhjfoster New Member

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    Not strictly fantasy, but it is by far my favourite! Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones etc. Anything with a sword and a shield, orcs and wizards, evil plots to destroy all beings fighting for peace! The possibilities are endless in the world of fantasy!
     
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  18. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Supporter Contributor

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    When I think of high fantasy, I think of one characteristic, and it's something I've mentioned on this forum before.

    In high fantasy, the fantasy element is that there is only one problem to solve, and only one solution to it. For example, in LOTR, the big problem is that evil Sauron is going to take over Middle-Earth. The only solution, the only way to stop this, is to destroy the One Ring, and the only way to do that is to drop it into the volcano in Mordor. This, of course, is more difficult than it sounds, but that's what it takes. In Harry Potter, the problem is Voldemort, and the solution is to kill Voldemort. In both cases, and in other fantasy cases, if you implement the solution, Everything will be All Right.

    This is not a reflection of the real world. In the real world, there is no One Big Problem, with One Big Solution. In the real world, we have thousands, maybe millions, of problems. In the real world, you toss the One Ring into the volcano in Mordor, and you say, "Great. One problem down, 768,000 to go. Next, we work on climate change. Then world hunger. Eventually, ebola."

    That's fantasy. Fantasy appeals to young people because the solution to the Big Problem is easy - not physically easy, but conceptually easy. The heroes can triumph utterly, because there are no other big problems to solve. When Jack the Giant Slayer defeats the giants, he gets a medal from the king, the hand of the princess in marriage, a parade, and they all live happily ever after. There are no more big problems, so a win is a WIN for all time.

    Real life doesn't work that way. That's why I think fantasy is so popular.
     
  19. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    The easiest definition between science fiction and fantasy, is this: In science fiction the concepts constrain the story.

    Star Trek is sci-fi, because the concepts that it proposes (although unscientific) are clearly defined, and present constant obstacles to the characters/plot/story. Characters cannot use the transporter whenever they feel like. The fuel requirements of warp speed are defined, as well as their use. Even the food preparation causes monumental problems for the characters to deal with.

    Star Wars is fantasy, because no limits are ever applied. The problems with building a spaceship bigger then Phobos? Never mentioned. The output of an energy source strong enough to demolish a planet? Apparently not enough of a concern to warrant protective eye wear.
    [​IMG]

    Even the time it takes to travel from one planet to the next never puts limits on the story. Characters are able to travel any distance in a cut scene, and arrive when the plot demands it anywhere else.
     
  20. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Both also have air and humans. While Dante's Inferno is rooted in history, Christianity, and Earth, and has intentions beyond self gratification, you and I both know the Wheel of Time series has none of that. It's absolutely absurd to fit both works in the same category, and that is why I maintain that your definition of "fantasy" is not a useful one.

    If someone asks what you're reading, and you say "fantasy," almost anyone will be assuming Wheel of Time over Dante's Inferno. It's just not a helpful definition.
     
  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Nope, that's what fantasy is, at it's core-wish fulfillment. Novels can have many aims-to teach, to amuse, to satirize, to evoke emotion, to stimulate intellectually. Fantasy is escapism. Not only fantasy is escapism, and I'm sure not all fantasy novels are only about escapism, but most are, by definition, as you kind of hinted. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's pointless to try to relate fantasy to other genres of novels.

    If it were up to me, I would redefine some of these genres. I'd either categorize based on setting -historical, contemporary, futuristic, speculative, alternative, or other (fantasy)-, or, I'd base on motive of the piece- historical, mystery, horror, comedy, romance, thriller, drama, speculative, or completely make believe (fantasy).
     
  22. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Air and humans aren't variables that define fantasy, so that's irrelevant. That fantasy is as broad as I said is empirically demonstrable if you go look at the fantasy shelves in a book store. Not all of it even has magic or supernatural elements of any kind. A story about a guy going to visit purgatory, hell, and heaven seems to me to be squarely in the realm of fantasy, even though "Classics" are generally shelved in Literature. If you have a proposed, non-arbitrary definition of fantasy that distinguishes Dante from stories set in places like Hell and shelved in fantasy, please share it.
     
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  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I think the Debra Doyle comment was a joke. Some people might label Star Wars as science fantasy, but I think it is just fantasy. Star Trek is closer to science fantasy, if you want to use that term.
     
  24. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Getting to a broader point about how to define genre, it seems to me that the best definitions are objective definitions based on content of the genre as a whole, and the least valuable definitions are personal definitions based on what individuals like or dislike. Usually, when this kind of conversation arises about what constitutes fantasy, it turns out that some people have a personal bias against fantasy, and their measuring stick ends up being anything that they like or feel has importance or merit can't be included within the fantasy genre. I think most here will agree that's a nonsensical approach to the problem.

    Looking at how publishers market works or where bookstores shelve them is better, but not dispositive. There is plenty of overlap in the genres, and you'll find fantasy or science fiction novels that read like thrillers, works shelved in Romance that are also fantasy or science fiction. Mervyn Peake's work Gormenghast is a seminal fantasy novel that is sometimes shelved in literature. Angela Carter's The Bloody Tower is almost always shelved in literature, probably because it is social commentary and taught in college courses, but she's not even hiding the fact that she's writing fantasy because the whole book consists of retellings of fairy tales.

    A good starting place is to look at everything that is actually shelved in fantasy and widely considered fantasy, and then to try to pick out some defining features. As I noted above, this leads to a broad category. Peake, mentioned above, has no supernatural elements. There is no magic, there are no unearthly creatures. The cast are a bunch of eccentric human beings. The element that makes it fantasy is that the setting is completely invented - an enormous castle called Gormenghast.

    Likewise, Guy Gavriel Kay, who is always shelved in fantasy from what I've seen, has works with no supernatural elements. Some of his works are basically historical fiction, except they take place in an alternate, made-up Europe (or elsewhere). For example, The Lions of Al-Rassan is commentary of a real historical time period and events in Europe, but is in an alternate, invented version of Europe. It is considered fantasy. The Washington Post, in reviewing The Lions of Al-Rassan, fell into the trap of equating fantasy and merit, saying:

    "Books like The Lions of Al-Rassan or Tigana are hard to pigeonhole as "fantasy" because they offer fast-paced adventure, psychological and even historical insight, and evocative even poetic writing that carries a powerful universal appeal."

    The Post's opinion aside, Kay is shelved in fantasy, and Tigana has overt magic elements, though The Lions of Al-Rassan does not. Another reviewer noted that The Lions of Al-Rassan would be considered a fine historical novel except for the fact that the world in which it is set is invented.

    So that's one end of the "fantasy" spectrum. Magic isn't needed. Nor is the supernatural. On the other extreme, you have wholly made-up worlds where wizards throw fireballs and dragons swoop down from mountainsides to engulf villages in flames. Somewhere in between, you have things like Urban fantasy, that are set ostensibly in the real world, but with the presupposition that fairies or other mythology creatures are real and living, hidden, among us. Jo Walton's Among Others is such a book, and the presence of faerie in that book is largely understated. In truth, the story is more about the protagonist coping with the death of her sister, and her transformation throughout the story.

    If we want to have a coherent definition of fantasy, we have to account for all of these. The only constant, really, is that the story takes place in other than the real world. It may be a wholly made-up setting, or an alternate take on the real world. Supernatural elements are common, but not required.

    Under any definition of fantasy that is broad enough to actually encompass everything that is shelved as "fantasy," you're invariably going to sweep up works like Beowulf and The Divine Comedy. That is, a definition based on subject matter is going to sweep those up. Any mythological story, or classic work incorporating mythology, is by broad definition fantasy. The fantasy shelves even contain some re-telling of these, though they sometimes get shelved with literature (I've seen John Gardner's excellent novel Grendel shelved in both).

    If you say fantasy has to include magic, then you eliminate works that have long been shelved in fantasy and are considered as such by readers and publishers. Even if you include the supernatural requirement, you're still going to have works like Beowulf, The Tempest, and The Divine Comedy within the mix.

    Given the breadth of the fantasy genre empirically (i.e. based on what is on the shelves labeled fantasy), the only definition I can come up with that applies to all of it is that it be set in a world other than the real one. If anyone has a better definition to propose that still includes everything that is actually out there in the fantasy genre, I'm open to it.

    As for science fiction, in my view science fiction has to be consistent with known scientific principles and laws, or on reasonable extrapolations therefrom. This is why Star Wars is basically fantasy in space.

    The rocket-ship definition, which I take to be a joke, makes no sense, because there are novels that are clear fantasy novels, with magic and even elves or orks, that have rocket ships in them.
     
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  25. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with your problem. I don't agree with your solution. Categories are meant to help sell books and communicate interest. Sure , technically speaking, Inferno and Wheel of Time share some qualities, but how much of the same readership do they share? Scholars read not Dante, not Robert Jordan. That is not arbitrary.

    All your argument on breadth really tells me is that fantasy ough to be devided. Gormenghast has no business being lumped together with Wheel of Time or most fantasy novels. They ought to redefine the genre. "Fantasy" could lose a few hundred novels, like gormenghast, and we can just rename the remaining thousands, "make believe fun" eg, fantasy with no literary value. The garbage like Wheel of Time, is so vast, that it deserves it's own category,
     

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