Christian genre: why is it so bad and how to write it well?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by Mckk, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Granted both Crusoe and Les Mis were written at a time when Christianity was much more dominant than it is now, but Crusoe's trials with his faith is well developed - and ultimately it wins out. We cannot look back on them and claim anything about their religiosity, outside of interpretation. We don't really now how religious or not Defoe actually was, but it would be wrong to suggest the sorts of affirmations of faith in his novels are not in some ways genuine.

    If writers of the sort of dreck being talked about on this thread is compensating for their uncertainty with poorly thought out stories then this defence is paper thin. It leads to fiction with only one interpretation, and formed along very specifically 'decent' lines, and this kind of stringency almost never leads to good fiction.

    Many good writers have had an agenda, but it was an agenda they were safe and comfortable with. Comfortable enough to, like Orwell, entertain ideas of The Other and then deal with them - admit faults in their own agenda, and work through them. Flatly rejecting The Other is essentially rejecting the world, and that is not a good basis for fiction.

    I think you are right at the end of your post, conversation and interaction with the world does not seem to be the goal of such art (we can even count Christian Rock among that), and what is art of any worth if not another voice in the great conversation that has been going on since the first cave doodles?
     
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  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think that part of the problem with the play that you describe is that it's begging its question. The play is trying to persuade someone of an argument, but it's using the conclusion as the argument.

    Imagine a play about vegetarianism, written to convince people that eating animals is wrong, that tries to convince them by having some character look at a plate of steak, form a dismayed expression, and say, "I just realized--eating animals is wrong!" It sounds like this play similarly starts with the conclusion--and ends with the same conclusion.

    And it sounds like there's some confusion about who the audience is--the play doesn't seem to serve either the unconverted or the already-converted very well. It doesn't offer the already-converted anything new to think about, and it doesn't offer the unconverted anything that they are going to care about. The Nativity story may be a touchstone (do I mean touchstone?) for the faithful, but for everyone else it'd just a story. And "Jesus is Lord" has even less meaning for them.

    Your idea about the homeless Jesus--which is, absolutely, much much ever so much a whole lot enormously BETTER than the play that you describe--serves the already-converted audence well, if perhaps uncomfortably. It should, in theory, make them think about whether their religion is changing their lives and their actions as much as it should, whether they're really acting on that religion or just mouthing comfortable thoughts without taking actions. And while it won't convert the unconverted, I think that the idea that a church is willing to take a hard look at these concepts is likely to generate more respect than a repetition of a message that they don't believ ein.

    I'm not religious, but I find myself thinking of how I'd see your assertion that you want to "serve God with (your) gifts." Is serving God as part of a bad, eye-rolling piece of work really serving? Maybe your role isn't to participate in this one, but to learn about what's wrong with it, and take action to make the next one better.
     
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  3. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Be honest and don't preach.
     
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  4. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    Reading these insightful comments made me wonder about something. Christianity during time that great literature with Christian themes was written, was unchallenged. It was so dominant a paradigm, that questioning it could lead to real harm, ok, less so than in earlier times, but still, it was largely an unquestioned dogma. Today, Christianity is far from it. It has been deconstructed (even ridiculed) alongside with other monotheistic religions, countless times as illogical and spiritually limiting. So perhaps, Christianity today is much less interested and tolerant of true exploration of the faith, since the science is strong and legal and Christianity has lost the kind of social power it once had.

    So perhaps the stories that explore relationship with Christian God in uncomfortable ways, that force the reader to make their own choices as they are reading it, anything oblique that encourages soul-searching is today deemed to be outside the Christian literature field, because the field itself, in the same way as did the influence, is much more narrow. Kinda like how Mary J. Blige or Whitney Huston aren't considered 'Christian music' even though they are/were both devout believers and their music was strongly motivated by Christianity.

    It reminds me of a globally successful book with Christian themes - 'The Da Vinci Code'. I loved reading it, it made me think and explore Christianity more than any other contemporary book. And how did the officials of Christendom react? I wonder if such a book was written in the 19th century (with time-appropriate language and milieu) whether it would entice more of an honest debate, rather than being dismissed outright as blasphemy.
     
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  5. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I really liked reading this contribution to the discussion. As usual, ChickenFreak has done a stellar job of illustrating her points with good examples. And the idea of using the conclusion as the argument itself is spot-on, in so many cases like this.
     
