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  1. jannert
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    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    Canada's new Prime Minister

    Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by jannert, Oct 21, 2015.

    Hey. Canada's new prime minister. Seems like a breath of fresh air. We do live in interesting times. Nicola Sturgeon, Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders ...are voters finally waking up to what conservative governments actually do to people? Here's hoping, anyway.
     
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  2. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I don't know very much about Justin Trudeau, but I'm damn glad to see Harper and his gang go. Now Canada has a chance to undo ten years of Conservative damage.
     
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  3. ADreamer
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    ADreamer Banned Sock-Puppet

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    This might be better in to debate room actually.


    Unlikely.

    Trudeau is going to attempt to apply the same ideas that finance minister aka clown with Obama has done in the US and which has been copied in Ontario ... and which has accounted for absolutely nothing but higher taxes, loss of jobs, and ultimately a rather stagnant economy. Just 14 days ago a steel company closed up in the local city, left 22,000+ people without their benefits and soon there will be no jobs and no pension... you want to know what the Ontario government said [not our to do, couldn't careless].


    The only reason why he won if you read the comments is because he's going to turn Canada into "Potanda" ... as most commenters are pro-weed. That and riding on daddy's coattails of course cause he is rather meek / even dopey - can't hold a debate to save his life the one session I watched.

    But then I look at it this way. My father worked federal government for 32 years, he was with Pierre in Alberta when the oh so "lovely" man [my grandmother, who was of better social class (never had a mortgage and lived in one of the higher class suburbs of Montreal) knew him, seeing as at one point they were more or less neighbors when he retired] gave the middle finger to the working class people that were protesting as he was doing nothing to help the western provinces when they were loosing jobs left, right and center. If you google it, there are some sites saying he did so in response to the Albertians making anti-Quebec statements but that is nothing but absolute claptrap [a truck load of BS]. Pierre and his two sons did the exact thing - gave the middle finger because what does he care, or why should he care cause he was already elected and making good money.

    To Pierre the little guy meant nothing because he's never been the little guy (you can't understand what you've never worn the shoes of) - and in all truth he was a rather unforgiving SOB in many things [the White Paper put through by Pierre & Chrétien was meant to finish off and utterly destroy the aboriginal culture so don't see how his boy is pro-investigation of missing aboriginals as his platform claims] - and I doubt his son is any better. Ironically despite knowing Pierre or maybe because of knowing him my grandmother said, and she is 99, if his son got into power she'd be leaving Canada.



    Not saying Harper didn't have to go, but Thomas Mulcair and the NDP would have been a far better choice.
     
  4. Genghis McCann
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    Genghis McCann Member

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    So do we put you down as "undecided", Dreamer? :)
     
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  5. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    Mulcair is a snake. He pandered way too much to Quebec, had weak foreign policy, pretended he didn't know what "splitting the vote" meant, supported Thatcher economics, and once tried to get in with the Conservative party. Whenever he speaks you can see the lies - he's formerly a lawyer, after all. Still though, a much better choice than Harper.

    Let's be real though. Millions of votes were wasted in this election. Why? Because people weren't voting new politicians in, they were voting old politicians out. My family voted liberal, despite not agreeing with many liberal policies - strategic voting is a blight on democracy. People often forget that MPs are in some ways more important than the Prime Minister. Eh, what are you gonna do, right?
     
  6. Lewdog
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    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

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    Trudeau, isn't he the guy that got indicted for selling all those books that were a farce?
     
  7. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Are you thinking of Gary Trudeau?
     
  8. minstrel
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    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

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    @ADreamer:

    Looks like you're blaming Justin for a bunch of things his father did or failed to do. Looks like you're also blaming him for the closure of a steel company (which one?) that occurred before he was even elected. Why not let him establish his own record before you judge his performance?

    I grew up in Canada. I lived there for the first 35 years of my life. I've been in the USA for nineteen years now - I guess I left when you were ten or so. I was living there throughout the Pierre Trudeau years, and, while I realize he was a very polarizing political figure, those years weren't bad.

    I, too, would have much preferred an NDP government to Justin's Liberals, but we have to live with what we got.

    And before things get too heated in here, I'll put this thread in the Debate Room.
     
