Christian genre: why is it so bad and how to write it well?

Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by Mckk, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    [sidetrack] I've been an atheist since I was about 12 and I know a lot about the Bible because religious beliefs interest me, not because I read the Bible and became disillusioned.

    As for not being able to prove gods don't exist, I don't need to because there is no reason to believe gods do exist in the first place. And gods being real is not the best explanation for god beliefs. [/sidetrack]

    Sorry for the side track, it's just that it annoys me when people say no one can prove gods don't exist, or tries to explain atheists as if they were an homogenous population. Some of us are atheist because believing in gods is no more logical to us than believing in magical dragons.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  2. Killer300

    Killer300 Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    95
    I bring it up because, again, Gnosticism really blindsided me by what it talked about, along with what it had to say about the world we live in.

    While this is true, what's interesting to note is, judging by what I know of VERY early Christianity, those same themes weren't always integral(again, with Gnosticism, but still, does matter,), or even in the same way. I only bring that up because it seems a lot of this should be about showing Christianity in an unexpected light.

    True, true.

    And, to be fair, perhaps my attraction to Gnosticism came from knowing so little about it, and wanting to know more what it had to say. But then, it also seemed to have immense themes... that I didn't even notice coming from it.

    So, perhaps that'd be looking at what messages Christianity, or the Bible for that matter, had which aren't touched upon as much?

    A book that has had millions of different interpretations, including one that seems to turn it on its head. Repeatedly. I only bring this up because the Bible shouldn't really be a limit to storytelling, because it isn't clear cut in what it say frequently.

    Another part of this I think is the theme has to be shown in a way that isn't coming off as... well, easy per say.

    To use the theme of forgiveness, its easy to say, for example, that anyone can make up for what they've done in the past, but to actually follow through with that? Or for that matter, to make up for your problems?

    Essentially, I think it should be explored why people can have such a hard time being faithful, for example. Its a question that impacts not only many Christians, but also those outside of the faith who maybe want to be morale, but repeatedly can't.

    Its worth noting that it was the last, the lack of ability to openly critique one's self, was a factor in being incredibly angry with it as a child. Granted, there were other bits, but I do wonder if that turns off other people, say young people?

    Using Gnosticism again, one of the things that made it so intriguing was how it was critical of mainstream Christianity, even though it was a branch of it, and actually an incredibly early one judging by what I learned in a World Mythology class. But additionally, it showed me that Christianity isn't completely what media shows it to be, both for and against the religion.

    Granted, its a weird example, and one I use a lot, but it just keeps surprising me. I mean, its openly cynical, which is something I've never seen religious literature, film or... anything do before.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,262
    Likes Received:
    13,084
    Yep. That's an issue.

    See, I'm not a believer. As a non-believer, the part of Christianity that interests me is the part that advocates, well, Being Nice. Helping the poor, eliminating cruelty to people and animals, all that. I'm not interested in the God and angels and Trinity part.

    In fact, it was interesting that you (it was you, right?) mentioned the book with the kids dying in an accident and, oops, the ones who didn't convert are in trouble. The thing that made me walk away from my mother's church once and for all was the kid who tried to tell me in Sunday school that if I didn't believe in Hell I was going to Hell, and the Sunday school teacher who agreed. That was the end of that; from then on, I stayed home and cooked the after-church bacon and eggs. I do not respond well to what I see as threats.

    My entrance to Christianity, if I ever had one, would be about the being-kind-to-people thing. I've theorized, here, in at least one religious debate here on writingforums, a God who just wants us to be nice, who inspired Jesus to try to teach us to be nice and to explain the flaming wreck that we'll eventually make of the planet if we aren't, and who is now headdesking at much of the theology, saying, "That's not what I MEANT!"

    Somebody who doesn't believe, doesn't believe, and isn't going to be lured in to believe by "You'd better believe, or there will be consequences!" They might be lured in by, "We're really nice, we're great conversationalists, our potlucks are delicious, we provided sixteen thousand meals for the needy last year and we're trying to raise funds for a twenty-bed homeless shelter; wanna help?"

