Are you sexist when you develop characters?

I felt like I was having this problem with one protagonist, but then I thought about him and tried to condense his personality into a few words. He's very motivated and driven, confident, usually very serious but not that smart. He's not really like me at all. I think it was just because I projected myself into him in order to accurately get his reactions to events.

There's no such thing as good sexism. It might be good for someone who is the subject of positive discrimination (i.e. "We need to fill the quota for hiring women so call that girl and tell her she got the job"), but ultimately it is unfair and thus bad.

I understand your point about men and women being different, because I share that belief. I however think that the difference between men and women is irrelevant considering the great variations in character of people of the same sex.

 

I get it. You just mean you have a preference towards men in your characterisations, right? You're just more capable at working from the male template when you create a character. I'm the same way. When working a female character I have to try harder to avoid stereotypes, because I'm not as confident as I am with males.

Unfortunately everyone is a feminism watchdog these days. in "The Greatest Show on Earth" Richard Dawkins says how he thinks feminists did a good job raising people's consciousnesses to the subtle ways in which women are brought down in everyday life, and he was right, but now it's one of those things that everyone is hyper-aware about.

How about we settle down, folks? No one is saying that all the fictional women these days need to go back to the kitchen.

 

I'm astonished at the casual sexism all over this thread. OK so you might have had certain life experience that mean you feel more drawn to men, but why does this lead you to the conclusion that they are more interesting human beings than women? Could it be that you find men so enigmatic and alluring because you are a heterosexual woman??

The fact that a couple of posters also seem intent in justifying their sexist views and digging even bigger holes is even more surprising. Isn't it better to try to rationalise why your views might be deemed offensive by people rather than trying to convince others that there's a valid reason behind your unusual views? If I had negative views that were badly received I would have a word with myself as to how I might be bias in some way and probably refrain from broadcasting said views.

Just to add a bit of balance in case men think that most women think like psychadelicangel, all of the strongest and most interesting people in my life are women, probably by a ratio to men of about 5:2. I don't find myself competing with women or being unstoppably critical about their appearance or personalities. The best times of my life have been time spent travelling with female friends. I also love spending time with my boyfriend but why does there have to be a choice/preference between the two?

As for women being tedious/tiresome, what can be more tiresome than mens' constant quest to get laid? Maybe this is the root of why you feel so cosy when you get close to men psychadelicangel? Is there more going on in these 'enlightening' experiences than you may have thought at the time? A few (sadly educated) men have said to my face in the past that they don't think they could be friends with a woman without there being a sexual interest. Is this because I socialise with idiots or because a lot of men feel this way? i don't know.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. I just wanted to balance the views here because I think my standpoint is far more representative of how women feel in general about other women than the strange bias views borne out in this thread.

I don't have any problem embarking upon developing a lead female character who is not a lust object or prop. In fact, most of my female characters have some sort of personality trait or physical trait Iwhether unnattractive or otherwise) which makes them unique or memorable, far from your 'boring' irritating buddies and no-substance female characters...

Good luck getting published with views like that. Maybe you should set your novels in a male prison.

 

Ha, I'm the other way around. I'm male, and I have to force myself to write guys because it's more fun writing women.

Actually, I think this is kinda common. I've talked to plenty of writers who have this kind of gender preference.

We're actually not, but we don't mind you thinking we are.

 

It's because, as I said before, my experiences with men have been generally better than they have been with women, so I'm drawn to them more. Doesn't it make sense that if you've had a better experience with A as opposed to B, you would be more drawn to A?
And if you had read my posts, you would know that I already suggested my heterosexuality as a possible factor of my interest in men.

This is much too broad. You could support gay marriage and have a bunch of homophobes bashing you, but does that make them right as opposed to you? What's wrong with having 'unusual views'? Do I have to conform to others' views? This is the beauty of free speech, and it seems like you're telling me that I shouldn't utilize it.

This is because people are different. So you've had great experiences with women, I've had great experiences with men, so what? I'm sure both you and I have had great experiences with both sexes in fact, although the great times with men stand out to me and the great times with women stand out to you. It's a completely personal issue. I wouldn't have a "choice/preference" between the two if my experiences had been equal, but they haven't been, as I've made clear.
I also don't think it's fair to pidgeon-hole my views by saying that most women don't think like me. It may be true, it may not be, but how would you know and why would it matter in this sort of conversation? As I keep saying, it's an opinion-based issue, and everyone is different.
I never said that I compete with the women in my life, and I didn't say that I'm critical of their appearances. I think you should be more careful with your wording, as I've come to realize I should be as well.

... I really hope you're not suggesting something about me and my personal life here. Can you please explain this? Because as of right now, you're telling me that I'm more interested in men purely because of sex. The only time I mentioned sex was when I said that I was a heterosexual female, and I'd like you to explain my "cosy" feelings and the "'enlightening' experiences" you claim that I've had. I'm just positive that I haven't mentioned anything like this, and I'm trying not to let you put words in my mouth.

The point of posting on forums is to express personal opinions! It doesn't matter that your standpoint may be representative of how women feel in general, as you believe it is. I wasn't trying to represent the entire female population with my response, and again, I believe I made that very clear.

Okay, look. At this point, you're just blatantly insulting me. The point of this thread is to discuss an issue, not shoot other people down over their views of it. I'm responding clearly and logically to what you said, and I hope you'll do the same in the future instead of just trying to beat me down over it. I find what you said to be very offensive, and I think you should probably step back and examine your views, like you suggested I should.

And thank you, Nackl of Gilmed. I'm just being misunderstood, and you pretty much simplified it for me.

 

I never really have this problem. My ideas tend to vary between whether or not there's a girl, a guy or both as the main character.

Although I do have a strong dislike for girls that are the stereotypical wimpy, timid, "I'll do whatever you say" kind of women. Which is probably why most of my female characters come out to be some degree of a tomboy like myself. However, if I need it, I can develop a stereotypical female character.

 

I don't specifically think about the gender of characters when I come up with them. I write more males than I do females. I find male characters more interesting in fiction than females, by far (whether this is my fault or the fault of writers, who knows).

Male characters generally work much better in the type of thing I like to read / write about. I would say that male characters are far more interesting than females on average. I'd have to think pretty hard to come up with one of my favourite female characters in anything. So I don't really buy the "female characters are just as interesting as males because everyone's equal!" line when it comes to fiction.

For a main character I find it matters less what gender I use. I think the number of times I've used a male main character just slightly outnumbers the times I've used a female one, and I can't really think of why I chose one over the other. But for other major characters who aren't the main characters, the number of females drops substantially. Characters who shape my story the way I want it are just mostly male. And I feel that trying to force in a few more female characters "just because" would be more sexist than just writing the story the way it comes to me.

 

I don't have that problem. For me gender identity is a social construct for the most part, for both men and women. What I keep in mind is the yin and yang, in that for every male belief there will be a woman with the same kinds of beliefs. You can see plenty of examples of this in society in the movies. For example, look at Sweeney Todd and the female counterpart to him in there. For every man that gets off on tearing couples apart, there will be a woman who does the same thing, as in the song Naughty Girls Need Love Too as performed by Samantha Fox. For every man that believes men are superior to women just by virtue of being male, there are women who believe that women are superior to men by virtue of being female, and that is called Militant Feminism. And so on, and do forth. So no, I don't really have that kind of problem in writing female characters. Their personalities and motivations are just as varied as men and influenced by the same factors as men, which social values, family values, personal experiences, and geographical location.

 

Tell me what's offensive about my sticking up for women and I'll answer you.

I didn't mean to be offensive but I am sick to the back teeth of misogyny in literature. The fact that it comes from a woman is even more disheartening and doesn't do much good to the cause even if you purport that 'all men and women are equal we all know that." Well no, in fact, how can women be equal when there are views like this which blatantly revere men above women.

Ok so it's your personal opinion, just don't expect it to be accepted and unchallenged because you felt the need to share. By the tone of your OP it sounds like you knew you were already handling a hot potato. If you'd just limited it to your enjoyment of writing men it wouldn't have been offensive. What i didn't understand was when you starting slamming the character of women and how you don't ever enjoy being around them, finding them tedious, irritating and boring.

To get this back to writing, because I didn't mean to shout you down. I think you should really challenge your propensity to write male characters due to your fascination with them. It might really hinder your chances of getting published. I would hazard a guess that most editors are liberal in their views. If the women in your novel are merely props this doesn't bode well for a well rounded book.

Anyway, Tony Blair is giving evidence to the Iraq Inquiry so I'm off to watch him squirm.

 

Again, this all comes down to one simple fact. PEOPLE are individuals. There are some differences in gender, but one is not more multifaceted or stronger than the other.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I was beginning to wonder.

 

I realise you didn't mean to cause any offence, but you have to be very careful as what you are saying IS completely sexist. You are making generalizations about the whole human race, completely inaccurate ones at that. Just as it is unacceptable to post racist comments on here, I think sexist comments are completely unacceptable too, regardless of your 'personal opinion'.

If you are unsure about whether you are being sexist or not, substitute the word 'women' for a racial term for example 'white people' and see how it reads. A little uncomfortable I would think.

It is obviously fine to have your own personal opinions, but if they are sexist/racist/homophobic, etc then it's probably best to keep them to yourself, otherwise be prepared to get a bit of backlash.

From a very multi-faceted and strong woman.

BTW if you need help writing female characters that aren't dull, lifeless, no personality, etc I suggest you read some decent books which don't represent them as such. Reading some Virginia Woolf, Jeanette Winterson, Angela Carter, Lionel Shriver (or other great female authors) wouldn't do you any harm!