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  9. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Mulcair was slipping leading to the election -- to say Trudeau won on weed is nonsense. Why would he risk the deficit if that's all it takes? He outflanked the NDP, who were too concerned with bleeding to the middle. Many unemployed tradespeople will have hope now as our infrastructure is renewed. Which leads me to the next point, I'm assuming you mean when oil crashed in '86? That wasn't the NEP's fault https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program I was born in Ft. Mac and left in '86, becoming an Ontarian before the age of two. Yet Trudeau is blamed for the crash even though the Saudis flooded the market. Another small problem, Mulroney was prime minister during these times, not Trudeau. Do you have any sources about this cultural genocide stuff? A white paper is a proposal not an Act.
     
  10. jannert
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    jannert Contributing Member Supporter Contributor

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    Well, if it's any comfort, our steel industry here in Scotland was just mothballed this week as well. (Owned by Tata, an India-based company for the past few years.)

    Nothing to do with the Scottish government, who are trying their damndest to mitigate the effects of the closure on the devastated Scottish workforce. It's the influx of cheap Chinese steel, manufactured by Chinese workers who are very poorly paid, that has done for the steel industry in countries that formerly led the pack, like Scotland, Canada, etc. In the recent bidding for the steel for the new Forth Road Bridge, not a single UK steel manufacturer even put in a bid, because none of them are any longer capable of handling such a large project. So who got the bid? The Chinese.

    Cheapness always wins over quality. I remember when we laughed at McDonald's, saying their burger dream wouldn't last because their burgers were crap, compared to the ones produced in independent burger outlets. How wrong were we? About the lasting, not the quality, I mean. This kind of takeover will continue to happen across many industries, until we in the developed world insist on highest quality products and fair pay for fair work, rather than the cheapest common denominator.

    I'd say give your new Canadian PM a chance. There are a lot of people who switched their votes to get him where he is just now. If he makes good on his promises ...and he's starting off well ...he will have fulfilled their hopes in voting for him. The pendulum swings both ways, doesn't it?

    As far as his stance on 'weed' goes, I'm in favour of it. Not the weed itself, which I only tried a few times as a young person and didn't enjoy, but decriminalising it. I've always said that's the one thing that hasn't been tried in the 'war on drugs.' Make them legal. I'd go farther and make them all legal. This will start getting them out of the hands of mafia-type gangs, who make their money off supplying people with illegal stuff. Mind you, it might be a case of too little, too late, but it's worth a go. If people didn't have to get their pot from the same people who peddle heroin, the link might be partially broken. Worth a try.
     
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  11. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    Then what did Trudeau win on? Bringing in 25,000+ refugees [the sort of people who never get background checks and who can be mass murderers in their home country - there was a ditty on a 20ish year old from Africa last year claiming refugee status, border didn't even think twice of letting him in seemingly ignorant of the fact that the country he came from child soldiers weren't uncommon and he could have easily had a record ten miles long back in Africa]? Scrapping military spending? Removing Canada from bombing ISIS [which is a threat]? Adding $2,500 per year in tax cuts to a family of four's budget [in this day and age & this economy $2,500 a year is nothing but useless peanuts]?

    I lived in Ontario seeing as Justin is adopting a lot of the Ontario mentality. I've seen the infrastructure ideas - since that is one of his major things - and they're a joke... in the city I stayed at for college they've torn up this same strip of road five times in the last 14 months - stripped it, paved it, stripped it, paved it and now they've taken to cutting pieces out and raising the manholes well above surface level meaning in the middle of the night someone can easily blow out their tires. And the irony is that this piece of road was pretty reasonable compared to some of the roads - there's one road they haven't even touched which feels like your driving on the surface of a storm-whipped lake than on a roadway it's so pot-marked. In this same city they didn't even pave the main roads during or after a storm - rather wasting the budget on clear days. This year the roads - including main roads - got so bad that I basically forced them to do their job by saying if I tore out the bottom of my 4 door sedan driving in the huge ruts that I'd be sending city hall the bill. That's the sort of infrastructure mentality Trudeau is going to apply to the whole of Canada.

    Last time I checked - roads don't pay for themselves. So who is paying for the infrastructure - the "big" guy [people with money]? Be realistic; Trudeau wouldn't tax his golf buddies if they were the only people living in Canada.

    Are you going to tell me it was his claim to investigate aboriginals' deaths that won the election? Adding to what was said about the White Paper - it was meant to pretty much eradicate the entire culture. A green go ahead to destroy anything aboriginal. As my father said - Pierre Trudeau just didn't want to destroy the aboriginals, he wanted to kill them. There's also the fact that a large group in Canada absolutely despise aboriginals [they're drunks, useless, slobs, given hand outs and what do they do... get drunk... wastes of space]. I had the "fortune" of you would of living in Winnipeg - which for having that hyped up Human Rights building most of the people in that city think aboriginals are worst than stray dogs. I mean one of their police chiefs was fired - but never charged - for doing as many police officers in that region of Canada have done over the years; dragged a drunk aboriginal out to the sticks in the middle of winter and left them to freeze to death.


    As for the concept of Canadian middle class - it was Trudeau who was courting the middle class unless you missed his 3 billion dollar tax cut to the middle class. A middle class that in most other similarly status countries as Canada would count more for low upper class by the way. True middle class in Canada is pretty much non-existent nowadays. Just because one self-identifies as middle class doesn't mean you are middle class.


    But please, enlighten me. I didn't vote because I think 90% of politicians are just blowhard liars. But what would you say to persuade me or anyone else to vote for Trudeau.
     
  12. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    Where are you getting your information? A longitudinal study concluded in 2014 that Canada has the strongest middle class in the world, although the numbers have probably changed a bit by now, but not as much to claim that our middle class is non-existant. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html?hp&_r=1

    You only need one reason to vote for Trudeau, and that reason's name is: Stephen Harper. You may have heard of him, seeing as his party has been under criminal investigation for election fraud FOUR elections in a row. He also turned our surplus into debt, planned to cut $36 billion from our health care system, would prefer our banks are regulated like those in America (in other words, not regulated at all), told government scientists to keep quiet, actively prevented efforts to deal with climate change, and many others.

    Justin Trudeau is essentially the opposite of everything I just listed. Oh and by the way, you did vote - not voting is just giving somebody else a double vote.
     
  13. GingerCoffee
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    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    That was Kevin, not Justin or Pierre.

    Cures they don't want you to know about.
     
  14. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    Harper got in four times, so to say he's the reason Trudeau won is as silly as saying it wasn't weed. Or were the prior potentials imaginary Martian men? Layton ran and he was NPD [Tommy Douglas whom you can thank for that health care Harper cut was likewise NPD so you think that party would have a little more credit than it gets] and yet god awful "devil worshipping" Harper somehow got in. It's like that nitwit [Campbell] in BC who fked the province over from mountain to coast and from frozen tundra to nice warm interior / fruit-belt and who was still voted in three times.

    Give me a real reason and not "bandwagon" swill.


    As for the comment about Canada's middle class, this comes from that link.
    In Canada, people complain about the costs of modern life, from college to monthly phone and Internet bills. Unemployment is a concern almost everywhere.

    If you're complaining about such things, you're not middle class - self identification as middle class means nothing if you actually don't qualify; it's just a way of feeling "superior". People such as this maybe low middle class, they're typically upper low class. Seeing as Canada's own finance minister just this January happened to put middle class as people with a net [so that means after taxes, etc.] yearly income of $120,000 and above. I don't think they're complaining of unpaid internet bills.
     
  15. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    The only way to enlighten you, as requested, is to ask that you read your post and wonder what exactly I'm supposed to respond to. I see now that the "white paper" is a real thing, but I'm not sure that the conclusions you and ADreamer have set forth follow from it, seeing as I've only been introduced to it through Wikipedia. ISIS declared war on Canada and the two CF members who died last year were killed on behalf of ISIS. You have to make the case why we should continue being belligerents. All the parties went for the middle class. I'm not going to list my time outside Toronto and the GTA either, and my interaction with Aboriginals or how I view them, lest I be seen as mustering street cred or something, but you're off the mark there too. Have a deep breath if you want to reply.
     
  16. Acanthophis
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    Acanthophis ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Contributor

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    @Aire You missed the entire point of my post. Trudeau won because people were sick of the Harper regime. A decade of lies, broken promises and corruption as far as the eye can see - it's a wonder he's not behind bars. Hell, people didn't even vote Trudeau in, they voted Harper out. My parents would have voted NDP but they voted liberal because Harper needed to go. I think Trudeau is a much better candidate than Mulcair, despite being NDP myself.

    I don't honestly believe you know how socio-economic classes work, and that's not something I care to explain. I'll leave that to somebody else or to you alone.
     
  17. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    Challenge accepted.
    Aside from using an anecdote from the article, which sites no one in particular and is only there to introduce the topic. Aside from a giant misunderstanding of how tax brackets work, and why they exist. Aside from that: I am middle class and I complain about those things all the time. There is no guarantee of financial security at any income bracket. Here's a thread of literal millionaires complaining that they can barely afford the property taxes on their second homes. I guess the fact that they're complaining means an income of $350,000 is "maybe low middle class."
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
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  18. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    It's crazy. If you know I'm a Liberal, give me something concrete to work with. Some people have a very complex reasoning for seeing things as they do. I'm not going to write a treatise on why I support Justin Trudeau. To give fair warning, I was an NDP in '05, but the changes Harper brought led me to reevaluate my idealism. I remained Liberal through the trials of Ignatieff and Dion straight on through since I have a certain understanding of the NDP, but I won't beat a dead horse unless I have to.
     
  19. Aire
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    Aire Banned Sock-Puppet

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    Do you have a mortgage? If you do, you'll be lucky to be considered low middle class. I don't have a mortgage [I own my house outright - paid cash for it, and at more than $210,000 it is no shack], following my brother's career choice I will be making by myself more than $90,000 yearly as a junior staff member, and right now I own my 2016 vehicle outright [no lease, no loan]. I am what qualifies as proper middle class. I've said this multiple times - self identifying as middle class means absolutely nothing because you really don't qualify.

    As for the millionaires complaining of taxes - I suppose you think they pay the same amount of taxes as a shack on the side of the road [a few thousand dollars]. Most of those 2nd and 3rd and 4th properties will have taxes that will range into the tens of thousands of dollars each. There is also a sense of entitlement that comes with being richer than most so of course you're going to end up complaining - goes without say.


    :supergrin:So in short you can't give me a legit reason to vote for Trudeau but bandwagon swill. I refer to it as bandwagon swill because you're just repeating what every other people has said without understanding it and as such you can't defend your reason. Your mentality is the same as someone who'll buy a piece of junk off the side of the road [such as the iPhone 6] because everyone and their mother is buying that same piece of junk off the side of the road.

    And actually I understand socio-economics a lot better than you, it is my course of study. You're just reciting information as if it's actually golden and are unable to "read between the lines". You're the sort of person politicians love because they can promise you the moon and you'd believe they'd deliver it gift wrapped & with a little pink bow.




    Canada is being belligerent to ISIS; I suggest looking up the meaning of the word. Next you'll tell me that ISIS is but a figment of our imagination. But let me tell you, there was a genius professor in the University of Tokyo a few years ago [Muslim I believe] and he said that Muslims don't want a piece of the pie [world], they want the entire thing.

    As for ISIS I really won't bother elaborating on that because the average person really knows absolutely squat about the middle east and believe what our politicians say as if man is in... actually fk it. ISIS was created by the west because the stupid ignorant west stuck it's nose where it doesn't belong - the "war on terrorism" was a crock of BS to anyone that has more than a passing knowledge of the mid-east seeing as the al Qaeda have been around for centuries [the first recorded encounter with them was by the British in the early 1800s and such tribal warfare or so called "terrorist" groups have existed long before that - they just didn't pop out of the sands like the average goofy person believes following their "leaders"]. Because of sticking that big ugly nose out the west removed so called "tyrants" that were keeping the rabble [ISIS] at bay because all of the energy and hatred was focused on those "tyrants" - now big nosed west has stepped in and filled the hole.

    But as I said, little point. Most westerners don't have a rat's ass clue about how the culture in the mid-east works. To them it's just one big religion (or religions) when in all reality there's enough cultural and tribal sects in the mid-east that you could spend your life studying them and you'd just scratch the surface of understanding.