    I realize that some may feel that that isn't a success unless the person eventually fully converts. But the odds of that are theoretically higher if they're eating cupcakes at the potluck and dishing out soup at the shelter.

    I guess I'm saying that the order isn't necessarily convert first, participate in the helping-out-society later. I suspect that the order is the reverse. And that's why the same play isn't likely to function for the converted and the unconverted.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  4. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5,160
    Likes Received:
    4,243
    Location:
    Australia
    Here's something I noticed about Christian TV shows, as opposed to books: They're oh so goody two shoes! Wholesome happy wonderlands of smiles and love and plenty. There's no real challenges, darkness, despair, as we know it in the real world. Everything is squeaky clean and everyone is nice to each other, with perfect hair and lovely homes, even if they are meant to be poor. It rarely even fuckin' rains! The major trauma is some kid maybe stealing a candy bar to give to a homeless kid, who, btw, is well dressed and isn't exposed to the true torments of vagrancy, and in the end the kid learns that stealing is wrong no matter what but his good intentions are rewarded with a new bike and they take in the homeless kid and everyone is happy and learns a valuable moral lessen. Cavity inducing Dreck! Why can't some of the Christian shows deal with human reality, like the true challenges of faith in alcoholism, drug abuse, poverty, spousal abuse, without sugarcoating it with shiny white smiles and fluffy angora jumpers knitted by grandma?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
    Mckk and GingerCoffee like this.
  5. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Maybe that's why the "Left Behind" series was so popular. It was Christian but also had plenty of conflict.
     
  6. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    And it's going to be glorious. And then we will reach fame unknown of previously for our insightful comments, and be haunted my armies of screaming women like The Beatles. :D

    What absolute rubbish. Most atheists I've ever met have a horrendous knowledge of the bible. Most atheists I've met have not even read the bible cover to cover, much less tried to understand it from the diverse positions and interpretations that exist around it.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  7. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    I think that part of the problem is right there, in the acceptance that the Bible IS God's Word. Once you accept that, the Bible becomes (relatively) convincing.

    As a cyclist, I don't wear a helmet...not because I have a death wish, or because I believe that God won't take me yet because "only the Good die young"...but because I did the research. ONE research study found that helmets save lives, and its methodology was woefully flawed. EVERY other study (except those that, effectively, referenced the study above) found that wearing helmets INCREASES head injuries. One of my favourites is one from Holland, where 0.5% of the cycle-riding population wear helmets, whereas 50% of the cycle-related head injuries were wearing helmets.

    The relevance of this (apparent) digression from the OP is that pretty much everybody knows somebody for whom "crash helmet saved my life". Anecdotal evidence is just that...an anecdote. Here's another anecdote...I recently (accidentally) became the crash test dummy who proved that "crash helmet DIDN'T save my life"!
     
  8. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5,160
    Likes Received:
    4,243
    Location:
    Australia
    Wearing a helmet sure as shit saved my life. But regardless, this is a clear case of choosing the results that reflect your belief. There isn't just one study that confirms the effectiveness of helmets in high impact collisions. That's just a ridiculous claim. As for the Dutch study, most of the riders who do not wear helmets ride at low speeds in low vehicle traffic areas or on dedicated bike paths. Accidents are rare. Generally those in the .5% are road bike users riding at high speeds on busy roads, like highways, increasing both the likelyhood of a severe accident with a car or truck and the severity of the accident. Even with a helmet many will be killed or severely injured, so the statistics make perfect sense. More severe injuries happen on the roads using road bikes, of which more wear helmets, of which the accidents are worse. Statistics are only useful if you know what they mean.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
  9. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    Apologies for de-railing the thread.

    Selbbin, you emphasize my point, everybody knows somebody for whom "crash helmet saved my life. But your anecdote implies that your accident was significantly more serious than mine.
     