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  6. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Like A Christmas Carol. It's heavily supporting the Christian holiday and severly critcising those who didn't celebrate the associated holidays, namely Christmas. Scrooge, who is jewish (debatebly, but he does have a Hebrew name and fits the popular stereotypes of the day), is made to look evil until he adopts Christian customs.
     
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  7. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    And, interestingly, is not converted by logical arguments (even about how Christian it is to do good works) but by having the Bejazus scared out of him by good old superstition!
     
  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    A new way for me to look at one of my all-time favourite stories!
     
  9. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Mckk : I just saw this, sorry I missed it before:
    I'm not religious but from what I understand of Christianity, and your dilemma, perhaps God brought you to this play for a reason. You seem to struggle with your own standards, but perhaps learning how to negotiate though that in order to free yourself and allow yourself to share the joys of Chrismas with your congregation through this play, may help bring you closer to God. Like Jesus didn't discriminate on the basis of wealth, health, background, maybe you can learn to love that play for the people in it, in the same way? It might be a lovely Christmas meditation for you, letting it all, them all, into your heart.

    I may have rambled a bit, I don't have the religious vocabulary, but the dilemma and opportunity feel almost allegorical.
     
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  10. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    :friend:

    I don't have a wall of text for you, just a comment which you already know. One can find something to support just about any position one wants to short of Satan worship in the Bible.
     
  11. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak - I think what you said is spot on - the argument is the conclusion and that's why it falls so flat. Thanks for your praise re my homeless Jesus sketch. Well, I've pitched it to my pastor, let's see what he says. It doesn't have to be Christmas, it could be done any time of the year really :) Interesting re what you say about perhaps my role is to see what's wrong and then to do it next year. The girl who leads this stuff will very likely leave Prague next year because she's graduating and there's no one who would obviously take over, so there'll definitely be a gap, if I'm still in Prague there.

    @jazzabel - it's certainly a possibility that Christians might be less tolerant of thinking outside the box precisely because Christianity is under more criticism these days. I think it's also partly the mindset of the Bible-based teaching. The idea that everything must be based on the Bible and any assertions you say must be backed up by it, preferably with multiple verses across the Bible and not just one passage, always interpreted within context. It's actually a good mindset because it safeguards you from erroneous teaching (for example, if someone claimed they're murdering someone because God said so, you can be sure he's not speaking from God because the Bible says... etc)

    But on the other hand, the downside is then you have the tendency to dismiss legitimate arguments with a few easy Bible verses and then you'd consider the matter closed, because the idea of actually questioning the Bible isn't really encouraged. It makes sense - if the Bible is your measuring stick for whether you're a true believer, then questioning the Bible would be akin to questioning the very foundation of your faith.

    Anyway, how interesting that Da Vinci Code made you explore Christianity more than anything else. I confess I haven't read the book - Dan Brown's writing is just too awful for me. At the time of its publication, I certainly reacted as the rest of Christendom did. I think the thing people were angry about was how the book claimed that these were all facts, or at least that's what I heard - that Dan Brown claimed all the historical facts in it were accurate, or something. I still have no intention of reading it, because the writing's awful lol.

    @Lemex - I do like the idea that even the badly written stuff is just another voice. I just keep wondering if I'm wrong for being so critical, because the purpose of the play wasn't to be a piece of art - maybe it's just to be there and to talk about Christmas at Christmas. That maybe I'm criticising it for not being something it was never trying to be?

    The two Christian stories I told you about, those two books, the pity is they're especially designed for evangelism. It's meant to make the unbeliever think and ask questions. I remember as teenagers, my friends were happily talking about how they've lent the book to yet another unbelieving friend and then praying it would have an impact. It was one of those books we encouraged each other to give out.

    I'm not sure that Christians who write this kinda stuff are insecure about their own faith - but I do find it strange that there're some Christians who stick only to the Christian genre. There're Christians who only read Christian books, only listen to Christian music, I even had a friend who only watched Christian movies. They feel as though reading/listening to secular stuff would be to fill their minds with things that God would find unworthy or evil, because secular media's values are different to that of the Bible's. A similar way of thinking goes with Christian writers who only write Christian stories - usually, they do it because they want to glorify God with their gifts and they want their stories to reflect God and His glory and promote messages that would honour Him. I very nearly fell for this way of thinking myself - not through pressure, I had plenty of Christian friends who loved Harry Potter and went to watch Mission Impossible and my parents never had a problem with this stuff - but it was all around me. For a few years I actually stopped listening to secular music and stopped reading fantasy novels, because magic was supposed to be of the devil. How to write a fantasy Christian book was a common question lol.
     
