Being politically correct

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by JennyM, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    Ed, I'm pretty burned out on the topic, especially after I read Kathleen Parker's editorial this morning.

    But you're a fair guy, and I promise to read it thoroughly.
     
  2. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    I'm not American but I'll chip in. I would use the pc vs non -pc terms for characterisation. Have the bad guys and the ignorant, head in the sand people use derogatory terms of the time, and have the hero and allies use a more pc term like an archaic version of "natives" or "first people" or some such. Also make sure you portray significant characters who are natives themselves. Furthermore, American Indians/Natives had the most democratic politics, much more so than what we consider "democracy" today. It's really quite fascinating how fair and productive their ways of government were. That can also serve to highlight primitive bigotry in antagonistic characters.

    Showing a modern-style sensitivity to human rights can work very well to glorify the hero in historical novels, whilst, at the same time, providing a good example to the readers of what's the fundamental difference between right and wrong.
     
  3. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    Bearing in mind, of course, that even for heroes, terms we consider racist today were simply common terms back then. Huck Finn was certainly the hero, but he used the common vernacular and retained many of the thoughts of the 'lesser' characters even as he moved away from others. That's just the way it was back then.
     
  4. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    bimber...
    where have you heard that?... who do you think say it and why?

    i had to ask, since i've never heard of this, though it is seen as offensive when right wing fanatics claim it never happened...
     
  5. erebh

    erebh Banned Contributor

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    EC Scrubb - not sure why youposted a list of derogatory Inidan names when the OP asked for a simple name the natives were happy to be called.

    Maybe you were just loading the tourist's gun...

    However I did chuckle at the Pretendian - The Native's own word for calling those not full blood but pretend to be... hehe!
     
  6. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @shadowwalker:
    I agree with you, and of course that is one way of doing it. However, I think there's a scope for a different approach, mainly because of great gaps in our knowledge of history. One dominant version always exists about any period and any place. But then, so many times we discovered that the previously accepted view was not only wrong, but a deliberate propaganda by a power-hungry "superpower" designed to demonise their victims.

    However, kindness and the concept of freedom and human rights is much older than our current civilisation, and it is more than perfectly possible to find fighters for human rights make arguments and offer opinions which would be considered advanced even today. Look at Hypatia for example.
     
  7. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    Maia, there is an European nation, Croatians, who were nazis and murdered upwards of 1 million people in WWII concentration camps mainly Serbs, Jews and Gypsies, but also the socialists, disabled, homosexuals and everyone who tried to help the endangered groups. My entire grandma's family was murdered in one of the biggest concentration camps in Croatia called Jasenovac. Entire Tesla line, all Krajina Serbs and the descendants of a famous scientist Nikola Tesla, were exterminated there. Not one person remans alive with that surname, all dead just because of their nationality.

    In the 1990s over half a million Serbs were exiled, thousands liquidated, from Croatia again. And today, and for the past 20 years, Croatia is working tirelessly at re-writing history, reducing numbers of victims and every time anything is mentioned to them, they refuse to talk about it because it is "irrelevant" or "happened in the past why do we dwell on it" etc.

    This is what Serbian people have to live with every day. And the world is silent to their plight. And despite sustained propaganda about that war, this Holocaust denying was at the centre of it. Unfortunately, until it becomes illegal to be a nazi, or neo-nazi or a holocaust denier, there will not be a permanent peace anywhere.
     
  8. Pauly Pen Feathers

    Pauly Pen Feathers New Member

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    Right wing fanatics? I'm offended by that. You just used a derogatory term to describe an extremely small minority of people who choose to believe the Holocaust never happened and lumped them all into the same box as anyone who has a right-leaning political philosophy. Don't you think there are any 'left wingers'
    who may not believe the Holocaust ever happened, or that we never landed on the moon, or that Kennedy was assassinated by our own government? Or is it just republicans who tickle the pages of a good conspiracy theory book?
     
