I love plot! But it hates me. I tend to start with a premis, and then the theme, to design the characters that orbit that heme. Then comes plot. But sometimes I get carried away...I hate being locked into a place where I'm making characters fit my plot. They can often betray their natural behaviour to make events happen. But I'm writing for film - and so it's all about the action.
I am good at both because plot and characters always go hand-in-hand for me. They move the story together and develop each other.
Without a third party to correct me here, I'd have to say characters. I discovery write rather than doing outlines (I've tried to outline and trust me, it all goes horribly wrong.) so I start with a scene and one or more characters and the story writes itself. Sometimes I have to backtrack and go again from an earlier point if the story just goes in a direction I don't like, but I don't really have a goal in site till at least halfway through the story, and it's the characters and how they've interacted that suggest the ending to me.
Yeah - I know exactly what you're talking about, Show. I recently did a rehaul on my Nano characters and found I needed to reintegrate them into my plot since they were much different than my two previous characters. Heh, I gotta make everything fit too
Characters, personally, are the easiest. For this reason, I have a full list of characters that steadily gets longer by the year. I get a sudden brain-fart and produce a plot of some merit, but then it all goes to hell. There were a couple of stories that I actually ended up finishing but, upon reading it over, I saw that it was littered with plot twists and plot holes. At least when you have a plot, you can make characters that can fit such a plot. For me, characters don't make plot.
I'm much better at plot. My characters evolve out of necessity when the plot demands them to react, but I can never get the hang of developing them beyond that. I struggle with describing changing relationships between my characters. Now I come to think of it, basically every story I've ever written has been plot-driven. Maybe that's something I should look into.
My characters are my plot - if the plot elements do not go into developing my character or taking him in the direction I want to go they do not go into the story.
It's definitely frustrating sometimes. You like your people; you like the story, but sometimes getting these people into the story is a bigger challenge than creating either.
Exactimo I agree 100% with you, Show. I'm finding out with my Nano story that my plot isn't necessarily as important in relation to my characters as I first wanted them to be. Now it seems like my characters are taking their own paths and aren't conforming to my planned plot at all though I've tried as hard as I could to make them stick. Is this a good thing? Maybe so. I'll have to save this plot of mine and let my characters run free. On the other hand: I've found myself in your same predicament, TJ. I formulate all the external, internal obstacles for my yet-formed characters to go through and evolve them around those roadblocks. But that's as much as I touch my characters at times. I end up not going into great depth when creating them. Thus they're still like one-dimensional vegetables by the time I've thought my whole plot through from start to finish. ...Being a writer involves so much more than I first thought...
I'm currently sort of working on a novel (sort of because I'm not sure whether the plot idea needs massive revising or not), and, being one of the "plan everything through as detailed as possible"-types (like say James Ellroy, although my writing style is completely different), I have a pretty precise idea of my plot. However, the protagonist is somewhat shallow. On one hand, he is allegorically supposed to represent every person who suffered injustice based on discrimination, which is also why I am letting him remain nameless. But somehow, he is still too shallow for my tastes. That's why I'm thinking about revising all of it. Making the character more personable, and adding a few subplots (the plot I outlined, being a very political metaphor, doesn't seem to agree with the idea of subplots) because I would struggly *very* hard if I had to write a novel without significant plot twists and subplots. Also, the variety of themes is very shallow. Yep. Writing this made me realise I *definitely* have to revise it. "Creative Writing Forums - The Self-Help Clinic for unsure authors."
^Ditto. Writing Forums has helped me realize a lot of things... I wish you much luck, Thetalpha. I recently switched around some characters for this story of mine because I felt my MC was shallow as well. She wasn't fitting, nor was she as real as I would have wanted her to be. This is probably because my story was more plot-defined than character defining.
No don't think it is that at all sometimes some characters tell a story better than others. Learning to experiement with my stories and not being so attached to my work was a great step forward for me. If it isn't working I delete it and start again. I started telling my first from the point of view of a dead king - the story only began to work when I changed it to his seventeen year old son. A very different but great story was told from the POV of his twenty eight year old son (I am in process of writing that book). My second I intially told from the POV of just one character. When i changed it and told half the book with him as the MC narrator and the other half with his partner it became a better story. The final chapter I am trying to make entirely dialogue so it isn't either POV. My NaNo I am contemplating change POV to third person the scene I am currently telling from first person is harrowing to write. My stories are character rather than plot driven - but it still takes time and practice to work out how to tell it. Except for my NaNo it has flowed really well.