  12. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Lol yeah maybe. And yep definitely struggling with my own standards - it goes back to whether I'm criticising the play for not being something it had never tried to be. That it's just a bit of fun. I love the people in it :) They're a great bunch. And I love my pastor - he's a kind, gentle, godly man who's never tried to Bible bash anybody and he has a habit of letting everybody serve, even if you're not very good at it lol. I love it that in our church, we have 2 church leaders who are both in their early to mid-twenties, and both of them are still at university. They sit amongst others who are married, in their forties with a job and their own kids, simply because the leaders and my pastor recognise their heart to serve. It's very special - not every church has leaders who are so open. I think they're doing everything right in the places that actually matter.

    As for letting this play into my heart... ahahahaaaa... *sigh* Maybe. I very likely will. I'd happily go watch it lol :D
     
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  13. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    And while that may be true, the New Testament has over 300 passages on poverty, social justice, and what is essentially wealth redistribution. Considering that most of the things you could find to support "any position" have only one passage (or part of one), I'd say God's priorities are pretty clear here.
     
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  14. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Mckk : About Dan Brown...Well, the writing isn't really that awful, no more than a lot of stuff out there. He is my guilty pleasure because, despite all the failings, he spins an addictive, fast-paced story. I think the characters in the book claimed it was all fact, and Dan Brown might have been ambiguous to stir up the publicity, but the book is speculative fiction, based on some conspiracy theories that have been around for a long time. I think what annoyed the church the most was the character of Silus, and his patron, who was a leader of a militant wing of Christian church, but Brown might have borrowed the name of a real organisation or some such, anyway, I think that enraged some churches more than the speculation that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married. It was all a long time ago, I don't remember the details of it all.
     
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  15. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I don't know. To be honest, I have found that books I have read and thought were bad at first suddenly became much better after I studied and reflected on them looking at them from and at different angles. These days I'm much more cautious about disposing of something into the poo-poo bin. I don't have to like something to see the merit in it, just as I can like something and not see any merit in it. Some things are not subjective, and the trick is to find out what is objective and what is subjective. I once heard that you can interpret a novel much more than you can understand it, and I have found this to be generally the case.

    Interesting. I have very little contact with this kind of literature, so I would be interested to see how often it works.

    It's the kind of mindset - of only listening to one genre that is utterly alien to me. It just doesn't make sense to my world view, however, with how to write good Christian fantasy, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien are not bad examples. The Lord of the Rings is an expressly Catholic work. Also, if you read a more modern translation, I imagine Dante could serve you well. Also, Wagner's Ring Cycle if you want something a little different. Those are just 'fantasy' works, though, I'm sure the options in quality literature is endless. The point would be allegory, and not some hamfisted lecture on why the reader should believe unless eternal damnation - which I have seen. And as an unbeliever that's when I switch off, and do you really want to write for only one audience?
     
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  16. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

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    Then why aren't all Christians Socialists?
     
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  17. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Skeptic's Annotated Bible:
    I'm not arguing with you about the accepted Christian values of charity and good will toward others. I'm only saying that people find what they want to find in the Bible. Not many Christians have called Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell out when they claimed God made them rich and poor people deserved what they got, (worded a little differently of course).

    It's common for the right wing Christian groups to interpret charity as giving to organizations that promote their political and economical agendas as well as growing the membership.

    The National Christian Charitable Foundation for example is one such front group.

    But my apologies for the digression, it's off topic and pushes too many people's buttons.
     
  18. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    We are. The Far Right just aren't as Christian as they boast to being.
     
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  19. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Well considering the Popes recent comments on the evils of capitalism I would argue that most are, they just don't know it.

    And believing that worship will bring you fortune is not capitalism.
     
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  20. Killer300

    Killer300 Senior Member

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    Okay, I admit I'm not a Christian, but I wonder, would the branch of Christianity impact this? I mean, I assume Christian media made for say, Protestants would be rather different than stuff made for Catholics(could be wrong of course.)