  9. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    I've never heard any but neo-nazis or people of that mindset deny the Holocaust - if those aren't right-wing fanatics, I don't know who is. I've heard any number of people discussing the other conspiracy theories but they weren't politically based.
     
  10. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    Maia is right -- there *are* right wing fanatics who claim the holocaust never happened. I've never heard a left wing fanatic claim that the holocaust never happened, but I suppose one could. However, I've heard some far-right fanatics claim this on multiple occasions. I see no reason, Pauly, to be offended because in no way did Maia imply that anyone with a right leaning philosophy is a holocaust denier.

    You don't hear from too many left wing fanatics, because they aren't as numerous or as vocal as those on the far right. But, they do have their own nutty conspiracy theories, most prominently the anti-vaccine camp, which tends to draw from the far left (although some on the right espouse this idea, as well.)
     
  11. The Crazy Kakoos

    The Crazy Kakoos New Member

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    There's nothing correct about politics. All you need in real life is just manners.

    That being said,

    Historical non-fiction: Native Americans
    Historical fiction: whatever was most common to your character.
    Other fiction: whatever your character thinks.
     
  12. Pauly Pen Feathers

    Pauly Pen Feathers New Member

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    It doesn’t matter, ChicagoLiz. People are going to believe what they want to believe. If I say the Holocaust deniers are all right-wing nut jobs, I’m correct. If I say they exist on the left, too, then I’m a hater; a right-wing nut job, myself. That’s the ‘shut my mouth’ aspect of Political Correctness when used as a tool to stop conversation. That, too, exists.

    You’re right about one thing; Maia did not imply that anyone with a right leaning philosophy is a holocaust denier. What was said was “it is seen as offensive when right wing fanatics claim it never happened...”

    Does that mean it’s not offensive when left wing fanatics claim it never happened? Of course not, but why point fingers at any one segment of the political spectrum. And if you don’t believe there are any just google left wing holocaust deniers. I can’t guarantee any percentage of the information you’ll find is one hundred percent correct, or that it wasn’t put there by right-wing nut jobs, themselves. That would just be more fodder for even more conspiracy theory.

    I think it’s just as dangerous to say there are no left-wing Holocaust deniers as it is to deny the Holocaust.

    I grew up in a place not far from where you get your name, and I was there when Neo-Nazis tried to march on our quiet little town. We all turned out that day to stand with our neighbors, and I witnessed a little old man in a gray trench coat holding onto an empty bottle by its neck, not saying a word but just watching as the mayor of our town addressed the crowd telling us to ‘just let them march peacefully’ and every single one of us knew that wasn’t going to happen.

    Any given day you could walk into a delicatessen, or a dry cleaner, restaurant, whatever, and the little old men running their shops would roll up their sleeves as they worked, and there on the underside of their forearms were the little tattooed numbers they got while in the death camps. These were Holocaust Survivors. I think if we could asked them, they would tell us they didn’t give a rats tail whether a hater limped to the right or to the left. After all, a hater is a hater.
     
  13. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    I guess you skipped over the part where I wrote:
    Especially as a writer, you should notice words and phrases The phrase I used is not the same as a declaration that "there are no left-wing Holocaust deniers." But the fact remains that the more numerous and the most vocal, and most well-known holocaust deniers are on the far-right.

    I don't see the relevance at all of the Nazi march through Skokie. My grandmother lived in Skokie for fifty years, and she was pissed about that march. She never gave money to the ACLU again. There are differences of opinion as to the ACLU's position that however horrific the message, any person has the right to express his or her opinion. I understand that this particular expression would be highly emotional for this particular group of people. But that's not the issue we're discussing here.

    The fact is that you see much more hate coming from the far right than you do from the far left. Sure, there are folks on the left who can be snide and condescending. But I'd rather deal with that than some of the vitriol you see spouted from the right. The GOP would do themselves a favor by excising those folks and chastising them more for the more hateful and outrageous claims. The rational right needs to drown out the crazies for their own good. But again, that's a whole other issue.
     
  14. Monger

    Monger New Member

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    In the states, my understanding is that Native American is the commonly accepted PC term. Here in Canada, the word Aboriginal is finding increasing usage in the media. First Nations is another one. For a long time, people have been using the word 'Natives.' For whatever reason, it's increasingly being seen as a perjorative. I've found this to be true more on the west coast.

    During my few years writing for a small town newspaper in Ontario, the editor was quick to correct me when I referred to an adjacent reservation as a 'native community.' I was told to always use the term First Nations. In the years since, I've seen Aboriginal get a lot of usage.

    The term Indian is generally perceived is very pejorative.
     
  15. E. C. Scrubb

    E. C. Scrubb Active Member

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    Sigh...

    Context of my post please. Depending on her main character and who is doing the talking, any one of those derogatory names just may be the primary way in which the MC refers to modern "Native Americans," because a 19th century American wouldn't say, "Stand up, Native American!" Moreover, if the MC is in conflict even in today's world, there's probably a 50/50 chance that he or she wouldn't say, "You're just a Native American, what do you know."

    _____________

    And actually, mama, outside of the American New NAtional SOcialist (or Neo Nazi) movement (which obviously, has a socialist leaning, not a "right wing" leaning), most of the American deniers are found in academia, according to the paper referenced below.

    According to The Nizkor Project: Holocaust Denial Today, by Manuel Prutschi, Canadian Jewish congress, "A number of radical leftists, because of their antagonism towards Israel and their anti-Zionism, have become Holocaust deniers or, at the very least, are not loath to associate with deniers. In the same way that the neo-Nazis have to deny the Holocaust to whitewash Nazism, radical leftists have to deny the Holocaust to undermine the strongest justification for the creation and the existence of the State of Israel. And the radical leftists also resort to the Orwellian inversion of images. Israel is described as a Nazi state and accused of perpetrating genocide on the Palestinians."

    I think it's very unfair and degrading to label deniers as "right wing," extreme or not. They are extremists, period. (Well, that and screwed in the head, but that's a different topic;)).
     
  16. JennyM

    JennyM New Member

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    Two words sparked such emotional responses 'political correctness'! On hindsight, perhaps my question could have been worded better, though would we have received such great replies? Thank you all very much for your caring.

    It all boils down to labels. How I hate labels. It´s always been an annoyance, often I've yelled "Don't put that label on me!" This thread has gathered some great labels, Indian; Obama supporters; nazis; racists; soldiers; Japanese citizens; aboriginal; and a whole lot more..., and if anyone wants proof that labels are used to put people in nice little 'boxes', then just scroll back.

    There is a rather obnoxious politician in the UK (a label I gladly put on him), who is married to a Palestinian (*label), he was invited to judge presentations delivered by students at a university in England. A young, fresh faced (*label) student from Israel (*label) stepped up to the lectern, the politician stopped the young man before he barely spoke the title of the presentation. The politician wanted to know where the young man came from. When the lad said he was from Israel; the politician stood up, gathered his papers, and walked out of the room saying he would hear nothing from an Israeli. This hasn't done anything for the Palestinian cause the politician was trying to champion, and this fresh faced youngster will probably take a more jaundiced view of the Palestinian cause. Such is the result of labelling.

    Of course we wouldn't be able to write about anything if we didn't have labels, there would be no 'tribes' or 'nations' - but we are much more than a label.

    Amusing story about labelling, a friend upset a Spanish waitress in a restaurant, the reason doesn't matter, but she p***ed the witress off big time. The waitress being a youngster, blurted out that she hates all English (*label) because they stole all the gold that belonged to Spain (400 years ago!), she used a label as a weapon! My friend was no more instrumental to steeling the gold than the Spanish waitress was responsible for her ancestors steeling the gold in the first place from the Incas.

    Getting back to my book, it spans from 1820 to just after the American Revolution. The narrator to speak in today's language, though dialogues are written in the language of the time. The book follows factual history as a guideline, though written as a fictional novel, I hope the book will leave the judging to the reader.