  10. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5,160
    Likes Received:
    4,243
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm not implying it was more severe. I have no information on your accident. All I know are the facts about mine. But I used to work in news and I have seen, first hand, both shattered helmets on the footpath, and shattered heads. They are not images you forget very quickly and are pretty convincing. Edit: as an afterthought, that's probably quite similar to faith.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  11. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Speaking of bad Christian fiction, this is a hilarious review of the new Left Behind film: @GingerCoffee @Link the Writer
    http://www.avclub.com/review/god-only-knows-how-they-made-worse-version-left-be-209977

    Link the writer - What Once Was Lost sounds terrible lol :D I think of myself as a kind of Doubting Thomas. I once asked God is it okay that I doubt, and does my doubting mean I'm no longer His. And then He reminded me of Doubting Thomas. I've come to think that a healthy measure of doubt is a good thing - it means you're thinking, you're critiquing, and you're finally aware of your own limitations in that, you're not always right. Even if everything I believe is based on the Bible, my interpretations may not always be right. I actually sometimes wonder if now that I'm doubting so often, I've actually matured in my faith lol - not by growing in certainty but by growing to question it, and then despite all the unknowns, despite all the things that shake me, I carry on believing. What's faith if it's not been tested? And is it really faith if you're so dead certain in the first place? Yes, faith is certainty, but perhaps what people leave out is: "Faith is certainty in the midst of doubt." That's my current place in my faith anyway.

    @Aled James Taylor -
    @Shadowfax -
    @ChickenFreak -
    @Killer300 -
    Crikey I think I'm done writing essays for the day. Off to work. Sorry if I've left anyone out!
     
  12. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    The anecdote I was referring to was the "Atheist who read the Bible to refute it and ended up converted." A bit like Paul on the road to Damascus...but how many men got struck blind and just cursed God as an inconsiderate megalomaniac?

    I'm not suggesting that Christians believing in the Bible is a problem per se...it is, as you realise, their consequent presentation of it as self-evident...which gets back to the OP, why is Christian literature terrible?
     
    Mckk likes this.
  13. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Hahaha this made me laugh. Reminds me of another story. A pilot was flying his own plane somewhere when the engine broke down. He was plummeting towards the sea when he prayed - an atheist, praying to God - "If you save me, I'll believe in you!" (or something on those lines) The engine suddenly started working again and the man flew home without injury. Later he said he just got lucky; God doesn't exist.

    As a Christian, I hear it and feel sad, because "obviously" it was God and it's another case of "No matter the evidence, if someone doesn't want to believe, they simply won't."

    But later on I was thinking about it, and from an atheist's POV, it was "obvious" that he really was just lucky. (I dunno though. What's an atheist's take on "luck"? Doesn't that imply some kinda force outside of science and the material world?)

    I actually read that as a rhetorical question, though I'm not sure if that's how you meant it. But that actually is why it's terrible, isn't it? lol. The reader already knows the "correct" answer before they ever read it, making it a fairly pointless read. But questioning the Bible is often seen as a lack of faith, which might be a factor in why few Christians would write "Christian" fiction in order to question the Bible.

    I wonder, what kind of religious fiction would a non-religious person be interested in? What would you like to see religious fiction explore?

    Is "Christian fiction" even a legitimate genre? Obviously it exists, but should it even be a genre? Taking Dante and Les Mis, for example, nobody says they're Christian literature. They're just literature with a Christian theme or Christian message.
     
  14. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    UK
    @Jack Asher You know me for a start.

    @Lemex I’ve never heard of any atheist who found faith through trying to prove the non-existence of God, but to refer to such a story as rubbish would be to argue from ignorance, which is a logical fallacy. To argue that my view is rubbish because you haven’t heard of such cases is equally unfounded. I’ve met many (not most (please read carefully)) atheists who have had a church background but have ultimately found cognitive dissonance too great a burden to bear. There is even a help group for former and current members of the clergy who find they can no longer believe in the supernatural. These people have certainly read the Bible form cover to cover.

    http://www.clergyproject.org/

    Returning to the topic, you could write a story about good people doing good things, but this may only encourage faith in humanity rather than faith in God. You could include the idea that only through faith in Jesus is it possible to behave in a moral way, but that would be insulting to all non-Christians and some Christians may look on it doubtfully.