    I bring this up, because I have seen a lot of themes from Gnosticism, albeit perhaps because that's a branch of Christianity that severely critiques a lot of the rest of the religion, which may be going back the original issue, people scared to question their faith(as others have seemed to have brought up.) That, and, to my knowledge, none of the works were written by people that were actually modern day Gnostics, or, if they were, whether they were trying to explore their beliefs with others.

    I bring this up because, essentially, the main problem I see of Christian media is that there's nothing there for non-believers to care about or attach to. To me, that would be exploring themes from the Bible, like say forgiveness, while not assuming the reader is already believing in the bible, or for that matter, that perhaps they even know anything from the Bible.

    By contrast, I saw Gnostic themes explored in a way that... well, didn't assume at all you even knew what Gnosticism was. To be fair, perhaps that's a negative for this type of media, I don't know, and additionally, again, the above issue does apply. And I admit, I'm perhaps biased for the message of Gnosticism, however its worth noting, I didn't know Gnosticism was a religion until incredibly recently, but was already attracted to themes presented from it elsewhere.

    My point, I guess, is the need for subtleness, and just trying to add my two cents to something I'm a little shaky on.:oops:
     
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  21. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I would say there's definitely an impact depending on which denomination of Christianity you come from - they're split up for a reason, after all. They put emphasis on different aspects and thus are likely to teach those areas more etc.

    As for assuming people even knew what the Bible's about - that's a tricky one. Most people in the west will certainly know the basics of Christianity - Christmas, Easter, Jesus Son of God, Holy Trinity involving Father, Son and Holy Spirit, death on the cross and resurrection and salvation by grace. Simply because it's part of the culture of a lot of countries and many European countries have some Christian history in them. To assume that people don't know anything from the Bible would easily come across as patronising, rather than accepting of newcomers.

    At the same time, churches do often preach as though people didn't know the basic message of the Bible, namely the Gospel. They do say things in the simplest ways - I've personally found that's fairly ineffective for purposes of education and evangelism. People are often a lot more interested in hearing what you have to say if you simply said it like they already understood, with all the jargon and fervor you'd normally say it with if you had been talking to a fellow Christian. I've found that people generally find that far less patronising, far more genuine, and more interesting. My thinking behind this is also: seriously, if they're that interested, they can always ask you to explain. And if my purpose was to interest my friend in Christianity, sticking to the basics is boring anyway. Talking about all the cool and amazing things I believe in that gets MY heart on fire - that's far more likely to spark interest. I guess it's a similar principle to writing what interests you :D

    The mistake in all this probably comes from what you've touched on - that assumption that, "Because the Bible says so, the matter's closed." Never for a second realising that for some, the Bible alone simply isn't good enough evidence for anything. It's because it all stems from the belief that the Bible, being God's Word, should be enough, and is enough, in a way. It stems from the belief that nothing can speak to a person's heart better than the Bible. In churches people like to tell stories of how there was such and such a fervent atheist who's set out to disprove God's existence, and for his research he obviously had to read the Bible, and through reading the Bible, he became a believer. We also like to quote the verse that God's Word is a double-edged sword, able to cut through spirit and soul.

    I do think the Bible is enough - quite frankly if God chose to speak, He could speak through a tiny rock and it'd still strike home. But I do not think it is wrong or bad to offer evidence outside of this, and I think it is perfectly reasonable for a non-Christian to want a bit more evidence outside of the Bible. But at the same time, it's the fact that if you want to get to the basics, the core of the whole faith, then there's really nothing better than the Bible. The religion is based on this very book.

    It really goes back to whether the person was interested in the first place, I think.

    Anyway, what you said about exploring relevant themes like forgiveness, based on teachings of the Bible but without assuming everyone already believes in the Bible, sounds like an excellent idea. It's true that any such workshops we do hold are always geared towards Christians. The non-Christian only ever gets the Gospel message because that's all we're ever concerned about spreading, never thinking there might be other things people find more relevant.