Plot VS Character - 3 Round fight Just look at this way: Plot without character = History lesson (you care, reader doesn't) Character without Plot = An impossibility Character without forced plot, setting (e.g., just dialogue) = Still great If you don't believe that Character is more important, read "Hills like White Elephants." Hemingway creates a setting and story using negative space, through dialogue. People have tried the other way around. Its the lowest selling format. Very few readers enjoy it. Take Tolkien for instance. He wanted to write history, languages, and time-lines, but he used character to do it.
Character without Plot = (Auto-)Biography[1] [1] Just as boring as history[2] [2] Oh wait, it is history
I am better with characters. My plot is dependent on my characters. I form a rough plot then make characters to fill the plot. They create the plot so my first priority is to make good strong characters, then refine plot.
I realize both are equally important in a well written story. Just combing the two at times can be a bit tricky. Especially when either your plot or characters change and evolve over time. This is the problem I'm having...in a way. True, true.
My advice is let them evolve - let the characters tell the story - let the story tell the characters. One character of mine comes to mind - dull as ditchwater, flat. Facilities manager of the palace Paul Jackson (yeah he was as good as he sounds). He then announced he had been having an affair with the Crown Prince who had died in a yacht incident. I went back and resurrected the Crown Prince. Paul Jackson became Nathaniel Smith head of the secret service and part sparrow etc Thanks to that one incident Socrates and Nate were born as the most amazing Main Characters. I recently set out to tell a funny, funky, fuzzy NaNo story. My characters changed it drastically and it has dark elements had me crying my eyes out. It has now finished an incredibly powerful story. If you start with the plot let it create your characters. If you start with a character let them tell you your story.
Wow! This is exactly what I go through if I choose character over plot, or plot over character. Thank you for making me realize this
You should all read Brook's Reading for the Plot (1984) vs Forsters Aspects of the Novel (1927). They add a lot to narrative debates such as this. Besides, it's helpful for your writing, and they are interesting! We sure do like like to either to complicate or simply things, don't we? "I conclude this is simple!" "I conclude this is complex!" I must be on the latter side, perhaps. Yes, plot incorporates character, and character is explored through plot. There's no arguing that - and I agree with everyone there. But, plot is a noun, as well as a process. Brooks argues that plot is in fact a language through which we think...elaborating a lot about the way construct realities into something understandable. So we should distinguish it from a way of thinking, from a writing-process to a fully formed plot (as a noun). Forster argues that plot is hideous (he's a pretentious old bugger.) But he brings on a lot of interesting examples if you read the book, relating to what we would now call the classics. He argues that characters are increasingly 'betraying' their true selves in order to fulfill plot needs, and that stories are plot-driven. And such an approach is killing literature. (That was ages ago, mind you...) So while we like to simplify it, I do think there's a big difference in the outcome of the story. You can tell in some cases if the writer values plot over character, or visa versa. I find that fascinating, even if it is moronic when someone says: "Oh this is a character heavy story, or a plot heavy story."
Chicken or the Egg You have a point, but for some reason this popped into my head. What is superior, man or powerful weapons? Weapons are used by men and are useless alone. Men can accomplish many things without weapons. What is more important, words or concepts? Words relay concepts and keep them alive. Without words, concepts are changed and lost over time. What is more important, plot or characters? Characters live out, express and develop plots. You remember plots, because of characters, and how they relate to them. Without a character, plot ceases to exist, or have meaning. Plot can be told, only using dialogue and character interaction (e.g. Hills Like White Elephants by Hemingway) VS. Plots make characters develop. You love or emulate character's because of plot. Without plot, no one cares about the characters. Characters are not told by plot, only changes in them are expressed. TIE BREAKER: I have to say go to the tie breaker on this one: (real life) I can sit and enjoy observing people interact, without knowing the plot surrounding the interaction. But, when someone tells me a story about people I don't know. I become instantly disconnected. Ultimately, its a philosophical debate since greatness comes from the combination, not from one or the other.
I actually have written a short story without a single character in it - well the wind, sand and waves are the characters. It was about the loss of a villlage overnight by the sand covering it. Maybe I should find it and post it. Think it is on the defunct harddrive. Have seen similar work done taking nature as the character.
I'd argue that something like that would be merely a description making use of personification, rather than a story.