    There are differences of opinion within Christianity concerning pretty much every significant issue, (women’s rights, human rights, military service, other faiths, faith healing, homosexuality, capital punishment, and pretty much every issue facing governments). Any story that deals with any of these would be criticized by a portion of its target readership.

    The reliance on simplistic, slogan like statements tends to gloss over issues and create the impression that all is well. That may seem okay in the context of a sermon, but in a story the particular theology would have to be illustrated with a practical example and explained in detail. This may raise more questions than answers and even if the story concluded on a positive note, it may be damaging to the confidence of the believer. Many Christians won’t want to read stories that cast doubt on their faith.

    You could have a story where characters are motivated by their religious beliefs, which override their personal feelings and thoughts on an issue. But in this post 911 age, such blind adherence to dogma may be looked upon with great suspicion.

    If God can work through anyone to further His cause, He could work through authors who write stories to promote Christianity. You would then expect Christian literature to be amongst the best produced as it would have Gods help in its production. If it actually turns out to be among the worst, maybe there’s something wrong with this theory. And how many other assumptions have you made that turn out to be wrong?

    @Mckk I’m glad that you've adopted a critical attitude and haven’t, like so many other believers, simply assumed your own views to be correct and everyone else’s to be wrong. My reference to opening eyes was really a reference to how blind I was before I read from the author Bart Ehrman. I then realized some blatantly obvious things about the Bible that I’d previously been encouraged to overlook. Your posts reminded me of how I used to be. The Historical-Critical approach to Bible study may suite you well, it’s worth a look at least.

    It’s not so much a question of making the correct interpretation of the words of Jesus. The items on your list of Christian basics are not mentioned by Jesus so there are no words to interpret. If you claim that the Earth orbits the Sun, you’d be right, but could you claim this to be a ‘Christian’ belief, since Jesus mentions no such thing? The question is: Do you want to base your faith on the actual teachings of Jesus (what Jesus wanted people to believe) or do you want to base your faith on church traditions?

    Many people have come across things that have stuck a cord with them. There are many fans of the Star-wars movies who felt this way about the idea of ‘the force’. The feeling that something is ‘right’ is not a reliable indicator of reality.
     
  15. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    UK
    There are a great many stories circulating about miraculous events. Do not take these too seriously as it’s likely they are all fiction.

    In contrast, believers can thank God for recovery from illness, after medical treatment has been administered and worked as expected. Why not thank the doctors?

    Sports people thank God for sporting success. If God did indeed intervene supernaturally to cause this success, that would be cheating. Do these people believe in a God who cheats at sport?

    Just remember, no one has ever proven, conclusively that any supernatural event has ever occurred at any time in history or any place on Earth. If the supernatural is actually as commonplace as some believers would have you believe, don’t you think someone would have been able to prove something by now?

    No matter what the evidence there is or the total lack of evidence, some people will continue to believe whatever they like.
     
  16. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Let me cut your post off here, because what I said was this:
    I never said anything about an atheist finding faith after trying to prove the non-existence of God (though, actually, for the record I have heard of that happening. Stories of the kind are not that hard to find online). What I said was absolute rubbish was your assertion most atheists have a great understanding of, and knowledge of the bible. Which I know is not the case, many atheists - especially the keyboard warriors on Youtube haven't even read the bible cover to cover.

    Don't pretend like someone has said anything other than what they actually said, it doesn't bode well for your skills as a critical thinker.
     
    Jack Asher and Mckk like this.
  17. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    It seems you would continue to believe whatever you like, regardless of evidence or the different points of views that exist. I resent the way you seem to be passive aggressive about this whole thing, implying without ever saying outright that you think Christians are simply stupid, foolish people conned into believing in something fictional and will now do whatever they can and must to hold onto their fantasy.

    You may say, "That's your interpretation of my posts. I never said such a thing." But if that is not really how you meant it, then I ask you to clarify. And if my interpretation is correct, I ask you to please respect the fact that people's opinions differ, and people's interpretation of the evidence, and in fact what constitutes as evidence, can also differ, without making any assumptions or statements about each party's intelligence or prejudices.