    Thank you once again for such great interaction.
     
  17. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    This is still an issue? Hitler made a few speeches in which he claimed to fight for Socialism, just not Socialism in a Marxist sense. Fascism was seen at the time as the movement of the middle classes, not the workers. Hitler's style of fascism, while having some capitalist elements, was still mostly collectivized. The U.S., before his election, saw Hitler as a moderate between the Communists and the German far right, he was seen as someone you could do business with. It's also not a secret that Time magazine once named him man of the year. How times change! But Hitler was pretty big on Socialism. In fact, before joining the Nationalsocialistiska Arbetarpartiet Hitler was a member of a Marxist Soviet. I think some, especally when thinking about America, think of 'far right wing' as being a short hand for 'crackpots' and that kind of labeling is never right. It's lazy.

    I hear there is a good book on this subject, Thank God They're On Our Side it's called.
     
  18. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

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    I think that whole part of the discussion could have been very short if people had read "right wing fanatics" instead of just "right wing". But that's why labeling is so worthless, at least in serious conversations. People interpret depending on what they want to hear, whether actual insults or not.
     
  19. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    sw...
    of course you're right and i was not accusing all right-wingers with holocaust-denying, which is why i used the specific noun 'fanatics' after utilizing 'right wing' as an adjective, to distinguish them from the left-wing variety... but some simply seem to want to argue... i'm hors de combat, so am grateful for your clear-headed and unjaundiced-eyed comments...

    jen...
    did you mean american 'civil war' or was '1820' supposed to be '1720'?

    hugs to you both, m
     
  20. JennyM

    JennyM New Member

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    Yes, It's the Civil War. Thanks for correcting me. X
     
  21. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    Well, I'm not too nuts about them, myself. However, liking, not liking, socializing, not socializing, all of those things fall under the heading of "personal freedom."

    Look, you're not obligated to read my posts. Two things, that's your personal choice, and frankly I don't care if you're bigoted or not. We make way too much out of this stuff.

    (Edit: I use the editorial 'you' in this example.)

    Even at our age my wife is still the kind of woman who ruminates too much if she finds out that someone doesn't like her.
     
  22. Bimber

    Bimber New Member

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    Got to ask this and dont get me wrong, but do Americans like anyone? Dont think i ever saw anyone say that.

    Maybe its the same like with every country dunno thats why i ask, but with us we tend to not like many, hate some, tolerate others... but we love Russia no matter how many times they sold us out but we still love them for it.
     
  23. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    No, we don't.

    Maybe the Aussies. More than likely some Sicilians. On a good day, the Canadians. But given a choice, we'll socialize with other Americans, even liberals if that's the only choice.

    Did you ever see Americans run into other Americans on a vacation? They'll overhear that a couple is from Detroit, and even if they think all folks from Michigan are inbred hucksters, they'd rather eat, socialize, play cards and dance with them than the Chilean evangelist and his wife at the next table.

    I think it's a siege mentality. Every day we are assaulted with news stories that foreigners hate us, but take all of the foreign aid they can cart off. After a few decades of that we think it might be a better idea to give them back to the Communists.

    My choice? First bring our soldiers home, let people fight their own wars. Once safe, get the US out of the UN, and accomplishing that, then get the UN out of the US...
     
  24. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

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    Speak for yourself.

    I don't like or dislike anyone based on what someone else calls them, or even based on what they call themselves. I like or dislike people based on what they do and how they act toward me. Why would any intelligent person ever do otherwise?
     
  25. Bimber

    Bimber New Member

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    Thanks always wondered about it, so guess people are not much different at all in any place and seems we all have those tribal instincts

    We were also under communism 10 years ago and you know...we lived much better back then than we do now under democracy
    As for soldiers going home, i dont see it happening, war industry brings money, who needs to buy weapons if no wars around, but when you look at it its kinda funny how the policy changed in less than 80 years US went from no interfering to poking their nose in everything.
     

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