    But that goes to a whole other topic, to be honest. There're a great many Christian books asking the question: Is the church still relevant today? Why has it become irrelevant? Why are we losing young people from the church? How do we make it relevant again? etc. It's not that there're no thinking Christians out there. We do have self-critique. But all this talk usually stays within Christian circles. Generally Christians don't talk about the flaws of the church to unbelievers - I'm actually not sure why, because it's not like we're told not to lol. There's no such discouragement. It's only recently I've become open about discussing these issues with non-Christians when in the past I would've kept it within the church, for fear that non-Christians who are already critical of the church would dislike it further.
     
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  22. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

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    I used to attend an Evangelical Baptist church and the pastor there did not recognize the Catholic church or the Anglican church, among many others, as being Christian churches at all. The differences run far deeper than mere emphasis, there are fundamental differences of belief that separate denominations. Of course, preachers don’t want to tell you this.

    You mentioned a list of Christian basics, (Christmas, Easter, Jesus Son of God, Holy Trinity involving Father, Son and Holy Spirit, death on the cross and resurrection and salvation by grace) but none of these ideas actually appear in the teachings of Jesus. They were all invented afterwards, so are any of them truly Christian?

    The Bible does not give a single message, even the Gospels give very different views on fundamental issues such as who Jesus was. I recommend you read some Bart Ehrman. His works may open your eyes in respect to the nature of Bible texts.

    You can tell whatever stories you like about atheists, but it’s well known that you cannot prove the non-existence of anything and few would attempt such a thing. In reality, what you find is that many religious people attempt to develop their faith through Bible study and end up as atheists because of what they discover. This is why so many atheists have such good Bible knowledge.

    I agree that the information presented in churches and by Christians in general is of a positive nature, like politicians at election time trying to influence you to vote for a particular party. They’re not going to mention anything that might cast them in a bad light are they? This, I think is part of the problem, generation upon generation of believers have developed over-positive views that are so unrealistic as to be unbelievable when expressed as anything other than broad brush general statements.
     
  23. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    None of the atheists I know, or see on television became atheists for that reason. And for the most part they have appalling knowledge, both of the bible or of any other religious works. Mahers conversation with Ben Afflec is a great example, where he uses a limited understanding of the Quran to mislead both himself and the audience.

    But most atheists have read books on atheism that seem to enforce their world view, so forgive me if I don't consider them learned if they can recite the chapter and verse that supports atheism somehow.
     
  24. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

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    #1- I've not read much Christian novels save for What Once was Lost. From what I understand, the reason it's so difficult is because the author (any general Christian fiction author) puts in the religion but forgets to put in the plot and the characters. He or she often relies on flat, one-dimensional characters to move the plot forward. Let's take a look at What Once was Lost. The whole book basically revolves around a woman and a small child in 1870s/80s American Mid-West. Both of them are 'broken' both spiritually and physically (the book's description, not mine.) The religious aspect to it is that they both find strength in God to become whole again. The plot? The orphanage burns down and the physically-broken kid is accused of starting the fire. His crime would be plausible if he'd not been blind and waking her up in what is literally the first few pages of the book! I'd have to read the whole book and post a review in my blog, but suffice to say, it misses the crucial component of a book.

    #2- How can we improve it? By remembering what makes a book work. If we remove the religious aspect of What Once was Lost, then the plot becomes...eh. There's nothing in the two main characters that make them interesting. The blind kid is basically the walking 'helpless, insecure, disabled kid who wants to prove himself to the world, but needs a non-disabled person to help him' stereotype. He's depicted as being incapable of almost anything including dressing himself or going to the restroom without aid and he's ten years old! The woman? I honestly don't know of anything else about her character other than she wants to help the orphans, but she especially wants to help this blind kid. I remember asking myself why she was compelled to help him and hoping to find something, anything that would tell me why she was willing to bend over backward more for him than the other kids. Something that was not just because he was blind.

    OK, now if I were writing this book, I would've put the religious aspect aside so I could work on developing the relationship between the woman and this disabled orphan she took a liking to. Brainstorm questions, write down scenarios. Work out a plot from it. Then find a way to include religion into it. Maybe the boy's name is Thomas from 'Doubting Tom' and the woman's name is...Esther. Or Miriam. Or Mary. I would try to weave the religion in with the plot so it made sense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
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  25. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    At some point Lemex and I are going to have a long conversation about Paradise Lost, it's themes within the paradigm of Tudor England, and it's depiction of Satan, both as adversary and protagonist, in light of Henry VIII destruction of the "great chain of being".
     

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