    To the living outside of the GTA as my younger sister says when she's being obnoxious, would you like an award? I've lived in seven provinces from coast to coast. And as for you with respect to aboriginals if you think you speak for the entirety of Canada in that regard, may I suggest taking something sharp and pointy to that ego of yours? I have studied with aboriginals - I can tell you some very interesting stories about how Canadians really view aboriginals.
     
  20. BayView
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    BayView Contributing Member Contributor

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    Wait - I thought you were saying you have to net $120K in order to be middle class? So if you're grossing $90K, you're not middle class, you're working class, by your own definition. (I know, you were quoting someone else in that definition, but I assume you were quoting with approval, otherwise - why quote?)

    I, on the other hand, fit that definition of middle class, and I worry about how much I spend on internet and tuition. The more money you make, the more money you spend, as a rule, so it takes a hell of a lot more than $120K net to start thinking expenses don't matter. And unless I'm wrong, I suspect you aren't worrying about tuition because you don't have kids? You seem pretty young, so if you DO have kids, maybe they're not at university age yet?

    In terms of voting? I voted Liberal this time for exactly the reason others are mentioning - I wanted to get rid of Harper. The Conservatives never got more than 40% of the popular vote under Harper, but they won elections because the other parties split the vote. This election, I wanted to be sure that didn't happen, so I voted for the Anyone But Harper party that had the best chance in my riding. Strategic voting? Hell, yeah. And it worked.


    ETA: And as is always the best policy with some, I looked up the $120K a year thing - the source I found said that was the TOP limit of middle class, and it applies to an entire family, not a single person. And it seems to be gross, not net. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/middle-class-families-earn-up-to-120k-a-year-feds-say-1.2932996

    Do you have a citation for your idea that $120K net is the BOTTOM limit of the middle class, according to anyone but you?

    ETA2: And I still firmly identify as middle class, even though I make more than that, so while you're right that self-identification probably isn't the best way to establish economic classes, I think you're wrong to assume that people will always put themselves in a higher class rather than a lower one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  21. Chinspinner
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    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

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    he killed my sheep.
     
  22. Acanthophis
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    Why do you presume to know how every person behaves? The reasons I gave you were legitimate; people wanted Harper gone, and felt the liberals were the best bet. And for the record, I went from Samsung Galaxy Ace 2 to iPhone 6 because it was a free upgrade for my cellular plan. Considering how little I care about material possession, I'd say your profiling abilities need to be re-evaluated.

    Economics isn't hard to grasp, there's a reason why they start teaching us how the economy works, how to do taxes, and dealing with bank loans at grade seven. If it's your field of study and you've got such a juvenile understanding, I'd suggest a different field, or study harder.

    As for how I vote, you presume far too much. I've only been able to vote in two federal elections, and both times I voted for the who I best believed could eliminate the conservative MP in my riding. I don't rally care what a politician says, because they just pander to popular ideas. Actions speak louder than words.

    You'll be able to carry yourself far easier in discussions if you stop pretending you've pegged down the mentality of others; it makes you less arrogant.
     
  23. Chinspinner
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    Chinspinner Contributing Member Contributor

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    He is like the Cookie Monster, ooh cookies
     
  24. Jack Asher
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    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

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    That's very nice and I'm happy for your success. But you must have been too busy writing it to notice it has nothing to do with your earlier point, that the middle class was worse off. And it has especially nothing to do with my point that you clearly don't understand tax brackets. You're also refuting your earlier point that just complaining about your bills means you're lower class, which means I don't have to. Thanks for that.
    Lets look at what someone else has to say:
    That 90k puts you into the second highest tax bracket for an individual. You're absolutely not middle class, not even "proper middle class". But you are right, self identifying as middle class counts for nothing.

    Of course you were the only one making that point, and you just proved yourself wrong.
     
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  25. BrianIff
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    BrianIff I'm so piano, a bad punctuator. Contributor

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    Yeah, whatever would we do without people like you...Like I said, bring some facts to the table. We all got stories, especially online. Play by something objective -- I'm not into pissing contests.
     
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