    I have been nothing but open about the whole topic, and as you can see yourself from the thread, it's far from it that I cannot take critique about my religion. I simply ask you to please refrain from these rhetorical questions that don't really add to the discussion. You think something is nonsense, I prefer it if you say so, and then contribute why you think so, so that the discussion might be interesting and fruitful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
    Simpson17866 likes this.
  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I do believe you've been reading some bad science there. I have to go but when I get back I'll do some research to see what it is you are looking at.
     
  19. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    2,931
    A good many of them do. Are you trying to say that "all believers" or that "some believers" downplay the importance of medical science?

    Again, "all sports people" or "some sports people"?

    Just because those specific people believe it doesn't mean that everybody does, and there are a great many other people who don't.

    If God cared about obedience vs. disobedience more than He cared about right vs. wrong, then He would certainly by expressing Himself more dramatically than He does now.

    Like you?
     
    Mckk likes this.
  20. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    UK
    The statement I was actually referring to was from @Mckk post #46 'In churches people like to tell stories of how there was such and such a fervent atheist who's set out to disprove God's existence, and for his research he obviously had to read the Bible, and through reading the Bible, he became a believer. '

    I apologize for attributing this to you. It was a genuine mistake.
     
  21. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    UK
    The point I was trying to make is made whether these are 'some' or 'many' believers, I'm not trying to claim all Christians believe in this way. The medical example is of people holding beliefs in supernatural explanations despite readily available physical evidence. The sports example is of people holding beliefs in supernatural explanations despite a significant theological issue.

    I only gave these examples in direct response to a post suggesting that atheists are the ones who disregard evidence. My point is that, in general, atheists are the ones who's beliefs are based on evidence and reasoning and it is the religious who often abandon both of these.
     
  22. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    743
    Location:
    UK
    There are a great many views in existence in the world. Just because someone presents a particular view does not mean that everyone else must agree with them or that those who disagree only believe in alternative views because of personal preference.

    I do respect your point of view and you must respect mine. If you present your views then you must also accept that people may disagree with you and explain to you why they disagree.

    I know from experience studying the Bible that there is a lot more to it than meet’s the eye and my intention was only to encourage deeper questioning. My intention is not to imply that Christians are stupid or foolish but there is much that learned preachers know that does not reach their congregations because it’s not of a ‘positive’ nature.

    I did feel insulted by your story of the atheist pilot. Are you trying to imply that atheists disregard clear evidence in favor of dogmatic beliefs no matter what? (This is actually a far more prominent trait of the religious). In general atheists will change their minds on any issue because of evidence and in general it is the extremely religious who hold to their views ‘no matter what’. Also religious believers often pick and choose their beliefs on the basis of what they like.

    You now seem to be trying to ‘shoot the messenger’ by making a personal attack on me, rather than engaging with the points I raised.
     
    Mckk likes this.
  23. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Edited: can we not argue over religion here?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  24. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5,160
    Likes Received:
    4,243
    Location:
    Australia
    LOL @Lemex. Yeah it was getting a bit that way.

    Maybe Christian fiction only appears bad. We don't notice the good stuff because it has broader appeal due to it's quality and themes. Like romance novels, which are promoted to lit fiction or the likes when it is acclaimed.
     
    Lemex likes this.
  25. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I found dozens of studies that found demonstrable statistically significant decreases in injury and death including decreased risk of neck injury in bike riders wearing helmets vs not wearing a helmet. The studies involve thousands of riders.

    It looks like the controversy is as usual coming from a few people who ignore the science and proclaim helmets are unnecessary. You can find these unsupported-conclusion believers in just about anything from global warming to the danger of vaccinations to denial that evolution theory is correct.

    It's off topic so I'm not going to post the links in this thread. But I've bookmarked a bunch of the studies and I may start a new thread about it since there seems to be a spate of helmet benefit deniers out there currently spreading that unsupported belief.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice