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  1. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    Any Planet Fitness Members?

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by stevesh, Mar 8, 2015.

  2. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    If it were "some dude hanging out" I'd have an issue with it. But if it's someone who identifies as female getting changed? Nope, no problem. That's what the room is for.
     
  3. stevesh
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    stevesh Banned Contributor

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    So, that's one vote for, "I don't care if some creepy pervert in a Halloween wig and plus-sized undies from Lane Bryant scams his way into the womens' locker room to stare at my (and maybe my young daughter's) nakedness." I admire your sang-froid, if not your political correctness.
     
  4. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    This wasn't a one-time deal. There's no reason to believe it was a scam. Both members were known to management, and management made the call.

    If you'd prefer an argument from a more right-wing direction, how about: The free market allows businesses to provide services on their own terms. This business chose not to provide services to a certain customer. In Conservative Land, that's their absolute right, isn't it? Or does that right only apply when businesses are refusing service to gay people?
     
  5. Chinspinner
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    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't know. I can understand why it would make people feel uncomfortable. But then is she going to start getting her knickers in a twist that their might be a *gasp* lesbian in the changing room? Her reaction seems a bit silly to me.
     
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  6. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    So, our society seems to have two assumptions:

    - Everyone is comfortable being naked in front of people that can't possibly be sexually attracted to them.
    - Nobody can possibly be sexually attracted to the same sex.

    All this fuss seems to be about the Oh My God! discovery that the second is not true, and the dogged determination to continue to pretend that it's true.

    It's not true. It's time to accept that. And I would say that the first assumption is not true, either. Some people are not at all comfortable being naked or underclothed in front of strangers, whether the possibility of sexual attraction is involved or not.

    It may be that as part of becoming a society where discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation is eliminated, we may have to (Oh My GOD!!!) start providing privacy in bathrooms and locker rooms.

    The horror.

    Edited to add "is eliminated", because my second to last paragraph made no sense before.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
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  7. Talisien
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    Talisien Member

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    Personally I would not have had a problem in this particular case. If it was obvious that the man was trans-gender I would have been more sympathetic than offended.
     
  8. Chinspinner
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    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak Sod privacy, I would just say get over nakedness. I'm really not all that fussed who sees my knob in a gym changing room.
     
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  9. Wreybies
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    Wreybies The Ops Pops Operations Manager Staff Contest Administrator Supporter Contributor

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    No, it would not bother me, but I have a practiced lack of body shame. Though we are not unique in this trait, when compared to most of our European counterparts whence we descend culturally as a nation, Americans are wildly prudish as regards nudity taboos. Nudity taboos create the negative end outcomes they claim to protect against. When I lived in Berlin, the first time my friend Jessica invited me to the Wannsee Beach (it's on a river) for a day in the water and a picnic with a large group of her friends, she was hesitant. We had changed in front of one another before going out clubbing so many times that seeing her boobs was like seeing an elbow. Her concern was that the wieners on display would get the better of me and I would lapse into typical ogling American rudeness. I promised I would watch myself, and though it took a little bit to ignore the sausage fest and hooter parade, I did finally and it was so liberating and fun. It became a regular thing and I still have friends today from that time. I don't recall meeting any other Americans, let alone GI's on the beach any time we went.

    You say that this issue is one of the down sides of gender identity. I say that body shame, which to me comes prior in this paradigm, is one of the most heinous taboos we have ever enacted upon ourselves and is the source of much inequality and subjugation in the name of "protection".
     
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  10. KaTrian
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    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Of course there will always be people who complain, although in her case she seemed to be concerned of her safety rather than someone seeing her bare butt:

    My initial response: it's not the gym's responsibility, woman, it's your responsibility to protect yourself. But then again, I'd imagine most women don't think about this stuff the way I do, so whatever.

    Either way, if this happened to me, I might ask the staff about it. If they said he's transgender, I'd go back and change. I have mastered the noble art of changing-without-flashing, anyway, so I can do it without showing any more than I would on a hot summer's day if I was unsure.
     
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  11. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    I agree that I would be taken aback by seeing a man in the women's locker room. I would probably confront the staff, at least ask about it. Unless the man was very clearly transgender, I think it would be poor judgement not to. But all I would do is ask, not complain. If the staff told me that he was in fact transgender, I would have no problem whatsoever.

    I would also like to point out that this is incredibly offensive. As someone said above, there is no reason to believe that this is a scam. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and hope you aren't calling transgender people "creepy perverts" who dress up as and try to be near women. Hopefully this was just an attempt at being funny that I misinterpreted.
     
  12. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    Why does the abnormal have to be pushed on the normal? There are so few incidents where this sort of stuff occurs that an exception can be made for the individual and not have it affect the rest of the population. Should schools make fifty percent of the desks in classrooms left handed desks because there might be one or two lefties in the class, or should they have some desks available to accommodate.

    Now, before everybody lights the torches and chases Garball into the castle for having the nerve to call transgender people not normal; it is not normal per the definition.
     
  13. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    I don't understand how you're combining the idea that "there are so few incidents where this sort of stuff occurs that an exception can be made for the individual and not have it affect the rest of the population" with the idea of the unusual being "pushed on" the usual. How is this not just one of the exceptions being made for an individual? This male-bodied person is an exception to the general rule, and will therefore be allowed to change in the women's change room. I don't think that affects the rest of the population, does it?

    And your left-handed desk analogy goes several steps too far, I'd say. No one's suggesting that half of anything be changed to accommodate transsexuals. Allowing a trans-woman to use the women's change room, regardless of how far her transition has gone, is more equivalent to, say, letting a left-handed person into the classroom at all. No special furniture needed, no attention or accommodations or anything unusual. Just a person trying to get changed and work out.
     
  14. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    Because making an exception for the individual has an impact on the entire locker room. If you want to cater to an individual, remodel a closet.
    How are you not changing anything for the accommodation? It is normal for a female to expect to be in a change room with other females; changing this dynamic might not be a structural change, but it does affect the others. Nobody is saying you can't workout at the gym.

    I'm sorry I'm not sorry that an individual who decides to make such drastic changes ostracizes themselves from some normalcy. Every choice we make has some sort of repercussions whether they are positive or negative. I had a cook who wanted neck tattoos while I was working in a very high end private club. I told him he could get all of the facial and neck tats his heart desired; he just couldn't work at the club with them. Why? Because we had to interact with the members on a regular basis and they would be turned off by his appearances. Sorry.
     
  15. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Ah, it comes down to the old "choice" thing. This person chose to be transsexual. It sounded like it'd be a lot of fun!

    And for what it's worth, I wouldn't have a problem if my food was prepared by a cook with face and neck tattoos, but I can see how, as a business, the club you worked for had to make the decision that was in the best interest of their business. Just like the gym in this case made the decision it felt was in the best interest of THEIR business. Seriously, if one company has the right to refuse employment, surely another company has the right to refuse membership?
     
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  16. 123456789
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    123456789 Contributing Member Contributor

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    Oh, look what we have here....

    :whistle:
     
  17. ChickenFreak
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    ChickenFreak Contributing Member Contributor

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    How is that different from, "I'm not sorry that an individual who decides to have such extreme views (that is, the extreme view of not wanting to change in front of a transgender gym member) ostracizes themselves from some normality." ?

    If you ignore other people's needs, you may find that your needs are ignored as well.

    Edited to add: I still vote for privacy. It would cost some money, but it doesn't have to be taken to the point of individual changing rooms with doors for every single person. If the majority is comfortable changing in the open, they can change in the open. For those that aren't, the gym could put up a few curtained enclosures, and people who want privacy can wait for access to one of them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  18. Garball
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    Garball Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. Supporter Contributor

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    Garball out. I promised myself to avoid these situations on a writing site. Y'all almost had me, though.
     
  19. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Wow, damn. We didn't catch you in our snares! Curses, foiled again.
     
  20. Lea`Brooks
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    Lea`Brooks Contributing Member Contributor

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    @Garball, I know you said you're out... But I just wanted to point out that I don't think you understand what transgenders truly are.

    By definition, transgender, to quote Wikipedia, "is the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex." It means that a man literally feels like a woman trapped inside a man's body. It's not that they WANT to be women -- it's that they feel they ARE women. Transgender folks aren't gay men in drag who decide to take it to the next level. They are men and women trapped in the body of the opposite gender. But to make a solid argument, one must bring up the whole "born-with vs. choice" discussion which I don't feel like doing at the moment.

    But basically, I want you to try to put yourself in this person's shoes. You are a boy. You look like a boy, you think like a boy, you feel like a boy. You ARE a boy. Now I want you to imagine having people tell you, no, you're not a boy. You're a girl. You have a wear make-up and dresses and change in the women's locker room (please [all men] ignore the urge to be excited about this) and use the women's restroom and go by a woman's name. It's uncomfortable, right? Because you know you aren't a woman. You're a boy.

    That's how transgender people feel. They feel they are born to be a male or female but are simply born with the wrong parts. Fortunately, we live in a day and age where parts can be removed and replaced, so yay for them! But unfortunately, there are still many people alive who were raised differently, more "traditionally," and it's harder for them to accept what isn't "normal." They'll eventually learn that their definition of "normal" is changing drastically.

    I don't know if we can really fault those people. I know it seems like they're spewing hatred or bigotry or whatever else. But for the most part, I don't think that's the case. I personally think it just comes down to ignorance, which literally means "lacking knowledge or information." People hate and fear what they don't understand. And many people, science included, don't understand exactly what makes someone gay or straight or bisexual or transgender. And that can be scary. But it doesn't mean it's bad.

    The way I try to look at it -- If it harms no one, do whatever you'd like.

    Gay marriage, gay adoption, transgender women in women's locker rooms... Who does that hurt? No one.


    Edited to add: You really should watch Orange is the New Black -- Laverne Cox is a real transgender woman playing a transgender woman in a woman's prison.
     
  21. Adenosine Triphosphate
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    Adenosine Triphosphate Old Scratch Contributor

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    My first thought upon reading this is that I'm not entirely certain if gender segregation is even necessary at this point. Gay people are already allowed to share locker rooms and bathroom facilities with people of the same gender, and that seems to defeat the "we don't want people looking at each other" justification for it. Perhaps it would be better simply to integrate them and provide greater privacy.

    Thoughts?
     
  22. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    I can see why you don't come into the debate room very often. As far as I understand gender dimorphia the transgender in the room isn't even attracted to the other women.

    Unless she is gay of course, and then how is it different than letting a lesbian into the changing rooms?
     
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  23. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    There have been co-ed bathrooms in university residences for quite a while (at least where I went to school) and the world managed to not end. So, yeah, maybe it is time to get rid of the segregation.
     
  24. outsider
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    outsider Contributing Member Contributor

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    And to think I gave this thread a wide berth initially because I thought it was some gym bunny 'what do you press?' thread.
    Bit of a minefield this isn't it?
    I have no issue whatsoever with transgender people and empathise entirely with their predicament. However, I must be honest and say if I happened upon this situation with my children I would feel awkward and have a few questions I'd rather not have to address to answer.
    Shoot me if that's not as politically correct as we'd like it to be, but it's the truth.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2015
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  25. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    But in this case the questions were asked and answered, right?

    I mean, I don't think there's a problem with asking the questions. I just think there's a problem with not accepting the answers you get.
     
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