 

Ugh, this is why I hate PC crap. We aren't allowed to have generalized stereotypes about people because some people may not fit into those stereotypes thus are offended by said stereotype.

Maybe all the men Psyche, has met are multi-faceted, interesting, intense types of men, and all the women in her life seem dull, boring and lifeless... That is her experience in life, and her generalizing about the experiences in her life, stereotyping the types of people she has had personal experience with, shouldn't be frowned upon.

Since we are talking characters, this is the type of point of view stuff that should be discussed. Each character, while an individual, will show some traits of different stereotypes, otherwise stereotypes would be a useless thing, much like profiling a serial killer, they all have common traits that cops look for, even if they are different people.

Characters that have depth will also still have stereotypes of their own, so it is important to be able to explore what our own stereotypes and generalizations are. But to jump on the "Oooh, I'm offended because you might be offending someone else out there in the world with your non-pc types of attitudes...because we want to deny the pink elephant in the room called stereotypes."bandwagon is just ignoring the fact that all people stereotype.

We all stereotype. It is a normal human brain mechanism for sorting out the world around us. We are naturally drawn into seeing patterns in the world, that is just how our monkey minds work. We observe things, we classify things, then we can later make assumptions when confronted with similar things in how to react, or classify them.

We do the same thing with people. People, while each individuals, will have some pattern behaviors in common with other types of individuals.

As to the original poster's comments.

You may be ignoring your female characters for a couple of reasons, A) You would be jealous of them if you wrote them to be better women than you see yourself as, B) You find yourself dull and boring, thus that is what kind of female you write, C) You are not well enough in touch with your own emotions and your own mind and thoughts to write a female character effectively...and you haven't observed other women close enough with an analytical pov to decipher their emotions, behavior patterns, and thought processes.

Something that helps me with my characters is that I look at them as my children. I am creating these people, but from their experiences, their own personalities, their own behavior habits formed, they will do what they want and act as they want, and I can control it, unlike real children who you can't control.

If I create a dull, boring character, I stop and think why I did that. Does it have an impact on the story? What was the purpose behind creating this character to be lifeless? If I don't have good answers to that, I go over what I've created for them as a life. Maybe to get more life out of them now I need to give them a challenge in their past, something that would create the brain pattern to give me something interesting now. Habits can be anything, and habits make people interesting.

You have to focus your attention down from the grand general words like, strong, confident, interesting, fun, and things like multi-faceted, and bring it down to a level you can actually work with, the smaller details that lead to those larger boxes.

If you want an interesting female character, you have to define what you think is interesting. If you want a strong female character (mentally or physically or both) you have to define what you think makes a person strong. If you want multi-faceted, you have to define what that means for you. Then apply those things you define as traits that those larger phrases encompass.

Characters are all in the details, but they have to be choice details, only a few key details that give the overall general idea.

OP...If you'd like to discuss some psychological aspects of character development with me you can feel free to pm me.

 

OK, while we're at it then, would it be acceptable for me, as a Scottish person, to say that all Americans are fat, undereducated, completely xenophobic and stupid?

In my experience, I have met quite a lot of Americans who fall into this category. Is it alright for me to generalise all Americans in this way? I'm guessing that you would say no. If you say it is acceptable then there is something really wrong with you. I would never say such things about 300 million people, but you would have me do so because I've got carte blanche over my own loud mouthed opinions based on my personal experience. F*** personal experience if it means perpetuating unrepresentative hateful bile.

So, why is it okay to be completely offensive about 50+% of the global population. Why are women fair game for puerile cultural stereotypes? To go a step further I wouldn't even say that women ARE stereotyped as boring, irritating and dull. What planet are you on?? This is a minority, bigoted view... since when did it become a globalised/homogenous 'stereotype'??

If you'd actually grasped the critique of the OP's comments, you'd see that we weren't saying that we shouldn't write characters who are bias, stereotyped or generalised. What we had an issue with was the OP's justification for writing women who are dull, irritating and insipid, namely, that women are like that in real life!?

You said:

"Oooh, I'm offended because you might be offending someone else out there in the world with your non-pc types of attitudes...because we want to deny the pink elephant in the room called stereotypes."bandwagon is just ignoring the fact that all people stereotype."

No, I am PERSONALLY OFFENDED, I'm not offended because someone else 'might' be offended. Are you saying that most women would lie down and agree that all women are weaker, less interesting and more boring than men?

Get a grip on reality! You are COMPLETELY out of line and you don't deserve to breed if you are promoting stereotypes as being something beneficial to your kids.

There might be a few stereotypes that could be levied at you and your own kids. How would you like it then?

 

Ok, this has outlived calm discussion, and has gotten way off topic.